So...is sniper really that bad?

[Jaxtaro]

It just sounds to me that you're making excuses for yourself.

 

Snipers do great damage. Awesome, they're a dps class. They have nice defensive cooldowns. They have two abilities that stop people cold and ignores resolve.

 

If you don't like that toolkit, then roll another class.

 

I'm sure it does sound that way, you're a relative newbie to the class and completely ignorant of many facets of this class, as you've played a low level, low end marksman, you don't have any experience with the problems or strengths of the other two trees.

 

You've already displayed several complete newbie errors based on your assumptions and not even reading tooltips properly, or understanding what certain tools do.

 

I don't blame you for your exuberant ignorance, just being new to a class that others aren't very familiar with and probably playing against not very bright players.

 

Snipers DONT do great damage, basically tied with operatives as lowest damage DPS class in SWTOR, did you know that?

 

Of course you didn't, because you don't look at data, you look at warzone total damage which has nothing to do with how much damage a class does.

 

Snipers DONT have good defensive cooldowns, they have a fairly cruddy orb that's universally useful and one anti-sniper only tool. They have the big shield, but because of cover requirement, it's practically only useful for 1 of the 3 primary builds.

 

Two of the builds are dot builds, which automatically break our strongest form of CC, roots also break on damage, cover pulse is not useful to two of the 3 builds, which means that 2 of 3 of our builds have really one CC that's able to be used on our oponents without immediately breaking, and one root.

 

I make no "excuses" for anything. I just happen to know, unlike you, how class balance works in a gaming environment, as do I know how classes are built properly with appropriate strengths and weaknesses. BW screwed the pooch on snipers and operatives in an extreme way.

 

The "roll another class" excuse doesn't cut it, because it enables poor design, simply because some ignorant, inexperienced low level sniper with terribad competition makes a lot of assumptions without data based on his warzone total damage done?

[Jaxtaro]

I use stats because they are a good indicator of offensive ability.

 

I play on a low pop server. Everyone knows me, and then gun for me when they see me on the other team. I don't put up 300k because I was ignored. I put up 300k because I did exceptionally well and got lucky a few times.

 

People (who I guess have never played another class at 50) are all doom and gloom about snipers at 50. I don't buy it. I've seen some good snipers/gunslingers in action. They do well. I do well right now, and I don't think that's going to change when gear gets in equilibrium again at 50.

 

But since apparently no stats can prove that , I won't try to convince people of it. If you're bad at sniper, you're bad at sniper. Roll something else.

 

You don't use stats, you use warzone damage, which is, as I said earlier is solely an indicator of how much DPS uptime you have. That's neither stats nor valid data. It's an indicator of being left alone.

[Enexemander]

First of all, I'm level 47 and 31 deep in Lethality. So much for being a newbie marksman.

 

Second, cover pulse is amazing no matter what your build. I happen to have it on a 20 second cooldown. Hint- it still stops them for 2 seconds whether they're hit or not.

 

I really just think you need to watch some good snipers in action and pick up some pointers. You're trying to talk with an air of authority, but it really just sounds to me like you're kind of bad at the class.

 

Snipers have trouble with sustained dps, not burst. This is pvp we're talking about.

[ButterStrawKid]

lets be honest any other dps class does equal if not more dps than us BUT they can also heal, a bubble that can actually absorb dmg, a ranged debilitate, mobile knockback(mercs get 2 knockbacks), powertechs and assasins with their pulls and amazing defensive CDs which outshines snipers and oh god maraduers they're like an unstoppable train of **** with their stealth(why BW even gave marauders stealth is beyond me) and OP 99% dmg reduction ability along with their 20 sec longs 20% reduction ability along with antoher abiltiy that deflects all sniper attacks.

 

<-------------war hero sniper full BM

[Jaxtaro]

First of all, I'm level 47 and 31 deep in Lethality. So much for being a newbie marksman.

 

Second, cover pulse is amazing no matter what your build. I happen to have it on a 20 second cooldown. Hint- it still stops them for 2 seconds whether they're hit or not.

 

I really just think you need to watch some good snipers in action and pick up some pointers. You're trying to talk with an air of authority, but it really just sounds to me like you're kind of bad at the class.

