All this 1.2 QQin about NERFs...Wat about Ops/Scoundrel?

[Ganksterz]

I would love to argue with you for day's but you have already made up your mind right? Assassins are better in everyway and operatives are just a lost class with no skills at all.

 

Fine by me, we can always convine later and talk rated stats, post pictures, whatever you would like. I can't change your mind obviously your a stubborn one at that.

[DarthLightSide]

no utility? lol right...slaughtering the other teams DPS's or healers at will is plenty of utility.

 

Play a gunslinger pre 1.2 (might be a tad better after 1.2, but still nothing compared to an Operative)

 

but ya, play a GS then you'll truely see lack of utility combined with crappy surviveablity.

 

At least an Operative has combat stealth, cleanse, and heals. not to mention insane DPS and cc's.

 

 

but ya...Operatives need more...right

[Ich_Bin]

@Ganksterz: PMed you in an attempt not to derail this thread any more.

[Ganksterz]

I am however very fortunate to have some very nasty operatives on my server. Some DPS bots dishing out incredible damage and others who like to play objective to obtain the W.

 

I find it very unfortunate that ppl consider operatives a lost class with 0 utility as I have known many games have hinged on a single heroic operative moment. Grabbing the ball at the last seconds, setting up touchdown passes with less than 30 seconds. Countless ninjas/plants. I can't imagine a rated 8 man team without one tbh.

[Howbadisbad]

no utility? lol right...slaughtering the other teams DPS's or healers at will is plenty of utility.

 

Play a gunslinger pre 1.2 (might be a tad better after 1.2, but still nothing compared to an Operative)

 

but ya, play a GS then you'll truely see lack of utility combined with crappy surviveablity.

 

At least an Operative has combat stealth, cleanse, and heals. not to mention insane DPS and cc's.

 

but ya...Operatives need more...right

 

You have never played an Operative and the fact that you are QQing about them as a sniper means you sit there and facetank knives instead of kiting like you should.

 

The bolded just tells me to discard your whole statement.

[DarthLightSide]

It's about time someone who plays as a 50 op made an informed and organized post on this subject. Just briefly I'm a fully geared valor 80+ conceal operative who runs the best PVP guild on my server, so I have a lot of experience playing this class.

 

For those of you who question what an operatives utility is in huttball:

 

1. Offhealing the tank. This is an incredibly underrated ability. Many times I finish a huttball round with 100k+ healing, much of it on the ballcarrier. Those rounds I don't top damage, but my team wins because of the extra healing. People are focusing the real healers, interrupting them, cc'ing them, and they leave me alone to heal. I can crit for up to 4500 heal if I pop my adrenal. Imagine your tank between the two fire pits at 3k health, and suddenly he gets popped to 7500 health while the 2nd fire pit drops and he pops his defensive CDs. GG.

 

2. Flashbang. Have you ever had a geared tank ballcarrying just being swarmed by the other team and he's carried them on his back for a while then suddenly THE ENTIRE OPPOSING TEAM GETS STUNNED? Welcome to flashbang. If your team is any good they will stop attacking and let the opponents just sit there for 8 seconds completely powerless while the tank runs away. Oh yea, and after I stun their entire team, I throw in a couple of offheals and he makes it for the score.

 

3. Stealth control. If you actually do play high level huttball, you would understand that the key to winning is not always about damage/healing numbers. It is about ball control. Two geared and organized teams are going to score 80%+ times they get the ball, so the best way to win is to keep them from ever picking it up to begin with. Good teams both have people waiting in the middle for the ball after scores, fighting it out. Me? I can either wreck people with my burst, or if the opposing players in mid are pretty tough I can sit in stealth, time when the ball's going to come back, open HS on one person, debilitate another, and i've now stunned two people in complete surprise and I often times GRAB THE BALL. Save your defensive CD's for this moment, and evasion can basically make you invincible for 4s, long enough to get to the acid pit and pass to someone who's past the first fire or at the lamp post. Your team has scored before the opponent even knows what hit them. My teammates call me Tom Brady.

 

4. Soloing healers. Find me a class that can solo a healer besides operative dps. I can open, attack, debilitate, attack attack, root, even if they stun/root me, by the time i get to their slowed tendon severed runaway i can vanish and re-open. Yes, this requires using the 2m vanish cooldown, but this is one situation where I find vanishing to re-open worthwhile. I also have an interrupt. You get that #1 opposing healer down and suddenly the opponents are dropping like flies.

 

5. Stealthing in the endzone. If my team has decent ball control in the middle but is having trouble scoring due to huge DPS from the other team, making it 70-80% of the way to the line then dying, I can sit in the endzone UNDETECTED, tell my ballcarrier in voice chat where I am, they can throw it from HALFWAY ACROSS THE PIT to my stealthed position and I unstealth at the last second to catch the ball and score. The opponent is swarmed on the tank ballcarrier and as his health hits 20% and they think they've got us, the ball's suddenly in my hands in the endzone.

