SWTOR. Too much theme park?

[mattgyver]

It would be a complete waste of resources for example, to make for example Hutta any bigger than it is at this time. The same goes for all the playable areas.

 

It also gives them a bunch of flexibility to add to them later, or create other parts of planets.

 

As much as I would like a redo of Tatooine, I agree they will have to implement this with new worlds that have a different design. I truly feel like I'm screaming into the darkness with this open world stuff but oh well.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

When fun ends what are you left with?

 

When a ride ends what are you left with?

 

 

 

 

Now what happens when there is something fun that never ends?

 

 

 

 

Single player games work well as a ride, MMORPGs don't work so well as a ride, they are fun so long as the ride contiunes, but once you reach the end of the ride the fun runs out too.

 

L50 is horrible in SWTOR, sorry but it is, levelling is great. And after 1.2 ther are going to remove RvR making there even less to do.

 

There is no such thing as never ending fun, so by that logic, why bother with games at all?

 

When the Ride ends, you just go back to the end of the line and ride it again (alts) or chill out in the rest area and chat with people (Roleplay) or hit up the Arcade and get your game on (PvP). Or you can leave and wait till new rides open up (quit till expansions).

 

You guys expect Bioware and Blizzard and AreaNet to constantly give you things to do as soon as you finish, which is just impossible. Either they can release content every other week that is just terrible or work on quality content and you remain bored for a while. It's a no win situation for them. If they do the former, you complain about how they cut corners and give you crappy content and you claim as a customer you deserve better because you pay $15 a month. The latter, you claim to have nothing to do for ages and stay that they are lazy and dragging their feet and as a customer, you deserve content because you pay $15 a month.

 

So since there is no possible outcome where you get content that is quick and quality, you are stuck. If you want a never ending party game, there is none and will never be one. It's quite impossible. This is a Themepark MMO. If it's not the style you like, you are free to leave. No one will stop you. You may return at any moment you please. No one will tease you. No one will say "Look who came crawling back." You can literally do as you please. That's why most console gamers buy a ton of titles. When one game is done being fun, they play another one until an expansion or sequel to the other drops. MMO gamers should do the same. Bored of Warcraft after hitting up every raid, battleground and challenge map? Play Star Wars. Bored of the galaxy? Guild Wars 2 is right here. You can play Fallen Earth, APB: Reloaded, City of Heroes, Star Trek Online, Elder Scrolls Online etc. And when you've run the circuit, you can run back to Warcraft or TOR or whatever and find that you're having fun all over again!

[Rygel]

I agree.. we need something in between what we have now and the freedom of SWG for a truly epic game.

 

And people saying we should not compare this to SWG are wrong. This is the 2nd Star Wars MMO it makes more sense to bring ideas from it than WoW. I also disagree that an open ended game is impossible SWG pretty much was maybe even too open ended.

[mattgyver]

There is no such thing as never ending fun, so by that logic, why bother with games at all?

 

When the Ride ends, you just go back to the end of the line and ride it again (alts) or chill out in the rest area and chat with people (Roleplay) or hit up the Arcade and get your game on (PvP). Or you can leave and wait till new rides open up (quit till expansions).

 

You guys expect Bioware and Blizzard and AreaNet to constantly give you things to do as soon as you finish, which is just impossible. Either they can release content every other week that is just terrible or work on quality content and you remain bored for a while. It's a no win situation for them. If they do the former, you complain about how they cut corners and give you crappy content and you claim as a customer you deserve better because you pay $15 a month. The latter, you claim to have nothing to do for ages and stay that they are lazy and dragging their feet and as a customer, you deserve content because you pay $15 a month.

 

So since there is no possible outcome where you get content that is quick and quality, you are stuck. If you want a never ending party game, there is none and will never be one. It's quite impossible. This is a Themepark MMO. If it's not the style you like, you are free to leave. No one will stop you. You may return at any moment you please. No one will tease you. No one will say "Look who came crawling back." You can literally do as you please. That's why most console gamers buy a ton of titles. When one game is done being fun, they play another one until an expansion or sequel to the other drops. MMO gamers should do the same. Bored of Warcraft after hitting up every raid, battleground and challenge map? Play Star Wars. Bored of the galaxy? Guild Wars 2 is right here. You can play Fallen Earth, APB: Reloaded, City of Heroes, Star Trek Online, Elder Scrolls Online etc. And when you've run the circuit, you can run back to Warcraft or TOR or whatever and find that you're having fun all over again!