 

Snipers have trouble with sustained dps, not burst. This is pvp we're talking about.

 

 

Thanks for your hints, they're cute and brighten my day. I'm also not concerned with your present build you made this afternoon, you revealed yourself over the last few posts.

 

No skill which requires one to stop movement, and change stances to go off is "amazing". This is a classic example of looking at a skill in a vacuum. Yes, it's got a 2 second root... big deal, it takes longer to get it off than the root helps with. Others with an AE knockback have ZERO prerequisites, much less client side lag and animation delays to deal with to get their AE knockback to go off, and it doesn't even work consistently AND it's subject to resolve. When contrasted with real AE knockback skills, especially to those who don't spend their time in cover, CP is a joke.

 

You can pretty much veer away from the whole "bad at the class" thing, I've got a solid reputation as a 50/73 sniper on my server, among fellow snipers and non-snipers alike. I know this class far more intimately than you, having played it as main since beta and can guarantee that I'm encountering opponents that are FAR better skilled and geared than show up on your low-pop backwoods server.

 

You need to pay closer attention to the data, it's not "burst vs. sustained", nothing is ever that simple. There's different methods of even delivering what some call "burst". MM's can "burst", Lethality wouldn't be best labelled as "burst" damage, rather it's better labelled as "peaky", but with it's buildup requirements, cannot be considered "burst" in any classic sense of the word. Similar with Eng damage, which is the most consistent across the board. EIther way, regardless of length of parse time (30 second through 9 minutes I've seen), snipers fall behind everyone. The only time they don't fall behind is in the 10 second or less range, and that's STRICTLY marksman DPS.

 

Again, your little "I do a lot of damage in warzones, therefore my class is high damage" thesis is amusing in it's ignorance, kind of like in a "kitten missing his jump" kind of way, but it's a meaningless measure of class performance, as all it measures is DPS uptime, or how much you're ignored. You are the lowest perceived threat in your WZ's, so you're able to have the most DPS uptime, thus the highest total damage.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Jaxtaro

[Enexemander]

See, this is where you show your shallow understanding of other classes.

 

Assassins and sorcs DO have an animation delay on their knockback. Also, going into cover is off the GCD. You can cover and pulse nearly instantly. The only class that can knockback faster is a mercenary.

 

If you want to continue thinking your class is bad, by all means do so. I'm not going to argue with you any longer that you're incorrect.

 

Here's what I see- People are great with snipers. They do everything you would expect of a dps class and more. I do well with my sniper, and have no complaints. My assumption then, if you're so down on the class being awful, is that you aren't using it well.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/empireseliteguild/videos This is an example of a good sniper, in case you aren't dead set against learning.

 

Good luck. And my main advice would be to reroll to a class you think is better. You'll see that the grass isn't as green as you think it is.

[Leman]

pre-level 50 warzones are way different from lvl 50 warzones. you stated you're 47...you should be tearing it up in the 10-49's. its a whole new ball game at 50.

[Lysico]

First of all, I'm level 47 and 31 deep in Lethality. So much for being a newbie marksman.

 

.

 

Stop right there..

 

Sub 50. You have zero clue what real pvp is like.

[finansjapp]

I use stats because they are a good indicator of offensive ability.

 

I play on a low pop server. Everyone knows me, and then gun for me when they see me on the other team. I don't put up 300k because I was ignored. I put up 300k because I did exceptionally well and got lucky a few times.

 

People (who I guess have never played another class at 50) are all doom and gloom about snipers at 50. I don't buy it. I've seen some good snipers/gunslingers in action. They do well. I do well right now, and I don't think that's going to change when gear gets in equilibrium again at 50.

 

But since apparently no stats can prove that , I won't try to convince people of it. If you're bad at sniper, you're bad at sniper. Roll something else.

 

I can make and show videos of my sniper tearing opponents apart. They dont even know what hit them before they go to the rez pad. I can do 500k+ damage in warzones, and take out most classes that are lower gear in 1v1 easily. That is why we are not impressed with your videos of so called great snipers. We can all do it, but that has never been the point.