 

This is on top of the fact that we have very good 1v1 damage and stealth allows us to choose our targets. I often times top damage in warzones. I have done over 600k damage before. We have our weaknesses... we can't sprint, we can't pull, we can't knockback. These things frustrate me too, but we can't haev everything. Can you imagine if your opponent could stealth, sprint/gap close, heal, stun the whole team, and knock people back? It would be ridiculous. I honestly haven't seen anyone actually use this class/spec to its full utility. People are too simple-minded about what constitutes "utility".

 

 

All true.

[DarthLightSide]

You have never played an Operative and the fact that you are QQing about them as a sniper means you sit there and facetank knives instead of kiting like you should.

 

The bolded just tells me to discard your whole statement.

 

I have an operative and a scoundrel and they both own...but ok

 

and sorry...you're wrong again by saying I "sit there" as my GS is dirty fighter spec.

 

My main is a Shadow....just fyi so you can target your comments a little better instead of making assumptions.

[Howbadisbad]

All true.

 

Every single one of these things can be done by Assassin except for off heals. But Assassins can carry the ball and guard healers.

 

Your move?

[Celebrus]

I am however very fortunate to have some very nasty operatives on my server. Some DPS bots dishing out incredible damage and others who like to play objective to obtain the W.

 

I find it very unfortunate that ppl consider operatives a lost class with 0 utility as I have known many games have hinged on a single heroic operative moment. Grabbing the ball at the last seconds, setting up touchdown passes with less than 30 seconds. Countless ninjas/plants. I can't imagine a rated 8 man team without one tbh.

 

Ops/scoundrels are fine.

 

There are a few bad, vocal, angry operatives/scoundrels that don't find themselves capable of four shotting *ANY* class that stumbles across their LoS, and thus believe they are a broken, unplayable class.

 

Meanwhile there are hundreds of ops/scoundrels that are finding success in warzones by playing to the strengths of their class rather than trying to gank sin tanks and juggs.\

 

As a sniper, if I spent most of my time attacking sin tanks and expecting success I'd probably be angry and screaming for buffs too, but I don't, and I'm not, because I know I'm more suited to killing the squishy healer thats heal-botting the ball carrier than having 60% of my physical damage mitigated by tankyness.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Celebrus

[Totgug]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryotknife

A. warriors were better than rogues for a long time, and it wasnt because they had more utility. if you think burst has no place in pvp, then apparently you missed an entire expansion in wow.

 

I never said BURST wasn't a big part of PVP

 

B. when rogues had mobility and burst with the ability to stunlock someone, they were mutilate in wrath of the lich king and were one of the overpowered classes in pvp to ever exist.

 

If you think Muti rogues were op in wraith then you really shouldn't be talking...EVER...WOW rogue (Fiftysix) look me up, One of us played a toon past 2200 and that person was me

 

C. when rogues got shadowstep, their ability to stunlock someone and take out most if not all of their life was removed. in fact rogues with shadowstep probably had the least amount of damage in burning crusade.

 

Sub Rogues were DoT Rogues with a little burst thrown in. I was there!

 

D. ops do have utility, at least in alderaan and voidstar (huttball, no. huttball is all about mobility and gaurd/taunt). how you can not consider stealth utility is absolutely mind boggling when that single ability alone wins alderaan and voidstar. ops are one of the best classes at locking down someone.

 

You people keep saying that Ops/Scoundrels have utility...WHERE? Dirty Kick?

 

Maybe I'm wrong (LOL, I'm Never wrong) and maybe it's you guys/dolls that know what your talking about. If that's the case I am sorry for wasting everyones time.

 

 

I didnt want to read 14 pages of BS, so i am sure this has already been said.

 

THIS IS NOT WOW. STOP RELATING TO WOW. IF YOU WANT WOW LEAVE.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Totgug
quote was missing

[cnguyen]

Have you played a DPS Assassin?

They do better burst than Operatives, the only difference is that Assassins have to build up their burst while the Operative's burst is front-loaded. But this is actually an advantage for the Assassin (imo) because you get to choose when to apply your burst. Finishing someone off is much more important than having an opener that does lots of damage.

Also the Assassin doesn't have to come from stealth in order to apply its burst (HUGE advantage) and hardly ever runs out of energy.

 

You really make me want to roll a shadow/sin and see how true this is. I do not doubt you but I have not yet witness this. On our server, there are no shadow/sin that I have ran across that can wtfpwn me so hard, like I can do them, to makes me stare at my screen and think what just happen.

 

I totally agree without on the utility issue, however.

