The Status Quo Has Been Restored

[Aximand]

Sigh. You all seem to be overlooking a very important point. This is what HER CHARACTERS THINK OF THEMSELVES. This book is from the PERSPECTIVE of the Mandalorians. Of course they think they can easily take Jedi down at any point, and some of them probably can. But why are you assuming this means they all can? Just because they say they can? What would the world be like if everyone believed everything the average six-year old said?

 

No it wasn't. Absolutely none of her Legacy books were written from a first person perspective.

[Invictos]

Sigh. You all seem to be overlooking a very important point. This is what HER CHARACTERS THINK OF THEMSELVES. This book is from the PERSPECTIVE of the Mandalorians. Of course they think they can easily take Jedi down at any point, and some of them probably can. But why are you assuming this means they all can? Just because they say they can? What would the world be like if everyone believed everything the average six-year old said?

 

You're ignoring the evidence. (Link, Link, Link, among countless others.)

 

Enjoy what you like, but don't tell me that up is down. Suffice to say that she didn't just write Mandalorian opinions of superiority as in-character opinions of superiority. She wrote situations that proved those opinions correct, even giving opposing characters lobotomies when it suited her idealogical purpose. (Also known as straw manning.)

Edited March 27, 2012 by Invictos

[DaWaffle]

Sigh. You all seem to be overlooking a very important point. This is what HER CHARACTERS THINK OF THEMSELVES. This book is from the PERSPECTIVE of the Mandalorians. Of course they think they can easily take Jedi down at any point, and some of them probably can. But why are you assuming this means they all can? Just because they say they can? What would the world be like if everyone believed everything the average six-year old said?

 

Nope, nope and nope.

 

First of all, methinks it mostly follows Jaina.

 

Secondly, me-also-thinks that the Mandalorians are specifically written to beat Jedi. There's no "perspective" to having lightsaber-proof armour. There's no "perspective" to being able to make yourself invisible to the force.

 

And the pathetic thing is that Jaina is renowned throughout the galaxy for being able to beat opponents with those exact same things. So there's also no "perspective" to her inexplicably forgetting how to beat it.

[Captain_Zone]

Hey, guys. The Fandalore has fallen. She's gone. No mas Karen Traviss. Right? Ok. Now, how about George retconns all her **** and we get Mara back? That would be cool, imo.

[Darth_Vicente]

Holy **** on a **** sandwich with **** on top, and a side order of ****.

 

 

Walsh made a thread I agree with. Going to drink myself silly and forget this day ever happened.

[Aximand]

Holy **** on a **** sandwich with **** on top, and a side order of ****.

 

 

Walsh made a thread I agree with. Going to drink myself silly and forget this day ever happened.

 

trollface.jpeg

[Invictos]

Nope, nope and nope.

 

First of all, methinks it mostly follows Jaina.

 

Secondly, me-also-thinks that the Mandalorians are specifically written to beat Jedi. There's no "perspective" to having lightsaber-proof armour. There's no "perspective" to being able to make yourself invisible to the force.

 

And the pathetic thing is that Jaina is renowned throughout the galaxy for being able to beat opponents with those exact same things. So there's also no "perspective" to her inexplicably forgetting how to beat it.

 

Yeah. I don't know how you could read the Legacy books, or heck, even a review of Traviss' Legacy books, without understanding how patronizing the writing was.

 

I don't even like Jaina/Jacen, and even I was insulted at the way Jaina turns into a googly-eyed ingenue in the company of Mandalorians -- a previously established heroine used as a rhetorical whipping post for Traviss and her Mary Sues. Whether you enjoy Traviss' previous work or not, she definitely went off the deep end in Legacy. Maybe her self-described exhaustion regimen finally caught up with her.

 

(By her own admission in that same interview, she sure doesn't believe in revision, which is in direct contrast with the famous old adage, tentatively attributed to Mark Twain -- "If I'd had more time, I'd have written a shorter letter." Maybe if she read more, she'd understand the significance of that lesson.)

[KitRoakr]

She literally made Jedi kyptonite for the mandalorians to use, as a matter of fact the OP says everything, invulnerable to lightsaber armor, etc, etc...

 

All of it screamed, the Mandalorians are so epic leet awesome that they have epic leet armor with epic leet skillz and pwnz Jedi.

 

That was Karen Traviss' use of Mandalorians, apparently, Jaina could learn more about defeating a Sith Lord from a Mandalorian than she ever could from the most powerful Jedi of all time.

 

She just had to have made Jaina inferior to the Mandalorians so she could say, this is the most promising Jedi, she knows nothing in comparison to the Mandalorians.