 

Its when you face equal opposition that snipers show their weakness. You say you are on a low populated server. Im sure that is good for you. Hopefully for you it is also a very imperial heavy server. On my server we face very good opposition at 50 pvp.

 

This is no doom discussion. Some of us that play other characters see that snipers have shortcomings. At least the marksman tree. We say it also.

Edited April 8, 2012 by finansjapp

[MadMossy]

I have 5 level 50 characters as shown below, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt of my 5 characters the only other class that is equally as squishy as my sniper is the operative, but the operative has a get out of jail card called stealth which the sniper lacks.

 

Of the 5 the Operative is capable of incredible burst damage but once the initial damage is over it lacks sustainability.

 

The Powertech (advanced prototype), Assassin (Darkness) and Sorcerer (Corruption) are all able to dish out very high sustained damage and/or healing and in many cases take a battering as well. The Assassin being the least likely to get face rolled by any class.

 

Despite all of this though I enjoy the sniper more than the rest but they certainly have issues, more so than any other class I have played.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ewpaR.jpg

Edited April 8, 2012 by MadMossy

[Afterday]

Well Sniper is not so easy class like comando-I somethimes think you can be afk in whole WZ and be good comando.

Biggest problem is mobility you cant always be in cover and mostly in wz cover=death honestly

Sniper=first target our HP is going very very fast,belive me you are never alone and easy shooting in cover from distance what you whant

ofc "great" snipers dont mentioned that like also-sniper must be skilled player not like few other classes where you can simple just play and be top kills get lot medlas

with asa I can kill 2 ppl 1 vs 2 with sniper i must say have big problems with 1 vs1 with some classes

Problem is too many maruders,other tanks runing around in typical wz if you play 5 wz so in this 5 games you can see just one sniper or even zero

You can simple see in wz what best classes in pvp are,this what are most play on wz

[Vyndeta]

Despite all the negative comments, Sniper/Gunslinger is my favorite class. My first class was a Gunslinger (my main) and my second class i rerolled is a Sniper.

 

I don't see how a lot of you people can say we are an underpowered class. I have nvr been outdamaged/outdpsed in Warzones for the past 3 months. Even when i just hit 50 on my sniper, I have no problems getting kills/highest damage and doing what a sniper is suppose to do. Even in warzones like huttball, a sniper has its strong suits.

 

Excel What the class is great in. Stop looking at the negatives and play with the classes strengths. Cya In Rateds

Edited April 8, 2012 by Vyndeta

[Jaxtaro]

See, this is where you show your shallow understanding of other classes.

 

Assassins and sorcs DO have an animation delay on their knockback. Also, going into cover is off the GCD. You can cover and pulse nearly instantly. The only class that can knockback faster is a mercenary.

 

If you want to continue thinking your class is bad, by all means do so. I'm not going to argue with you any longer that you're incorrect.

 

Here's what I see- People are great with snipers. They do everything you would expect of a dps class and more. I do well with my sniper, and have no complaints. My assumption then, if you're so down on the class being awful, is that you aren't using it well.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/empireseliteguild/videos This is an example of a good sniper, in case you aren't dead set against learning.

 

Good luck. And my main advice would be to reroll to a class you think is better. You'll see that the grass isn't as green as you think it is.

 

Jesus, are you still trying?

 

Having an animation, yet being able to use something while moving isn't the same as having an animation delay and client side delay, and having a dependence on a first move before using the 2nd. Being off the GCD isn't the same as "The server will not allow you to CP unless it knows you're in cover". I'm sorry, I have a consular, I know the difference in AE Knockbacks just fine.

 

You haven't effectively argued a single point, your only arguments have been:

 

1. I think you're bad

2. I get high WZ damage

 

Both have been thoroughly debunked. I play other classes, which is why I know that the sniper needs work. It's not broken to the point of unplayable, it is however, in need of a couple of things to make it work better, and for each tree to have a better synergy of talents. It's more of an example of "what not to do" when creating classes.