[AHChrist]

Agent healers is one of the best healing classes in pvp. They can do 90% of their healing while moving and cannot be intteruppted. They get snare, flash bang, stun, and sleep dart. Their big heal crits for 5-6K (can get 7K on myself with shield bonus). They get a get out of jail free card. Just dispel dots and pop shield, 90% of the time you get away. When orbit strike is up they can pop surge relic and power stim to get 3K-4K crits per tick. Use that and stun a person in it while you shiv and back stab. I get tracer BHs or snipers all the time with it while they are spam on someone else. Good times. Edited March 26, 2012 by AHChrist

[Celebrus]

You really make me want to roll a shadow/sin and see how true this is. I do not doubt you but I have not yet witness this. On our server, there are no shadow/sin that I have ran across that can wtfpwn me so hard, like I can do them, to makes me stare at my screen and think what just happen.

 

Thats because it is completely untrue, DPS sins have nowhere near the kind of burst that ops do, and for him to say that it's better for it to *NOT* be frontloaded, when he's playing a class that has no gap closer other than stealth, is absolutely ridiculous, and proves that he's really speaking out of his rear at this point.

 

If ops/scoundrels didn't have the extremely frontloaded damage that they have they *REALLY* would be bad in PvP, so his claim shows a clear lack of knowledge on the matter.

[WildcardHatesYou]

Op/Scoundrel = ZERO Utility...Why would anyone in thier right mind use the class in a rated 8 man?

 

and when I say ZERO I mean ZERO!

 

Shadow = KNOCKBACK, SPRINT, PULL, 30M STUNLOCK, 15M INT, 1.5 MIN TRINKET,

Yet when you come up against one it's an autowin for you. You want a crapload of utility to go with it?

[Howbadisbad]

Ops/scoundrels are fine.

 

There are a few bad, vocal, angry operatives/scoundrels that don't find themselves capable of four shotting *ANY* class that stumbles across their LoS, and thus believe they are a broken, unplayable class.

 

Meanwhile there are hundreds of ops/scoundrels that are finding success in warzones by playing to the strengths of their class rather than trying to gank sin tanks and juggs.\

 

As a sniper, if I spent most of my time attacking sin tanks and expecting success I'd probably be angry and screaming for buffs too, but I don't, and I'm not, because I know I'm more suited to killing the squishy healer thats heal-botting the ball carrier than having 60% of my physical damage mitigated by tankyness.

 

Anything that is getting fourshot is very undergeared.

 

Statement 2 is just fluff, intended to make your argument seem as though it is fact or a strong basis, even though you acctually have no clue what hundreds of OPs feel about their class.

 

Healers can easily survive an Operative if they are kiting like they should be. That is discounting allies peeling for the healer, like would be done in rated WZs.

[Izola]

ok, OP here.

 

Ive heard a lot of good posts, some troll posts, but all in all a good discussion.

 

But to add a little clarity i would like everyone to know that i have played very high rated PvP in other games. I have led, been a focus caller, healed, been stealth and i fully understand high end strats and how to use the map and/or opponets mistakes toward a win for us. Ive seen a lot of stuff in my day.

 

However: i still need to be convinced that my scrapper smuggler is going to be useful in huttball.

 

SO LETS TALK ABOUT HUTTBALL.

 

I know the offensive goalie strat, i know the hide in mid CC enemy grab ball and pass up strat, i know kill healers or make em know your there strat.

 

My point is i could find another class to do all of these things better. WAT DO?

 

Please convince me, i really want my scrapper to be in huttball as it is my Favorite MAP IN ANY MMO IVE EVER PLAYED.

[Howbadisbad]

Thats because it is completely untrue, DPS sins have nowhere near the kind of burst that ops do, and for him to say that it's better for it to *NOT* be frontloaded, when he's playing a class that has no gap closer other than stealth, is absolutely ridiculous, and proves that he's really speaking out of his rear at this point.

 

If ops/scoundrels didn't have the extremely frontloaded damage that they have they *REALLY* would be bad in PvP, so his claim shows a clear lack of knowledge on the matter.

 

 

So since when do Operatives hit for 14k in one global?

Seems like you are the one speaking out of your arse to me.

[Celebrus]

Anything that is getting fourshot is very undergeared.

 

Statement 2 is just fluff, intended to make your argument seem as though it is fact or a strong basis, even though you acctually have no clue what hundreds of OPs feel about their class.

 

Healers can easily survive an Operative if they are kiting like they should be. That is discounting allies peeling for the healer, like would be done in rated WZs.

 

Thats a healing problem, not an operative problem, which is probably why healers in general are being hit in 1.2

 

A decent healer, especially a sorc/sage, can survive ANY solo DPS, especially when allies peel, so your statement is pointless.

 

I stand by my claims.

[DarthLightSide]

Every single one of these things can be done by Assassin except for off heals. But Assassins can carry the ball and guard healers.

 

Your move?