 

You can argue that this wasn't what she tried to do, but when she admits to it herself, and screams at her critics (literally) that she is right, Jedi suck and Mandalorians are the real heroes, your argument carries little weight.

 

OK! So this is far as I got before I had enough. It becomes blatantly clear when I read posts like this one that, as it has been put, Traviss-haters have not actually read the books. In some cases; any of the books. Let’s take a look at all this.

 

“She literally made Jedi kyptonite for the mandalorians to use, as a matter of fact the OP says everything, invulnerable to lightsaber armor, etc, etc...”

 

First… What is this Jedi kryptonite? This poster doesn’t know either, so she makes up a vague term to get across a fake point. Secondly, Beskar is not the first material in the Star Wars EU that is invulnerable (~) to lightsabers. Cortosis not only resists lightsaber cuts to a high degree, it also shuts down the light saber. Mando armor is not invulnerable to lightsabers and that is obvious if you actually read the books.

 

“All of it screamed, the Mandalorians are so epic leet awesome that they have epic leet armor with epic leet skillz and pwnz Jedi.”

 

Again. Another generalized statement that says you don’t really know so you make something up to bluster.

 

“That was Karen Traviss' use of Mandalorians, apparently, Jaina could learn more about defeating a Sith Lord from a Mandalorian than she ever could from the most powerful Jedi of all time.”

 

Well… Yeah! Luke had to rebuild the Jedi order from scratch and piece-meal his knowledge together with only limited training (a few weeks with Obi-wan and a few weeks with Yoda vs. 18 years of immersive training). Luke fought only a small handful of Sith by that time compared to the Mandalorians centuries of experience fighting both Sith and Jedi with a continuous line of passing–on of knowledge. Knowledge and experience does equal power, but power does not equal knowledge or experience. It’s not a one-to-one function.

 

“She just had to have made Jaina inferior to the Mandalorians so she could say, this is the most promising Jedi, she knows nothing in comparison to the Mandalorians.”

 

Once more; If you read the books, you’d know that Jaina was only taught one thing; how to fight without thinking about what you are doing. Without intent, the force does not warn the force-wielder. The whole point was to use the disadvantage of being a non-force sensitive to their advantage. It’s a common tactic to use your weaknesses to your own advantage in real life. Why can’t that be applied to a fantastical story? The Sith use intensity to increase their chances of success. So do the Mandalorians. The Mandalorains do not have the force, so they learned to mitigate force-users advantage with the Force. Nowhere does Traviss say or imply that Mandalorains are superior to Jedi or Sith. She only implies that Mandalorians have a useful tactic that greatly increase their chance of defeating Force-users. If it works, then the Mandos win every time. If it doesn’t; they will be lucky to survive the fight.

 

"You can argue that this wasn't what she tried to do, but when she admits to it herself, and screams at her critics (literally) that she is right, Jedi suck and Mandalorians are the real heroes, your argument carries little weight."

 

Uh… BS. This is just flat making stuff up. If you read it, then you can't say "screams at her critics (literally)". Unless you can back this up with video. Or where you there when it happened?

 

 

Let’s keep something else in mind. Every single author goes through a selection process that is fairly intense. Each book must be approved by Lucas Arts and receive final approval from George Lucas himself before it gets published. So… if it make it to print, then it is cannon and Lucas approved. Traviss is only different in one way. George Lucas sought her out and specifically hired her to develop and flesh out the Mandalorian culture. So all the Traviss hating is saying that George Lucas was the one in error. He sought her out, hired her, gave her guidelines to go by and approved her final product. Pretty simple.

[Mirdthestrill]

Nope, nope and nope.

 

First of all, methinks it mostly follows Jaina.

 

Secondly, me-also-thinks that the Mandalorians are specifically written to beat Jedi. There's no "perspective" to having lightsaber-proof armour. There's no "perspective" to being able to make yourself invisible to the force.

 

And the pathetic thing is that Jaina is renowned throughout the galaxy for being able to beat opponents with those exact same things. So there's also no "perspective" to her inexplicably forgetting how to beat it.

 

Okay, so Revelation is your main argument here. I thought you guys were arguing against all of her books, in which case the majority of them are written from the mandalorian perspective. I'll pull out Revelation and give it another quick read, then repost my thoughts when I'm slightly more reeducated on the subject.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Err...Kit Luke actually had 3 years of training throughout the movies(starts in ANH, ends at the beginning of ROTJ), then as we go into the EU he gains more experience and knowledge and becomes the most powerful jedi ever. So....why wouldn't he know how to fight a Sith Lord? Edited March 27, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Invictos]

Uh… BS. This is just flat making stuff up. If you read it, then you can't say "screams at her critics (literally)". Unless you can back this up with video. Or where you there when it happened?