 

 

MM

1. MM should have a 40m range.

2. MM needs an escape tool/gap opener usable from cover, such as a rollback.

 

Lethality

 

1. Lethality should have a "non cover requirement" talent for CP

2. We'll see how the 1.2 changes are to dispel protection, but apparently BW agreed with me that they needed dispel protection, since... well, that's what we're getting.

3. There needs to be a talent which prevents your own dots from breaking your own CC

4. There definitely needs to be a defensive skill worth using, and one that can be fired off while stunned to prevent the "100-0 without control of your character" nonsense that is playing a lethality/eng sniper vs, an operative or scoundrel or the onslaught of an offensive warrior. No matchup should ever be so lopsided in a game that's past beta.

 

 

Certain talents are laid out ridiculously as well. The tree who cannot get interrupted gets the talent to shave a second off of Oribital Strike, while the most mobile trees get the snare talents.

 

 

Engineering:

 

I would probably play engineering if it were more like as advertised, which is relying on mechanical things. I would love to have swarms of droids, trap droids, kolto droids, armor sabotaging droids, etc etc. Instead there's a couple of little probes and that's it, it also hints at being very strong AE, but turns out to be "above average"

 

Finally, if you need to channel Orbital Strike, it needs to go off in it's entirety if you die before it's been completed.

[Enexemander]

Stop right there..

 

Sub 50. You have zero clue what real pvp is like.

 

I have 2 battlemasters, 1 champion at 50 (who is almost a battlemaster).

 

An assassin, a mercenary (healer), and a sentinel.

 

I'm *familiar* with PvP at 50.

[Lysico]

I have 2 battlemasters, 1 champion at 50 (who is almost a battlemaster).

 

An assassin, a mercenary (healer), and a sentinel.

 

I'm *familiar* with PvP at 50.

 

Yet you don't have a 50 sniper.. So you really don't know, do you.

[Enexemander]

Yet you don't have a 50 sniper.. So you really don't know, do you.

 

49 Right now.

 

What are you going to come back with when I'm 50 and still doing well?

 

Jesus you guys must own stock in Haterade.

[Krytycal]

49 Right now.

 

What are you going to come back with when I'm 50 and still doing well?

 

Jesus you guys must own stock in Haterade.

 

He's right though. The difference between a lvl 49 and a fresh lvl 50 sniper is night and day. I'm not saying it becomes terrible all of sudden, but you won't feel the way you felt at 49 til you at least get some champion equipment.

[Enexemander]

He's right though. The difference between a lvl 49 and a fresh lvl 50 sniper is night and day. I'm not saying it becomes terrible all of sudden, but you won't feel the way you felt at 49 til you at least get some champion equipment.

 

Yep, I've been to this rodeo 3 times before, and I know that. That's why I'll be comparing my experience now to when I'm in full centurion. I'll be able to buy BM on this character before I get champ though when 1.2 hits.

 

See, the thing is, that's not a sniper issue at all. That's an undergeared issue that all classes deal with when fresh 50. Geared snipers that know how to play well, actually do well. Take a look at those vids I posted. The guy has some quality play. I believe he has a tutorial kicking around somewhere.

[MadMossy]

Full centrurion wont help you much, yes your damage will improve but you will still get facerolled by any melee class/ranged class that targets you, unless you get very lucky with critical hits.

 

And unlike pre-50 where your occasional snipe/ambush gets deflected at 50 when your up against champion/battlemaster geared people its a matter of life and death.

 

On top of that nothing is more frustrating than working your backside off to do well in PVP when other classes (lets use merc for instance) can mash one button and still output more damage per attack than you can on a good day.

 

My highest hitting attack so far is with adrenal/relic on an ambush against a sage who had been armour debuffed and it was 4.6k vs regularly getting hit for 3.5k+ by almost every other class.

 

Lets not forget the "nurfed" operatives that are still capable of bringing down 16k hp in a matter of seconds. Don't bother trying to defend them I know, I have one an Operative, Assassin, Powertech, Sorcerer and Sniper all level 50 and all with extensive PVP experience.

 

EDIT: 19:42PM

 

I've literally just finished a voidstar game where I had a 1vs1 with a Sentinal, other than EP and IP all my other attacks (sniper, ambush, followthrough and series of shots) were deflected apart from 2 ticks from SoS, one was absorbed and the other crit for 1157. Bare in mind my Sniper is valor rank 56 with a mix of champion/centurion gear and has 508 expertise.