 

First off, glad you're happy with the game, good deal. Second, the accumulated $15 (180/yr) of the customers moves the game. Without it there is no game unless they somehow reorganize into a charitable organization and provide it out of good will. I bought the $150 CE, and two regular copies of the game and still have two subs active. But, even if I had only played the weekend trial I would still have the ability to post here. People like to make the "ingrate" argument but Bioware is not my patron nor benefactor. They don't pay my rent, and I don't owe them anything. Both parties can mutually decide to end our relationship at will.

 

So here is the stuck part you very wisely pointed out. I love Star Wars and I like this game, but I really want to see more out of it in the future. There is no statute or law prohibiting them from putting "sandbox" content in, and it's not a technical impossibility either. But there are champions of the status quo who are opposing such change because they are happy and others who are not are just wrong. Not too mention, I don't buy that adding sandbox content will foul up the game for those who don't want it.

 

I am free to leave, but I am also free to try and make efforts toward what I want.

Edited March 28, 2012 by mattgyver

[Darth_Moonshadow]

First off, glad you're happy with the game, good deal. Second, the accumulated $15 (180/yr) of the customers moves the game. Without it there is no game unless they somehow reorganize into a charitable organization and provide it out of good will. I bought the $150 CE, and two regular copies of the game and still have two subs active. But, even if I had only played the weekend trial I would still have the ability to post here. People like to make the "ingrate" argument but Bioware is not my patron nor benefactor. They don't pay my rent, and I don't owe them anything. Both parties can mutually decide to end our relationship at will.

 

So here is the stuck part you very wisely pointed out. I love Star Wars and I like this game, but I really want to see more out of it in the future. There is no statute or law prohibiting them from putting "sandbox" content in, and it's not a technical impossibility either. But there are champions of the status quo who are opposing such change because they are happy and others who are not are just wrong. Not too mention, I don't buy that adding sandbox content will foul up the game for those who don't want it.

 

I am free to leave, but I am also free to try and make efforts toward what I want.

 

True. Adding Sandbox style content will not hurt. But if the game is not designed to have Sandbox elements, adding them makes the entire endeavor unsatisfying. If Bioware were to add stuff such as housing and free roaming and the like as the game is now, it would be a complete train wreck as you put it "the champions of the status quo" would object and you "sandboxers"would find the content to feel awkward and forced. It'd take time and subtle retooling to do so. It'd require adding the sandbox in bit by bit, to see where the Themepark should end and the sandbox to begin and how much of content should each side get and if there is enough space or resources for both that makes each side feel happy with feeling like they are being cheated out of certain aspects that they have come to expect from their respective games.

[Devlonir]

it is what it is but was marketed as something it wasn't... it's a valid thread and a valid ask. Way too much theme park and the themes aren't done particularly well at all. Where's character costumes for say the likes of Hoth... or Tatooine??

 

The game needs to open out a bit if it is to survive beyond a year or so. Those who fail to see it's faults and flaws will be the ones that hold this 'MMORPG' back.

 

Gotta love people who put their own hopes and expectations about a game as what was marketed by Bioware.

 

Let me be very clear on this aspect: They never marketed the game to be any kind of sandbox.. at all. Actually, they marketed the game as "Not only KotOR 3, but KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10", hinting to the 8 seperate storylines withing the game. KotOR was not, I repeat, was NOT a sandbox game but a linear, classic Bioware style themepark RPG with a story you had some impact on. You know.. just like TOR is.. but then times 8 and in a multiplayer fashion.

 

Same goes for space combat, all those people expecting a new Tie Fighter vs X-Wing game simply did not listen to any of the marketing done.. at all. And then complain they were mismarketed. From the get-go, Space Combat was marketed as a fun, cinematic side-game and was said to be exactly what it is: A rail shooter. Not once was any marketing done to say it would be more than that. Yet still people come and complain about what it doesn't have, while marketing clearly said what it wasn't.

