Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 So your charge /graple are on same 2 minute cd?, oh wait you play pyrotech. 1 word. Rail shot. /end charge is in the tanking tree, and since tank or even hybrid tank/dps pts have about half of the dps as an op....they better have more uptime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) If you want to play a stealth dps in Rated WZ 8 man team, there really is no contest between operative and assassin. I am more effective on my assassin naked than i am on my operative full BM/rakata mix, in Hutball. Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 He will never get it, so let this young individual be with his 'Lots' of melee range croud control, which could be used as a gap closers' and 'stealthing to an enemy as an incombat target switch'. giving a stealth class with the ability to stunlock someone to death and are hard to get away from by yourself more mobility is a bad idea. hmm....where does this sound familiar? oh right, mutilate rogues from back in wrath of the lich king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) If you want to play a stealth dps in Rated WZ 8 man team, there really is no contest between operative and assassin. I am more effective on my assassin naked than i am on my operative full BM/rakata mix, in Hutball. hyperbole to the extreme. ill agree that assassins are better than ops, but really you can make the argument that assassins are also better than juggs or pts. and you conveniently left out alderaan and void star, two out of the three WZs in which ops excel. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VertisReaper Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 i think "unplayable" is a gross exaggeration.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 hyperbole to the extreme. ill agree that assassins are better than ops, but really you can make the argument that assassins are also better than juggs or pts. It was a comparison between stealth classes, i wasn't aware juggs and pts had stealth . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) i think "unplayable" is a gross exaggeration.. Unplayable only comes to mind in premades. Solo queue on both sides without premades on either, i do great on my ops. I do 2x better on my assassin tho. Only one that loses playability in ranked WZ teams, is operative dps. For example, on my operative, solo guarding turret and 3 ppl come to take it. I sleep dart play them, and orbital strike, and los until i get reinforcements. On my assassin, i kill them all 3. In Ranked 8 man team WZ, your stealth 50% hp relic/adrenal infused dmg burst, is negated by healer and you have 0 utility and hit like a wet towel out of stealth and are wearing tinfoil armor. On assassin ...you have best utility on 1 single class and hey you are immortal (hey u got healers) Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 It was a comparison between stealth classes, i wasn't aware juggs and pts had stealth . no, but pts and juggs are tank classes, and i was comparing...GASP....tank classes to tank classes! its almost like im comparing apples to apples! mind boggling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbad Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 no, but pts and juggs are tank classes, and i was comparing...GASP....tank classes to tank classes! its almost like im comparing apples to apples! mind boggling! Why do you even post in this thread? Assuming you are staying on topic with the original post, are you proposing a Vanguard/PT do not have a place in rated 8v8 either? Assuming you are not staying on topic, stop trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Why do you even post in this thread? Assuming you are staying on topic with the original post, are you proposing a Vanguard/PT do not have a place in rated 8v8 either? Assuming you are not staying on topic, stop trolling. in huttball? yes they can, but you are better off replacing them with a jugg or assassin as they bring more to the table. overall in huttball i would probably label pts the 4th or 5th most useful class in there (with sorcs, assassins, jugs, and possibly maras being higher) in alderaan/voidstar? pts are one of the worst classes. they bring nothing to the table but damage, and there are plenty of classes that bring that and more, ops included. i, at least, can be honest and subjective, unlike yourself. if ranked WZs= huttball only.... teams may very well have one pt on their team. pts are not optimal by any means, but they can do a passable job and are still useful. just like ops in alderaan and voidstar. also, if ranked wzs= huttball only, THEN i will support a gap closer...or a knockback. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwrtheyn Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) in team combat powertech is top,since it is the best way to get a healer with guard down. cc tank->grapple healer -> dead healer with good focus only PT/Assa are able to shut down so easy the guard Edited March 25, 2012 by gwrtheyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goulet Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) You have alot of crowd control abilities which can be used as gap closers... IF you really want to get another gap-closer like sprint and or shadowstep you need to give up something in exchange. a single target stun on a 45 s cd usable within 4m a aoe stun on a 1 minute cd, 10m range a slow 10m range. most dps ops will have the 2 second knockdown from hidden strike. hardly a lot. gap closers? from within 10m sure but when everyone realize if they get outside of 10m you're hosed thats the issue. Something easily accomplished with the duration of the majority of cc's, to which the only counter is your cc break. What other class finds themselves outside of 10ms and is melee, and their only option is to run back in? As for the giving something up relative to other melee classes -powertech: has more armor, the same number of base cc's and a gap closer -assassin: has the same number of base ccs, has less armor (but has defensive bonuses from ac), and has a gap closer -jugg: has more armor, more sustained damage, 2 stuns one single one aoe, a knockback, which resets their gap closer, and has access to a 2nd gap closer through trees -marauder: doesn't have much cc, better damage, the same armor, and a gap closer, and access to a second. I could make more of an argument for their in combat stealth as a gap closer then operatives 2-2.5 minute cd combat vanish. all melee based classes that have a ranged component (powertech/sin) with the exception of operatives have a gap closer. Yes operatives can heal, but unlike other healing classes, my primary damage isn't ranged, so it doesn't employ the same tactics in defeating your enemy. Ranged can still dps and heal, operatives can't. Nor does healing funciton as a proper gap closer (heal+move+heal+move isn't a great gap closing strategy). additionally i though the point of the upcoming patch was to minimize the advantages of hybrid specs, so the heal card would seem to be a diminished defense for a lack of a gap closer. as far as dps healing for ops most specs include healing bonuses for reduced pushback, tactical advantage from your big heal. big heal=2 second cast. default:purge, 2nd quick heal that uses a tactical advantage. healing for dps revolves around the big heal, in that its the only heal you have until you proc a ta. Its the only thing you ever need to use an interrupt on vs an operative dps