 

classes that get marked by the enemy in a WZ

 

1.healer: obvisously

2.DPS classes when they are truely making a difference. The ratio of Operatives VS other classes including assassins is like 10:1 they'll be targeted.

3. Tanks, meh hardly ever unless ball carriers or last man standing.

 

 

Nothing breaks the morale and distracts from the current objective more than a really good Operative going on a killing spree.

 

In fact...I think the only targets I've EVER seen marked in WZ's were healers and Operatives.

 

so ya...slaughtering the other team 1 by 1 and breaking their spirits seems like pretty good utility to me.

[Izola]

ok, op here.

 

Ive heard a lot of good posts, some troll posts, but all in all a good discussion.

 

But to add a little clarity i would like everyone to know that i have played very high rated pvp in other games. I have led, been a focus caller, healed, been stealth and i fully understand high end strats and how to use the map and/or opponets mistakes toward a win for us. Ive seen a lot of stuff in my day.

 

However: I still need to be convinced that my scrapper smuggler is going to be useful in huttball.

 

So lets talk about huttball.

 

I know the offensive goalie strat, i know the hide in mid cc enemy grab ball and pass up strat, i know kill healers or make em know your there strat.

 

My point is i could find another class to do all of these things better. Wat do?

 

Please convince me, i really want my scrapper to be in huttball as it is my favorite map in any mmo ive ever played.

 

lets steer this thread toward operatives/scoundrels in HIGH rated HUTTBALL please!!

Edited March 26, 2012 by Izola

[Howbadisbad]

Thats a healing problem, not an operative problem, which is probably why healers in general are being hit in 1.2

 

A decent healer, especially a sorc/sage, can survive ANY solo DPS, especially when allies peel, so your statement is pointless.

 

I stand by my claims.

 

You just admitted that Operatives are not the problem when it comes to four shotting, and don't solo healers.

 

You don't have any more claims to stand by.

 

This thread is aimed at Operative/Scoundrel DPS not healing.

[Ganksterz]

Here's the bottom line. Do you enjoy your operative? If you said yes then continue to play it don't worry about what everyone else thinks its all about what makes you happy.

 

Rated WZs well we will see when the time comes.

 

You know your doing things right when ppl in general cuss you for killing them 12 times or more a game. Your an operative pissing ppl off comes with the class it's kinda like Paris Hilton bad publicity is better than no publicity :-P. play what you like and forget about everything else.

[Izola]

Here's the bottom line. Do you enjoy your operative? If you said yes then continue to play it don't worry about what everyone else thinks its all about what makes you happy.

 

Rated WZs well we will see when the time comes.

 

You know your doing things right when ppl in general cuss you for killing them 12 times or more a game. Your an operative pissing ppl off comes with the class it's kinda like Paris Hilton bad publicity is better than no publicity :-P. play what you like and forget about everything else.

 

Im with ya Ganksterz, ive always favored the whole bring the player not the class thing. But i still feel a shadowstep mechanic or some other Gap closer is so needed for this class. Put it on a nice long CD, idc, just something is needed imho.

 

Note: most of my feelings are directed toward High end Rated Huttball, so its not really a huge discussion, just something i would like to be prepared for.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Izola

[Ich_Bin]

You really make me want to roll a shadow/sin and see how true this is. I do not doubt you but I have not yet witness this. On our server, there are no shadow/sin that I have ran across that can wtfpwn me so hard, like I can do them, to makes me stare at my screen and think what just happen.

 

I totally agree without on the utility issue, however.

 

Actually at first I didn't think the burst would be better either, because everyone was only talking about "Operative's insane burst". I think this is a misconception that is mostly based on the fact that

1) Operatives can apply their burst with less effort (less skill)

2) Most Assassins are specced into tanking instead of dps

 

Check out this video:

It's mostly footage from a tank specced Shadow but in the beginning there also is some from a DPS build, too. Just watch the first 40 seconds or so.

>12k damage within a second and still have 75% energy afterwards. Can any Operative do something like that? ^^

 

 

Edit: I should probably stop posting stuff like this unless I want the class that I rerolled and have so much fun with see getting nerfed, too.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Thefriar]

Have a conceal operative, assasin, and juggernaut. All level 50 and played to BM. Now that I have qualified myself as having an opinion no more vaulable than yours I will just share my thoughts.

 

Operatives are one of the weakest classes at huttball because of the lack of a gap closer and getting knocked around all over the place. Ops are not worthless - killing stuff fast is always valuable but I doubt you will see more than one of them on any rated WZ. I could be wrong here but we will see.

 

However Operatives are very powerful in CW and VS. They seem to really shine in CW.

 

I personally don't find them unbalanced while on my jugger. The double stealth that takes 75% of my health or kills me doesn't bother me that much - just respawn and get on with your life.

 

Killing one person quickly adds far less to a win than one well placed throw or clever cap of an objective.