 

People should learn how to read and understand, and not just put their wishes and desires as what was 'promised'. I actually think the best quote about this reaction comes from the much-hated WoW "Ghostcrawler promised me a pony" GC, or the lead developer, never promised anyone a pony or anything else that people said they were promised or the game should have. But people still felt entitled to get what they wanted because they felt they were promised the 'pony', while no 'pony' was ever promised.

 

TL;DR, Bioware never promised you a pony.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

 

TL;DR, Bioware never promised you a pony.

 

I wish they did.

 

I wished they had given me Pinkie Pie.

[Goretzu]

There is no such thing as never ending fun, so by that logic, why bother with games at all?

 

When the Ride ends, you just go back to the end of the line and ride it again (alts) or chill out in the rest area and chat with people (Roleplay) or hit up the Arcade and get your game on (PvP). Or you can leave and wait till new rides open up (quit till expansions).

 

 

RvR tends to be never ending fun, because it's always different.

 

SWTOR has a levelling ride which reaches the end at L50 and there's really not a lot to do, apart from level again.

 

And as I said they are now giving up on RvR with 1.2 so that means there will be even less to do at L50.

[Goretzu]

True. Adding Sandbox style content will not hurt.

 

 

Well designed and thought out sandbox elements can only make this game a LOT better.

 

However, sorry to harp on about it again, but in 1.2 they are removing RvR, they aren't adding stuff they are taking it away (possibly never to return).

[Devlonir]

I wish they did.

 

I wished they had given me Pinkie Pie.

 

Many people wish more from the game, and many things will probably come over time. But I just dislike people who claim to have been promised or marketed something else than what they got.

 

Before this game, I was burned out thoroughly on MMO's. I wanted to give this game a chance because of two things: Bioware (who's single player RPGs I have always loved) and the Star Wars IP (Especially the Old Republic era stories which blow the ep 1, 2 and 3 out of the water). I expected a trashcan of an MMO though and was not positively excited about anything except those two facts. I followed marketing and saw what they did.. and I was expecting nothing new with voiceovers and a rail shooter. And look what I got, exactly what I expected.

 

Unlike many whiners and disappointed customers, I never expected this game to be the game that saves the MMO genre, or the game that shows people that SWG was actually a good game with bad management, or the game that will topple WoW within it's first quarter. All I expected was lightsabers, voice overs done by good and experience voice actors and a rail shooter. And look what I got?

 

Does the fact I get exactly what I expected make me a Biodrone? For some it does, for me; it makes me realistic I think.

 

The game has a lot more potential, and like other MMO's it will grow as long as fans keep supporting it. I expect this game to get it's own niche for a long time and eventually go F2P or close down after a couple of years.

 

PS. MMO's are always a niche market, no matter how much we want it to be more special. Do not forget that Fifa 12, just a next installment of yet another sports game that comes out every year, sold as much copies in the UK alone as that the MMO market leader's top subscription numbers were. Just to put things in perspective here..

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Well designed and thought out sandbox elements can only make this game a LOT better.

 

However, sorry to harp on about it again, but in 1.2 they are removing RvR, they aren't adding stuff they are taking it away (possibly never to return).

 

Indeed. But in order to get there, we'd have to do it slowly, as I explained. Shoving in Sandbox all willy nilly causes a clash of interests and will just ruin the game.

[Goretzu]

Many people wish more from the game, and many things will probably come over time. But I just dislike people who claim to have been promised or marketed something else than what they got.

 

 

Pretty sure we were promised RvR.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Well designed and thought out sandbox elements can only make this game a LOT better.

 

However, sorry to harp on about it again, but in 1.2 they are removing RvR, they aren't adding stuff they are taking it away (possibly never to return).

 

If they are removing it, it's for good reason.

[Goretzu]

If they are removing it, it's for good reason.

 

What sort of reasoning is that?

 

They've admitted it's rubbish and they can't do any better...... if that's "good reason" then yes I suppose so.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Many people wish more from the game, and many things will probably come over time. But I just dislike people who claim to have been promised or marketed something else than what they got.

