The Status Quo Has Been Restored

[nachoman_randy]

Uhm.

 

While this isn't the place for it... It was revealed in the EU that Luke, after witnessing any Force Power or Lightsaber form once, for a few seconds, has a strange "savant" ability to reproduce it perfectly.

 

Vader made a mistake while fighting Luke on Bespin. After the first few seconds Luke had Mastered completely Vader's style.

 

Interestingly enough Vader technically should have died to Luke on Cloud City.

 

Wait what?!

 

Yeah, no joke. Watch the movie "Star Wars: Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back" very carefully. During the duel, while on the catwalks, Luke swings a slanting shot going from upper left, to lower right, this strikes Vader on the edge of his shoulder. You see sparks fly, the shot is deflected, and Vader grabs his shoulder in obvious pain.

 

According to the canon, Vader's shoulder pads were made of a highly dense special armor that while not lightsaber immune is resistant and was enough to cause a deflection. Without that armor, or if Luke's shot had been a smidgeon more to the right (Luke's right) at the point of impact it would have cleaved Darth Vader in half across his torso.

 

Vader had many oportunities to Kill Luke before that, Luke would have been killed if Vader just went freakin' Brian Bointano on him. Vader was fighting to capture, not to kill (altrough he acctually forgets that a couple of times in the middle of the battle of cloud city).

 

PD: Also thanks of reminding me about the savant BS, Walsh! Gee, thanks! I forgot about how much I hate EU Luke and then you gently remind me why.

Edited March 28, 2012 by nachoman_randy

[Mirdthestrill]

Bang goes your argument back.

 

It doesn't matter if his attack was savage, he overwhelmed her with rage... Which she had experienced before, many times in fact, especially since she had fought Sith before. She also lost to someone who was using no form or grace?

 

Are you trying to tell me that the Sword of the Jedi couldn't land a blow against a Savage? The technique makes no sense at all.

 

Did you read the section? He wasn't overwhelming her with rage. In the preceding paragraphs, it mentions that he was almost totally emotionless. He was in a mental state of total war, a situation in which his mind was locked into one specific objective: Defeat the enemy at all costs. Something she had never seen before. A specifically Mandalorian technique. And, simply my opinion, but I think it fits with the Mandalorian identity.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Did you read the section? He wasn't overwhelming her with rage. In the preceding paragraphs, it mentions that he was almost totally emotionless. He was in a mental state of total war, a situation in which his mind was locked into one specific objective: Defeat the enemy at all costs. Something she had never seen before. A specifically Mandalorian technique. And, simply my opinion, but I think it fits with the Mandalorian identity.

 

You also didn't read the whole section and in fact omitted sections to strengthen the argument. That is why a poster posted the section that had been omitted. There was nothing for me to comment on because someone had already torn that attempt at an argument asunder.

[GarfieldJL]

Okay the points people were making I've seen a few inaccuracies.

 

Person here claimed that Luke Skywalker killed a clone of himself. However, if you look at the book Last Command, which is book 3 of the Thrawn Trilogy, Luke Skywalker didn't kill the clone of himself unless there is some story I haven't seen, Mara Jade killed the clone.

 

 

That's an example.

 

 

Also what people fail to understand is that a rookiee with no idea what they are doing is just as dangerous as a skilled master, because they don't know what they are doing. Force users have advantages over nonforce sensitives, but they are not deities.

[TheBentOne]

Incorrect.

 

In the canonical fight he was on the ground choking to death and he kicked the box over the ridge, while Vader was distracted he ran. You are referring to the "What if" fight where he had a blade (not a lightsaber) that could deflect a lightsaber. That was the one that was part of the non-canon series.

 

*sigh* I see once again that people have a hard time comprehending the duel between Fett and Vader in Enemy of the Empire forcing me to repost this.

 

Just thought I’d chime in to correct a misconception about the ending of Boba Fetts duel with Darth Vader.

 

Boba was NOT aiming his blaster at Vader, he had lost that while Vader was force choking him, he was aiming his wrist mounted concussion rocket launcher, which let’s be honest has a much, much better chance of knocking Vader forward six inches into a flaming pool of lava then a blaster.

 

Anyway, regardless of whether you think Vader was toying with him or not, prior to being force choked Boba still managed to get a headshot in on one of the most powerful force users of all time (and resist a mind trick). If Vader was a Jedi (as in not armored to the point of being nigh indestructible) he would have been dead.

 

Vader was stronger but Boba was smarter. That’s just how it happened. Underestimating your opponent can be fatal. (a lesson that Vader and his imperial cronies appear to never actually have learned considering their consistent underestimating of the rebels and how they allowed a hostile primitive species to live within walking distance of an important military installation)

 

Oh and i just dug this gem as well so i might as well counter that too.