in pvp. the only other thing they use with a cast time is orbital strike. Edited March 25, 2012 by goulet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrolite Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Operative... the class that never left beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 powertech (grapple) try again. i would have awarded some points for assassin, but they can force sprint. and i noticed people are calling a potential gap closer shadowstep, meaning they are familiar with wow. in that case they should be familiar with the fact that rogues didnt get shadowstep until they went from a high burst stunlock setup to a zero burst, medium sustained, high uptime setup where their opening 10 seconds of dps didnt really matter (on their own). Isnt it the situation we have here? You will never be able to burst down to death someone equaly geared and a part of a coordinated team. Never. And coming back to a closing: How many seconds do your graple need to take affect after you press a botton? And then compare it with 2 mins CD which only makes u invisible and give slight movement speed increase, but you still need to WALK toward your target. And you have all chances to eat a slow or a AOE wich will break stealth and completley deny your attempt. And thats it. After youve wasted your cloaking screen for 2 mins you have nothing. You will be forsed to stay at your curret target to not loose your effectivness completely, but most likely wil be kited. I stated taht dps operatives/scoundrels are unplayable in team based pvp, because of a questions we need to answer to get place in a team: - Why do i need dps operative in my team instead of any other dps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytycal Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Ops bring one thing darkness sins don't, and that's burst damage. Against a decent premade with healers, tank assassins are not going to be killing anything, it will take coordinated spike damage, and that's where operatives shine. Edited March 25, 2012 by Krytycal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Ops bring one thing darkness sins don't, and that's burst damage. Against a decent premade with healers, tank assassins are not going to be killing anything, it will take coordinated spike damage, and that's where operatives shine. It would be so if operative would be able to get to the place, where that spike damage is needed in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Ops bring one thing darkness sins don't, and that's burst damage. Against a decent premade with healers, tank assassins are not going to be killing anything, it will take coordinated spike damage, and that's where operatives shine. If the team has no healers, sure. IF the entire other team is all heavy armor players with healers, you might as well afk, there won't be any difference. Lets play HUTBALL , where as an operative you will spend most of your time in the pit in rated wz. And since you can not chose your rated WZ, not only you are gimping yourself in every WZ by bringing operative DPS, but in hutball you ensure your defeat. Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goulet Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) here's a thought: how about you just make the group stealth usable in combat? (keeps you in combat though, should not act like combat vanish to avoid both stealth classes ability to sap suddenly in the middle of combat without using a self stealth ability) any team mates unaware of its incoming use that are engaged in combat are going to stay in combat and out of stealth the minute they use an attack. you can't interact with objects while stealthed, your movement speed is reduced, and it has a finite duration like marauders. To interact you have to come out of stealth, then interact, not interact and be automatically removed from stealth. its useless right now it the majority of applications. the most frequent use (mind you it doesnt happen frequently) is in defending in alderaan, when a group is coming and you want to jump one target specifically like a healer, and in voidstar for door rushing. i dont know that making it usable in combat suddenly horribly imbalances these situations, as its still counterable (and those which counter it are used frequently in those situations). its buffed by pvp gear but is one of the most underutilized abilities, and its utility or lack there of isn't the result of player choice, theres just limited need/ability to use it. Edited March 25, 2012 by goulet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Ops bring one thing darkness sins don't, and that's burst damage. Against a decent premade with healers, tank assassins are not going to be killing anything, it will take coordinated spike damage, and that's where operatives shine. Ehhh, not really. They took most of the burst out of the opener way back when. Against any decently geared teamed (and one that is running tanks and healers), the burst is going to be minimal at best. Double Opener helps, but that will be gone in 1.2 (and it should). So basically we're left with some mild burst. At least the healing tree is getting better. That's what I keep telling myself. Too bad I'm not that fond of healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosestick Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Why bring a good op? Amazing spike damage that can catch enemy healers off guard. Not the solo killer they are in pugs, but as part of the assist train. Why bring most of the ops in this thread? Lawl, no reason to bring bads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytycal Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Ehhh, not really. They took most of the burst out of the opener way back when. Against any decently geared teamed (and one that is running tanks and healers), the burst is going to be minimal at best. Double Opener helps, but that will be gone in 1.2 (and it should). So basically we're left with some mild burst. At least the healing tree is getting better. That's what I keep telling myself. Too bad I'm not that fond of healing. Operatives still have plenty of burst even after the nerf. Anyone who's ever played a healer will tell you that concealment ops are a lot scarier than darkness assassins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Why bring a good op? Amazing spike damage that can catch enemy healers off guard. Not the solo killer they are in pugs, but as part of the assist train. Why bring most of the ops in this thread? Lawl, no reason to bring bads. Most top ranked teams will be a mix of tanks/marauders/healers. Operative does what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytycal Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Most top ranked teams will be a mix of tanks/marauders/healers. Operative does what? Operatives are the best class at killing marauders, too. Edited March 25, 2012 by Krytycal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Operatives are the best class at killing marauders, too. 1v1? sure i kill them fine. Competent 8 man team on voice chat with healers? pfff /lmao Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krytycal Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 1v1? sure i kill them fine. Competent 8 man team on voice chat with healers? pfff /lmao If you have a competent 8 man team as well I don't see why you couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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