 

Before this game, I was burned out thoroughly on MMO's. I wanted to give this game a chance because of two things: Bioware (who's single player RPGs I have always loved) and the Star Wars IP (Especially the Old Republic era stories which blow the ep 1, 2 and 3 out of the water). I expected a trashcan of an MMO though and was not positively excited about anything except those two facts. I followed marketing and saw what they did.. and I was expecting nothing new with voiceovers and a rail shooter. And look what I got, exactly what I expected.

 

Unlike many whiners and disappointed customers, I never expected this game to be the game that saves the MMO genre, or the game that shows people that SWG was actually a good game with bad management, or the game that will topple WoW within it's first quarter. All I expected was lightsabers, voice overs done by good and experience voice actors and a rail shooter. And look what I got?

 

Does the fact I get exactly what I expected make me a Biodrone? For some it does, for me; it makes me realistic I think.

 

The game has a lot more potential, and like other MMO's it will grow as long as fans keep supporting it. I expect this game to get it's own niche for a long time and eventually go F2P or close down after a couple of years.

 

PS. MMO's are always a niche market, no matter how much we want it to be more special. Do not forget that Fifa 12, just a next installment of yet another sports game that comes out every year, sold as much copies in the UK alone as that the MMO market leader's top subscription numbers were. Just to put things in perspective here..

 

I think the whole "You mismarketed" thing is spillover from Mass Effect 3. It's just a buzzword they use to justify getting what they want.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

What sort of reasoning is that?

 

They've admitted it's rubbish and they can't do any better...... if that's "good reason" then yes I suppose so.

 

And who knows, we may actually get a better version of RvR in 1.3 or 1.4 or even first expansion. No point in keeping a creaky feature when you can redesign it and fit it it where the other one used to be without tearing the entire thing down.

[Goretzu]

And who knows, we may actually get a better version of RvR in 1.3 or 1.4 or even first expansion. No point in keeping a creaky feature when you can redesign it and fit it it where the other one used to be without tearing the entire thing down.

 

Even if they intend to bring it back I can't see it happening before late 2012 or 2013, they simply have too much else to fix first (assuming they simple don't decide they'd had their fingers burnt and just quietly forget about it).

 

This happened with Warhammer Online, features started being taken out, and were never put back in (or were 3 years later).

[Space_Gimp]

Pretty sure we were promised RvR.

 

What is RvR? If you are talking about Realm vs Realm in swtor then I would like to see the link that BioWare stated they will be giving us Realm vs Realm.

[Reico]

Pretty sure we were promised RvR.

 

 

Are you confusing RvR with OWPVP?

[Goretzu]

What is RvR? If you are talking about Realm vs Realm in swtor then I would like to see the link that BioWare stated they will be giving us Realm vs Realm.

 

 

What do you think the whole point of Ilum is exactly?

 

Do you think it (an RvR basin) was put in by mistake?

 

Seriously you may believe Bioware can do absolutely no wrong, but pick a better fight than this one!

Edited March 28, 2012 by Goretzu

[Goretzu]

Are you confusing RvR with OWPVP?

 

Nope.

[Space_Gimp]

What do you think the whole point of Ilum is exactly?

 

Do you think it was put in by mistake?

 

Seriously you may believe Bioware can do absolutely no wrong, but pick a better fight than this one!

 

I'm not picking a fight. Your comments are confusing me. We never had RvR at all. Ilum is not RvR.

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

What is RvR? If you are talking about Realm vs Realm in swtor then I would like to see the link that BioWare stated they will be giving us Realm vs Realm.

 

Actually, in SWTOR, it would be Faction vs. Faction.

 

We don't have Realms.... WoW is that way... --->>

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Actually, in SWTOR, it would be Faction vs. Faction.

 

We don't have Realms.... WoW is that way... --->>

 

Oh THAT's what he was talking about? I thought they were removing the cross PvP queue because it had unbalanced match ups.

[Space_Gimp]

Actually, in SWTOR, it would be Faction vs. Faction.

 

We don't have Realms.... WoW is that way... --->>

 

So he was talking about Realm vs Realm. A feature that was never promised in swtor.