 

It was finally restored in the last book in FotJ when Boba Fett had to have his life saved by a Jedi because he was captured and helpless and about to be devoured.

 

Even Denning (who quite possibly is the biggest Jedi fan boy of all the authors in the EU) makes it quite clear that Fett being captured wasn't do incompetence or weakness. Direct quote." But the one thing she knew for certain was that if Fett had been expecting an attack from a plant, he wouldn't have been captured -and perhaps killed- by one"

 

I also like how you conveniently leave out the part where Boba Fett keeps his word and returns to rescue the Jedi that was captured helpless and about to be devoured. Not to mention that he stands his ground against a force god. I guess that part wouldn’t fit your blatantly obvious bias though.

 

Seriously, if you hate Traviss so much why do you continue to insist on behaving like her?

Edited March 28, 2012 by TheBentOne

[Captain_Zone]

Waitasec... Something just occurred to me, and I'm NOT just saying this as a Boba Fett fan....

 

IF Boba Fett was dead, according to G-Canon, then everything he affected in the ExU isn't canon either....

 

Most notably saving the Solo kids from the Separatist Alliance in the YJK series, among other things. So, without his help, when the Seps had Jacen and Jaina dead to rights, the rest of the ExU from then onward didn't happen that way. Jacen never grew up to become Darth Cadoucheus and never murdered Mara Jade. >.>

 

<.<

 

(waits to see if anyone buys it)

[Wolfninjajedi]

Waitasec... Something just occurred to me, and I'm NOT just saying this as a Boba Fett fan....

 

IF Boba Fett was dead, according to G-Canon, then everything he affected in the ExU isn't canon either....

 

Most notably saving the Solo kids from the Separatist Alliance in the YJK series, among other things. So, without his help, when the Seps had Jacen and Jaina dead to rights, the rest of the ExU from then onward didn't happen that way. Jacen never grew up to become Darth Cadoucheus and never murdered Mara Jade. >.>

 

<.<

 

(waits to see if anyone buys it)

 

Well it wouldn't be much of a stretch, to just replace Boba with some other character.

[Captain_Zone]

Well it wouldn't be much of a stretch, to just replace Boba with some other character.

 

Well, it was worth a shot.

[Mirdthestrill]

You also didn't read the whole section and in fact omitted sections to strengthen the argument. That is why a poster posted the section that had been omitted. There was nothing for me to comment on because someone had already torn that attempt at an argument asunder.

 

I did, in fact, read the entire section and did not "omit" anything. "Omission" implies that I left something out of the selected text, which I did not. I chose a section to display because it seemed like the one that most directly addressed the matter at hand. If you'd like to bring in other sections that prove your point, do so, by all means.

[Angryfan]

During the Mandalorian Wars the Mandalorians were only fighting the Republic when they were winning, as soon as the Jedi joined the fight the Mandos lost. Badly.

 

Not sure where you got that from since the Jedi only won at Malachor V because of the Jedi exile activating the Mass Shadow Generator before the Republic could be overwhelmed from behind. Mandalorians lost badly sure but it was a pyrrhic victory that also severely weakened the Republic and Jedi order. The cost involved in winning the war also turned many Jedi to the dark side and severely affected Revan and Malak in a negative way.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Angryfan

[Mythicrose]

Now, we look at the body count Luke Skywalker has racked up over the years:

 

Defeated Vader - A feat Boba never accomplished.

 

You say body count, but Luke only wounds Vader. Palpatine kills him with lightning coarsing through Vader's suit and i'm guessing shortening out all the life support systems.

 

Defeated the Emperor in lightsaber, and later Force combat - The most powerful Sith lord ever.

 

Luke didn't defeat RoTJ Palpatine. I'll assume you're speaking of a clone or something but I suppose a kill is a kill.

 

Defeated a clone of himself - Literally meaning that he killed Luke Skywalker better than Boba Fett could.

 

Luke may have disabled his clone, but I could've swore it was Mara Jade that struck the killing blow as her final act of "duty" as the Emporer's Hand. She remarks something along the line of the Emporer commanding telepathically or something her to kill Luke Skywalker as a result of Vader's betrayal. So nix the Luke clone from body count.

 

Defeated Darth Maul after Maul had his brain resurrected and placed in a device that let him create immortal solid light holograms of himself. A few dozen times.

 

When did this happen? Comics? Did I miss a series like I did with the Clone Emporer?

 

This list goes on and on and on...

 

Yeah...he does rack up a significant force user body count in FoTJ series. I still need to pick up the book following Conviction.

 

 

 

 

But yeah...Jaina going to Mandalore to train on how to kill a Sith Lord wasn't the most thought-out idea. Luke would've (or should've) been the obvious choice or even tutelege under Kyle "I'm Chuck Norris" Katarn, imo.