 

When you're throwing around terms like, "Nazi," it really doesn't matter whether you scream or you whisper; your vehemence is given.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Invictos

[Mirdthestrill]

Err...Kit Luke actually had 3 years of training throughout the movies(starts in ANH, ends at the beginning of ROTJ), then as we go into the EU he gains more experience and knowledge and becomes the most powerful jedi ever. So....why wouldn't he know how to fight a Sith Lord?

 

"Training". Try a couple weeks with Yoda and a couple weeks with Ben. You're acting like he was training solid through that whole time. Not so. He was fighting for the rebellion for most of that.

[Wolfninjajedi]

"Training". Try a couple weeks with Yoda and a couple weeks with Ben. You're acting like he was training solid through that whole time. Not so. He was fighting for the rebellion for most of that.

 

I'm not just talking about with Ben and Yoda, his whole time of and between the movies he trained. Weither with Ben or Yoda, or just by himself he trained for 3 years this is including the movies and the EU between the movies.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kilikaa]

This is incorrect. There was no such event that made them use non-living armor, the 'vong don't do that, nor was the armor ever depicted as being less lightsaber resistant. The entire concept of using a non-living device goes against the entire religious basis for the 'Vong who would literally rather die than ever do something that they see as blasphemous.

 

 

Please stop trying to defend Traviss here, it has long been documented and admitted by Traviss herself that she made the mistake due to never having read a Star Wars book before.

 

How, exactly, did I defend Traviss? I believe I stated that I did not agree with her handling of the Mandalorians or Jaina/Mara. I also called her a liar. And yes, The Vondun Crab armor was referred to as living and after the event I mentioned they stopped using the living version because they feared the widespread use of the tree pollen. Re-read the NJO and I bet you will find what I am talking about. If I am wrong then post the information and I will gladly admit I am wrong and retract my statements.

[VanorDM]

Each book must be approved by Lucas Arts and receive final approval from George Lucas himself before it gets published

 

That's simply not true. Unless George was lying when he said that he has never read a single EU novel.

 

I've seen this said more then once, but I have yet to see a single source back up this claim that George personally approves anything. I have however seen him say that he doesn't read those books, and has no intention of ever reading them.

[TheBentOne]

Err...Kit Luke actually had 3 years of training throughout the movies(starts in ANH, ends at the beginning of ROTJ), then as we go into the EU he gains more experience and knowledge and becomes the most powerful jedi ever. So....why wouldn't he know how to fight a Sith Lord?

 

Luke absolutely wipes the floor with Jacen in their duel aboard the Anikian Solo, and the books make it glaringly obvious that he could’ve killed Jacen any time he felt like it. But in order for the series to reach the magic number of nine books they had to make up some bogus reason why Luke couldn't just finish him (because Luke, a dude who killed plenty of dark siders before this moment is afraid of falling to the dark side if he kills Jacen. This is made even more ridiculous when in FOTJ Luke callously remarks "some people don’t deserve mercy" while chopping countless sith into itty bitty pieces for no better reason than that they are sith.).

 

If Luke would’ve had the balls to remove Jacen's head from his neck when he had the chance. This happens.

 

1. While it doesn’t make up for the butchery of Mara's char, it at least is a relatively satisfying end to the arc, and it doesn’t leave Jacen as a lameduck villain who is only in power because the hero’s let him stay there

2. Traviss doesn’t get to write Revelation

3. Admiral Gilad Pellaeon is still alive and is assigned the position of interim head of state instead of Daala who is still chilling out in the maw. (being a war hero of both the GA and the empire and an honest and honorable man, Gil is a believable choice to fill in as head of state. At very least he is approximately 9 billion times more believable than Daala)

 

EDIT: I fixed some spelling errors. As it has been pointed out there were a lot of them.

Edited March 27, 2012 by TheBentOne

[Mirdthestrill]

I'm not just talking about with Ben and Yoda, his whole time of and between the movies he trained. Weither with Ben or Yoda, or just by himself he trained for 3 years this is including the movies and the EU between the movies.

 

Yes...training yourself as a Jedi...we all know how well that works. He really didn't honestly have that much training. Granted, he could take any known Sith Lord completely apart, just because he's incredibly OP, but he had nowhere close to three years of complete training.

[Aximand]

Luke absolutly wipes the floor with Jacen in thier duel aboard the Anikian Solo, and the books make it glaringly obvious that he couldve killed Jacen any time he felt like it. But in order for the series to reach the magic number of nine books they had to make up some bogus reason why luke couldn't just finish him (because luke, a dude who killed plenty of dark siders before this moment is afraid of falling to the dark side if he kills Jacen. This is made even more rediculous when in FOTJ Luke calously remarks "some people dont deserve mercy" while chopping countless sith into itty bitty peices for no better reason then that they are sith.).

 

If Luke wouldve had the balls to remove Jacen's head from his neck when he had the chance. This happens.

 

1. While it dosn't make up for the butchery of Mara's char, it at least is a relitivly satisfing end to the arc, and it dosnt leave Jacen as a lameduck villian who is only in power because the heros let him stay there

2. Traviss dosnt get to write Revelation

3. Admiral Gilad Pellaeon is still alive and is assigned the position of interim head of state instead of Daala who is still chilling out in the maw. (being a war hero of both the GA and the empire and an honest and honnorable man Gil is a belevable choice to fill in as head of state. At very least he is approxamatly 9 billion times more belevable than Dalaa.)

 

Horrendous grammar and spelling aside, I completely agree.

[Mirdthestrill]

Horrendous grammar and spelling aside, I completely agree.

 

I didn't actually think Luke's reasoning for not killing Jacen was that bad. Why do you insist on taking every single event that happened in the books and then casting it in the worst possible light? Do you even LIKE Star Wars?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Yes...training yourself as a Jedi...we all know how well that works. He really didn't honestly have that much training. Granted, he could take any known Sith Lord completely apart, just because he's incredibly OP, but he had nowhere close to three years of complete training.

 

Hmm...well seeing as in three years, he matched his father's form, learned a lightsaber form completely on the fly while he fought his father. I believe Luke also used Tutaminis in the ROTJ novel, to absorb a small portion of Sidious's lighting. Theres more to his training, and it goes further into it in the novels though I don't what he learned or how fast. Professor would probably know, a lot more.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aximand]

I didn't actually think Luke's reasoning for not killing Jacen was that bad. Why do you insist on taking every single event that happened in the books and then casting it in the worst possible light? Do you even LIKE Star Wars?

 

There's a difference between liking Star Wars and blindly accepting everything that happens in the Extended Universe as awesome. As a whole, I thought the entire Legacy series was extremely sub par, Traviss' "contributions" being the biggest offenders.

[KitRoakr]

There's a difference between liking Star Wars and blindly accepting everything that happens in the Extended Universe as awesome. As a whole, I thought the entire Legacy series was extremely sub par, Traviss' "contributions" being the biggest offenders.

 

Why? Please be more specific. I am interested in hearing what people don't like and why. Not just that they did or didn't. Tell us what you didn't like and what you beleive is wrong with it. I am geuinely interested. I liked the Traviss arcs a lot. But I will listen to anyone's opinions.

[TheBentOne]

I didn't actually think Luke's reasoning for not killing Jacen was that bad. Why do you insist on taking every single event that happened in the books and then casting it in the worst possible light? Do you even LIKE Star Wars?

 

I do like Star Wars. That dosn't mean i have to like every Star Wars novel that comes out. Legacy just isnt very good. They took a trilogy worth of material and streched it out to nine books for the sake of money and it didn't work.

[Mirdthestrill]

Why? Please be more specific. I am interested in hearing what people don't like and why. Not just that they did or didn't. Tell us what you didn't like and what you beleive is wrong with it. I am geuinely interested. I liked the Traviss arcs a lot. But I will listen to anyone's opinions.

 

Agreed. You really haven't given us anything besides debatable accusations about canon and bad-mouthing Traviss in hopes that that will somehow affect our view of the stories themselves. I'm willing to listen.

[Aximand]

Why? Please be more specific. I am interested in hearing what people don't like and why. Not just that they did or didn't. Tell us what you didn't like and what you beleive is wrong with it. I am geuinely interested. I liked the Traviss arcs a lot. But I will listen to anyone's opinions.

 

Read the thread, I've already stated it all ad nauseam, I'm not going to do it again just because you haven't bothered to read the thread.

 

Agreed. You really haven't given us anything besides debatable accusations about canon and bad-mouthing Traviss in hopes that that will somehow affect our view of the stories themselves. I'm willing to listen.

 

Just because you don't want to read what I type doesn't mean I haven't stated my reasons. Quite often in just this thread.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Aximand