 

No other class in the game can have there damage mitigated by such a huge amount.

Edited April 8, 2012 by MadMossy

[Katrasle]

EDIT: 19:42PM

 

I've literally just finished a voidstar game where I had a 1vs1 with a Sentinal, other than EP and IP all my other attacks (sniper, ambush, followthrough and series of shots) were deflected apart from 2 ticks from SoS, one was absorbed and the other crit for 1157. Bare in mind my Sniper is valor rank 56 with a mix of champion/centurion gear and has 508 expertise.

 

No other class in the game can have there damage mitigated by such a huge amount.

 

You were attacking him when he popped his defensive cooldown. Snipers are in a decent spot in PvP. We have classes that can counter us and we can completely destroy others, this is usually how it works.

 

I will be the first to say that some things completely frustrate me in PvP (mara/sent and shadow/assassin tanks) however, that is just how it is. I know what I am capable of doing to someone in a very short period of time and it is scary.

 

I am still learning as a sniper in PvP, trying out new things, getting better at keeping myself and those around me alive, while dropping others in short hard-hitting bursts.

 

http://i.imgur.com/NhP0D.jpg This is my best so far and I still need to improve, snipers are not terrible.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Katrasle

[Livelyhound]

You were attacking him when he popped his defensive cooldown. Snipers are in a decent spot in PvP. We have classes that can counter us and we can completely destroy others, this is usually how it works.

 

That's all well and good but youre supposed to be an area denial class, how do you area deny people like that in hutball?

 

Sure we can counter some classes, any class can counter us. That's not how its supposed to work.

 

Basically, I disagree, we are not in a good spot for pvp due to the nature of wz's. We bring nothign but dps and that doesn't win matches especially when half the classes or more can just pop any old cool down and negate said dps.

 

I have had similar streaks like the poster above, where i got 8 or so doge, parry, miss, shield, blah blah blah and nothing hits. This is on people who's cooldowns you know are down. It happens sometimes jsut due to bad rng rolls. But to have everything negated for a 15 second period of time in pvp is just stupid.

[Enexemander]

That's all well and good but youre supposed to be an area denial class, how do you area deny people like that in hutball?

 

Sure we can counter some classes, any class can counter us. That's not how its supposed to work.

 

Basically, I disagree, we are not in a good spot for pvp due to the nature of wz's. We bring nothign but dps and that doesn't win matches especially when half the classes or more can just pop any old cool down and negate said dps.

 

I have had similar streaks like the poster above, where i got 8 or so doge, parry, miss, shield, blah blah blah and nothing hits. This is on people who's cooldowns you know are down. It happens sometimes jsut due to bad rng rolls. But to have everything negated for a 15 second period of time in pvp is just stupid.

 

If that's true, then you need to up your accuracy and crit rating. Accuracy to be sure you hit, and crit rating to by-pass any shield (by honestly, it's very rare to run into someone actually using a shield generator these days).

[Livelyhound]

If that's true, then you need to up your accuracy and crit rating. Accuracy to be sure you hit, and crit rating to by-pass any shield (by honestly, it's very rare to run into someone actually using a shield generator these days).

 

Acc 112%

Crit 64%

 

Thats full bm no mods swapped yet, minus the blade and gun which are champion.

[MadMossy]

Stacking accuracy means your neglecting other offensive stats, and accuracy only improves your chance of hitting targets which high defense (tanks for instance). It will have zero impact against classes who defensive cooldowns. I cannot think of any other class in the game who can have what is essentially there entire rotation negated several times.

 

Yes if lady luck is on your side you may well get all shots to hit but verses a tank because of how the mitigation process works those shots are likely to do nothing more than tickle them.

Edited April 8, 2012 by MadMossy

[Ashu-ri]

Hahahaha funny joke.

http://i.imgur.com/7EyEm.jpg

 

Wow, I'll have to ask you for tips on pvp.....my sniper is just a baby right now, though. Level 10.