[mefit]

 

But yeah...Jaina going to Mandalore to train on how to kill a Sith Lord wasn't the most thought-out idea. Luke would've (or should've) been the obvious choice or even tutelege under Kyle "I'm Chuck Norris" Katarn, imo.

 

Kyle is awesome , maybe he should get sick of Luke's OPness and kill him , thus ending years worth of fanboys everywhere and beinging back Balance to the Force !

[Mirdthestrill]

You say body count, but Luke only wounds Vader. Palpatine kills him with lightning coarsing through Vader's suit and i'm guessing shortening out all the life support systems.

 

Indeed, very true.

 

Luke didn't defeat RoTJ Palpatine. I'll assume you're speaking of a clone or something but I suppose a kill is a kill.

 

Even if he is speaking of that ridiculous "clone emperor" arc, Palpatine is by no means the most powerful sith ever. Bane would mop the floor with Palpatine, and then beat him over the head with Vader.

 

Luke may have disabled his clone, but I could've swore it was Mara Jade that struck the killing blow as her final act of "duty" as the Emporer's Hand. She remarks something along the line of the Emporer commanding telepathically or something her to kill Luke Skywalker as a result of Vader's betrayal. So nix the Luke clone from body count.

 

Yup, it was Mara.

 

When did this happen? Comics? Did I miss a series like I did with the Clone Emporer?

 

Missed the "Shadows of the Empire" series. It was interesting to read once, but you're not missing much.

 

Yeah...he does rack up a significant force user body count in FoTJ series. I still need to pick up the book following Conviction.

 

And see, that's on of the things that bothers me. "Oh, look, I just came out of something like a week long coma with almost NO FOOD OR WATER, I'm badly injured, and I'll go kill twenty-something Sith Lords!" -Abyss, paraphrased.

 

 

But yeah...Jaina going to Mandalore to train on how to kill a Sith Lord wasn't the most thought-out idea. Luke would've (or should've) been the obvious choice or even tutelege under Kyle "I'm Chuck Norris" Katarn, imo.

 

Disagree, but still my opinion.

 

I half-agree. Answers in RED

[Guildrum]

Just finished reading the section in question. Here's the exact text:

 

He [beviin] came straight at her, stick raised, with an animal explosion of breath. Instantly she felt him change in the Force into complete lack of all emotion except a single...word, yes, almost a word: end. He closed in and rained blows on her like a machine, no style, no grace, no pause, until she fell back and he still kept hammering her while she lay in a ball and instinctively shielded her head. She wondered for a terrifying irrational moment if he really was going to beat her to death with this small stick. Was he ever going to stop? There was no hatred in there, just a terrible focus, the rest of the world shut out. Then something flipped a switch in her and she threw him back with the Force, scared for both of them.

 

Not like the Yuuzhan Vong at all. And obviously, this is not only an effective fighting technique but also something the Jedi Council is never going to be able to teach her. Not only that, but it's something that only Mandalorians would logically know how to do. Bang goes your argument, my good Professor.

 

Little late, but I had to respond to this. I fence, and I know for a fact that if you go up to a trained fencer (or in this case, Jedi) with "no style, no grace, no pause", you are going to be stuck in every place imaginable. When you attack someone as such, all it takes is one small parry or riposte to utterly toss you off-balance, that is if they didn't get you in one of your inevitably exposed vitals first. That paragraph is simply an example of the author's ignorance of exactly how fighting with swords works.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I half-agree. Answers in RED

 

Err...Bane would stand no chance against Palpatine, GL, novels and other sources have stated Palpatine is the strongest sith lord in history.

[Mirdthestrill]

Little late, but I had to respond to this. I fence, and I know for a fact that if you go up to a trained fencer (or in this case, Jedi) with "no style, no grace, no pause", you are going to be stuck in every place imaginable. When you attack someone as such, all it takes is one small parry or riposte to utterly toss you off-balance, that is if they didn't get you in one of your inevitably exposed vitals first. That paragraph is simply an example of the author's ignorance of exactly how fighting with swords works.

 

Possibly. He's really just unsettling her with a berserker charge that she didn't expect. It would only work once, obviously. The point he's trying to make is that Jacen won't be expecting it either, and it'll throw him off-balance just like it throws her.

[Guildrum]

Even if he is speaking of that ridiculous "clone emperor" arc, Palpatine is by no means the most powerful sith ever. Bane would mop the floor with Palpatine, and then beat him over the head with Vader.

 

Lucas says that Palpatine is the most powerful. Therefore, he is.

 

And see, that's on of the things that bothers me. "Oh, look, I just came out of something like a week long coma with almost NO FOOD OR WATER, I'm badly injured, and I'll go kill twenty-something Sith Lords!" -Abyss, paraphrased.

 

The Force did it.

 

 

Disagree, but still my opinion.

 

Why? Why go to a Mandalorian who has not killed a single force user in his life to train to kill force users, when you have force users to learn how to kill force users from?

 

Possibly. He's really just unsettling her with a berserker charge that she didn't expect. It would only work once, obviously. The point he's trying to make is that Jacen won't be expecting it either, and it'll throw him off-balance just like it throws her.

Except all she'd have to realistically do is hold her blade out in front of the guy while he's in full charge and she wins. Trust me, when I fence my opponents, about 2/3 of the time I touch them, it's when they are advancing too fast.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Guildrum

[Mirdthestrill]

Err...Bane would stand no chance against Palpatine, GL, novels and other sources have stated Palpatine is the strongest sith lord in history.

 

You sure about that? I mean, there's no direct way to compare them, so we can never really know, but in my opinion, Palpatine just capitalized on years of Sith planning. Bane, Orbalisk armor, Vs. Palpatine in his prime. Tough one to call, but I think Bane has the edge.

[Guildrum]

You sure about that? I mean, there's no direct way to compare them, so we can never really know, but in my opinion, Palpatine just capitalized on years of Sith planning. Bane, Orbalisk armor, Vs. Palpatine in his prime. Tough one to call, but I think Bane has the edge.

 

Lucas says Palpatine is the most powerful. Therefore, he is. It's like arguing with a reporter over what his article means to say.

[Rayla_Felana]

I half-agree. Answers in RED

 

1st. It is 100% Word of God Lucas canon that Sidious was the most powerful Sith ever, and that was just RotJ Sidious, never mind Palpatine Reborn, whom was even more powerful, the same Palpatine Reborn, pre-Grand Master Luke Skywalker faced and defeated in a duel, by cutting off his hand, only Mace Windu, quite possibly the second greatest lightsaber duellist ever, had accomplished.

 

2nd. How would a Mandalore know how to face a Sith Lord? Vader and Caedus were two very different versions of a Sith Lord as well, remember what Exar Kun and Darth Revan did to the last Mandalores that faced off a Sith? the Jedi would know infinitely more about fighting a Sith Lord, especially Grand Master Skywalker of all people.

[Mirdthestrill]

Except all she'd have to realistically do is hold her blade out in front of the guy while he's in full charge and she wins. Trust me, when I fence my opponents, about 2/3 of the time I touch them, it's when they are advancing too fast.

 

My point, however, is that she wasn't expecting it. The first time, she's expecting classic sparring, and he rushes her. She probably gets a hit or two on him, but his armor deflects it. And when he gets in close enough, he can just turn it into a brawl, something he has much more experience with.

 

Like I said, however, it would only work once. She would have the edge the next time, and defeat him, and by the third go-around she would be laying him on the ground before he was half-done with his charge.

[Rayla_Felana]

You sure about that? I mean, there's no direct way to compare them, so we can never really know, but in my opinion, Palpatine just capitalized on years of Sith planning. Bane, Orbalisk armor, Vs. Palpatine in his prime. Tough one to call, but I think Bane has the edge.

 

Even if we remove the word of god statements and numerous other sources, Sidious vs Bane w/ Orbalisks? okay, Sidious shocks Bane's armor and Bane goes catatonic, game over.

[Mirdthestrill]

2nd. How would a Mandalore know how to face a Sith Lord? Vader and Caedus were two very different versions of a Sith Lord as well, remember what Exar Kun and Darth Revan did to the last Mandalores that faced off a Sith? the Jedi would know infinitely more about fighting a Sith Lord, especially Grand Master Skywalker of all people.

 

How many times must I restate this? She went to learn things that the Jedi couldn't teach her. Caedus knows everything she has, and everything the Jedi have, so she had to pull something else to get an edge. Mandalorians have specific techniques they've developed over the centuries to give them that edge.

[Mirdthestrill]

Even if we remove the word of god statements and numerous other sources, Sidious vs Bane w/ Orbalisks? okay, Sidious shocks Bane's armor and Bane goes catatonic, game over.

 

Quite possibly true, but irrelevant. We're following a red herring here.

[Wolfninjajedi]

You sure about that? I mean, there's no direct way to compare them, so we can never really know, but in my opinion, Palpatine just capitalized on years of Sith planning. Bane, Orbalisk armor, Vs. Palpatine in his prime. Tough one to call, but I think Bane has the edge.

 

Well there actually is a way to compare them, look at what both can do and what they did. It all points to Palpatine, being superior then Bane in every way. But this isn't a thread for this discussions, so gonna end it here.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi