Does an MMO need a story?

[MGriffith]

I'm taking the other stance to the OP, game manufacturers shouldn't try to cater for both types of player. This game is a story based MMORPG, they should have dropped the instanced PvP and Ops, placed them in the context of the story and made the game for one type of play style.

 

*nods*

A modified 'Marian's Stamp Collectors' dilemma (internetz for those who recognise the reference )

Sadly the cost involved in creating an A title MMO is such that decisions are ulitmately made by the accountants and bean counters, not by a creative team. This means that the 'cater to the largest possible group and then some' mentality will triumph.

Basically WoW has 10million subscribers, WoW has a linear gameplay that aims at moving playes as quickly and efficiently into the endgame raids and PvP arenas as possible. Ergo any new game must do the same to stand a chance at those 10 million subscribers.

Sadly, I can not even find fault with the reasoning. Apparently the majority of the potential mmo players use WoW as the measure of all things and want something similar with exciting new pictures. The group who wants something else is too small to justify investing 100+ million dollars.

 

Let other MMOs cater for another type of play style. In my opinion what's killing this is the fact they they are trying to please everyone. Choose your play style, select your player base and cater for them. Let those who do not like the game's direction go somewhere else.

 

By and large that would be a better direction to take the gaming industry in (or rather, back to, as following the UO open world PvP debacle few games dared to include PvP unless it was all they did. Dark Age of Camelot was the first major title outside of Korea after a long while that made PvP the central part of their game. WoW only grew into it over time, and mostly because the single player game brought a demographic into mmo gaming that thrived on PvP).

 

On a more practical note, creating a purely PvE game requires a lot more investment and will still be raid-centric, with all the drama that demographic brings along with it. The problem is that players, and especially the most dedicated and fanatical part of them, can burn through new content that took months to create in a matter of days. No development studio can hope to outpace players. As such the retreat towads PvP is not exactly laziness of the designers as well as surrendering to the inevitable. PvPers don't need content, they need other players, so they can be kept happy and playing a lot easier than the hard core raider community.

The big problem here is that there is relatively little overlap between the three groups. PvPers are pretty much never casual (they would not be able to play unless they minmax everything or the game is a lot more forgiving in builds and stats than is usual). Casuals rarely if ever see the inside of a raid (of operation) because it takes time and training to form a smoothly functioning army capable of taking on encounters designed to challenge players that eke out the last behind the comma bit of power out of the game systems. And only a subset of the raiders will enjoy PvP because it requires an entirely different mindset.

By restricting the game to only one group you also significantly reduce the playerbase, and that is something that will make finding funding for your game a lot harder. Especially if you need 100million or more. This means that the next big change is of necessity coming from an indi game, or not until after it becomes significantly cheaper (as in less than half the current budget) to create an A title mmo.

Edited March 25, 2012 by MGriffith

[ZORG]

Does an MMO need a story?

 

In hindsight? nope, it was ok the first time around, but I'll never level an alt thats for sure... I just want to create my own story, do world PVP and socialise in the Star Wars universe, craft my own wears (Properly) and customise my appearance. I'd play SWG, in which I could do this to my hearts content, but oh yea, they shut that down to make way for SWtOR.

 

Did SWG even have an outline for your characters history and origins? How would you know what quests there was without SOME direction. I find it hard to believe after creation they just dropped you into the game with no guidance or direction. If true i would HATE that.

 

Perhaps there was a main quest line to follow then various NPCs spread out through out the game offering more quests? Wait thats what SWTOR is.

 

Perhaps SWTOR did some research and also played all these games and found out how boring and grindy EQ crafting was. Perhaps (Being a story based developer) they found that just having a wall of text that writers spent so much time writing wasnt being read. I suppose you could make the argument that the VO is only good the first go round but it just makes it seem more real and is easier for alot of people to see the story if they choose to. Most just spacebar through it and thats fine I DO TOO at times but i have that choice. If it was all TEXT ide miss the ENTIRE STORY cause I HATE reading anything but car magazines.

 

There was MANY MANY MANY MANYtimes i tried to log in to EQ (WARRIOR CLASS) to try to play only to log right out cause all the good camps were taken and the WAIT LIST was to dam long.

 

THERE IS NO WAIT LIST IN SWTOR!!!!!!!!

 

I can log in and play right away i dont NEED a group. I LIKE to group but dont NEED it.

 

What i would like is instead of separate servers totally isolated take all these servers put them in a cluster and only have ONE server per region to log into. That server controles what servers in the farm get used. This way we have a community of 1.7 million and a really vibrant GTN Market. Imagin with that many people crafting you would always find what you want and prices wouldnt be insane. There could be negatives too but worth a conversation.

[Hotbox]

Here's the deal...

 

SWTOR did change the playing field a bit in MMO's with the voice acted storyline, but in doing so it took MMO's backwards a bit-- back to more solo oriented game, instead of a dynamic universe that traditionally has been the hall mark of MMO's

 

In the end, there is no way a development staff can keep up with players demand for new content because it takes far more time to write and code an instance or a quest than it does to play it out. As a result, because of the demand requirements of this sort of an MMO, it is inherently doomed to subscription failure as people just get plain bored of rolling alts. Development teams typically fail to grasp and often underestimate players abilities to churn through content.

 

That being said, the way to successfully develop a long term MMO that players won't drop is to extend grind times and loot drops so that development can keep players subscribed until the new content comes out. This is why WOW was successful, and why people are catching on and quitting the game: they drew you in so that you constantly were looking for that next piece of loot that might take weeks to get.

 

It's also why I never got into WOW, I knew in the end it was just a waste time spinning wheel in a hamster cage, and caught on early. Lots in my guild still buy into.

 

I'm old school-- I like to make my own content and look for a strategic long term element to a game. It's why I loved SWG, for me and my friends it was about the open world sandbox element and the long term strategic game of territorial PVP. It was about planting your flag on a planet and perhaps moving on to another. It was about crafting gear that was unique and difficult to make. It was about opening your own shop and decorating your own house. People stopped playing SWG when the game became outdated and they moved away from that model, not because a sandbox element game is a destined failure.

 

In short, it invested player ownership in the universe, something WOW and now SWTOR have not been able to accomplish.

 

Until a player has some skin in the game as to the universe around them, they are simply nothing more than a subscription waiting to run out of content and hit the cancel button. One day some smart gaming company is going to produce an SWG game with the polish and gaming engine of a WOW or SWTOR and is going to make billions.

 

And until that happens I wait in breathless anticipation of how glorious it might be.

[Suomipoika]

very true they went overboard with the voiceacting, most of it just was not needed, but to say that the game is "total disaster" because of it is just silly, nevermind how the world will end tomorrow or today, give me break if the game is so bad why are you still here? very sad i would rather be playing a game i enjoyed than spending time bashing a game i didnt.

Kids today what are you going to do, notice i said kid not gamer

 

U know, u can keep asking "why are you still here" till theres 2 people left and even after that?

[DarkCarnage]

i think stroy add alot to the RPG side of the MMORPG.

 

(for teh following be using my undead char, my fist of 8 wow alts)

in wow i awake as a undead,one of thousands, stublealong, get to bree, later go os undercity, meeet the lady Salvanas(likely misspelled). after a while thought i'm still 1 of thousands, there was not great hope or destiny for me, i jsut muddle through and do what i can. there were a few poeple of note, Thrall, hellscream and the like, but if you did not really look around or know wow from prior games you likely did not remeber them that much. and always fun asa starting getting jumped by the crusade if you were unluck to explore the wrong way. a lvl 10-ish zone and then bam, lvl 30-40 zone(plauge lands i think)

 

in SWTOR (sith warroir) you get pulled in before most poeple, trained, betry a few poeple, get under a power player(darn you Baras) i become a specail one a high ranked sith warroir, not just a hey you(from wow) i'm am Lord #####(enter name)after this everyone i meet know i'm lord #### and tremble in fear of me. i meet alot of poeple, Mangus,Baras, The Dark loards, etc,but unlikely wow you less likely to know them since tehy not used in prior games so you always meeting new poeple. Thanks to the stroy i have a direction and a reason to move forward.

 

 

in wow i only moved forward due to me being bored and and i wanted to lvl so i had to find a spot were to go to do that(in wow that be fromb rr to under city, to shadow fang keep, airthi highlands, etc) you dropped off and hard to find something to do in wow, in SWTOR you come to a planet you like told to come here to stop X, recover Y, etc in a mission and there happends to be quest givers in route fi you take them, or not if you want to speed through the stroy.

[ZORG]

Here's the deal...

 

SWTOR did change the playing field a bit in MMO's with the voice acted storyline, but in doing so it took MMO's backwards a bit-- back to more solo oriented game, instead of a dynamic universe that traditionally has been the hall mark of MMO's

 

In the end, there is no way a development staff can keep up with players demand for new content because it takes far more time to write and code an instance or a quest than it does to play it out. As a result, because of the demand requirements of this sort of an MMO, it is inherently doomed to subscription failure as people just get plain bored of rolling alts. Development teams typically fail to grasp and often underestimate players abilities to churn through content.

 

That being said, the way to successfully develop a long term MMO that players won't drop is to extend grind times and loot drops so that development can keep players subscribed until the new content comes out. This is why WOW was successful, and why people are catching on and quitting the game: they drew you in so that you constantly were looking for that next piece of loot that might take weeks to get.

 

It's also why I never got into WOW, I knew in the end it was just a waste time spinning wheel in a hamster cage, and caught on early. Lots in my guild still buy into.

 

I'm old school-- I like to make my own content and look for a strategic long term element to a game. It's why I loved SWG, for me and my friends it was about the open world sandbox element and the long term strategic game of territorial PVP. It was about planting your flag on a planet and perhaps moving on to another. It was about crafting gear that was unique and difficult to make. It was about opening your own shop and decorating your own house. People stopped playing SWG when the game became outdated and they moved away from that model, not because a sandbox element game is a destined failure.

 

In short, it invested player ownership in the universe, something WOW and now SWTOR have not been able to accomplish.

 

Until a player has some skin in the game as to the universe around them, they are simply nothing more than a subscription waiting to run out of content and hit the cancel button. One day some smart gaming company is going to produce an SWG game with the polish and gaming engine of a WOW or SWTOR and is going to make billions.

 

And until that happens I wait in breathless anticipation of how glorious it might be.

 

Sounds like SIMS STAR WARS then a mmo RPG I will admit the PVP in SWTOR is just a QUAKEFEST DEATHMATCH. Maybey thats why i dont pvp..

[Baelish]

So why has it failed then?

Disappointment, mostly.

 

Rail-shooter space missions.

Appalling cookie-cutter missions on-world.

Frustration built in at every opportunity (itemisation in crafting, balance between gift and gather missions in mission skills, space stations and speeder restrictions, inflexible UI, lack of Guild features; the list goes on).

 

It's the story that has killed this game as an MMO...

Nah. It's the presentation of the story. The story itself is hardly expensive. Or if it was, they were ripped off.

 

I played WOW for 6 years and have no idea who any of the NPC characters are except that I know Thrall is leader of the Orcs and some woman is leader of Undercity, that is all I know.

That's pretty darn oblivious. Really. It also points up that you're missing half of the genre name, and why. SWTOR isn't an MMO, it's an MMORPG. Role Playing Game. You see how language, misused, can alter people's perceptions and expectations of the world.

 

 

You see in a good MMO you can make your own stories up if you are provided with the tools, WOW...

Had a story too. It was just the same story for every character you made, and any story you created for yourself.

 

 

...the tools: A thriving world...

Only a consequence of other factors.

 

...great world pvp...

Very server-dependent that one.

 

...cross server pvp...

Only eventually.

 

...excellent crafting...

ORLY? "Excellent" wouldn't be the word I'd use to describe WoW's crafting systems. The concepts behind SWTOR's systems are vastly superior; they just need to sort out the balance of crafted vs drop.

 

 

...it had IMMERSION!

You aren't using that word to describe what I'd recognise as "Immersion".

 

...game designers now focus far to much on story, gloss and other asthetics...

How can they not when the first thing that will get complained about is the aesthetics?

 

These days an MMORPG needs a story. A story-free world will never be get the level of subs that SWTOR has. Story builds immersion, drags you into the game and creates emotional investment. EVE, for example, lacks that aspect of the game, and that's one of the reasons I dropped my sub: I don't have time to drive my own story in that sort of environment; I'm playing (and paying) to be entertained. Unfortunately for SWTOR, the story and continuity is pretty low calibre, on average, and the entertainment is waning pretty fast.

 

 

...game designers... forget about having fun...

So do players.

 

Hopefully this games failure will be the kick up the arse the gaming industry needs.

It won't be. The gaming industry isn't run by people who understand it, unfortunately. It's run by MBAs who couldn't imagine their way out of a mostrously boring wait.

 

I don't think that your reasons for disappointment are all invalid, but I do think you're wearing somewhat rose tinted specs when you look back at WoW. I do think that my, differing, reasons for disappointment show that SWTOR has failed from both directions. Computer-mediated gaming can't, yet, handle the sort of player-generated story creation we both want, in an environment that will be comfortable for lightweights like myself who read of the atrocity that was UO noobcamping and kept well away from MMORPGs for years.

 

I had a brief look at Tera yesterday, and their "endgame" political system looks like it might actually be an environment where players and Guilds can generate their own story. Or it could be swamped by Goon Squad.

[Hotbox]

Another thing, one thing I do miss in MMO's is the random stat generated loot. Nowadays, MMO's have loot 'tables' and you know what loot drops from what mob-- therefore people who are looking for the best gear have to either farm instances or PVP Bg's.

 

SWG had a random loot generator in it, as did most older MMO's , so that each item was potentially unique in stats. A lance might drop for one person and have 100 damage, another might get 1000. The same applied to crafting as well, with modifiers built in for the quality of the resources.

 

I miss that because that sort of a system allows for harder working players to achieve something no one else had before them and kept you motivated to keep working toward a better toon, and everyone looked different.

 

Now, one person's ruby red lightsaber of doom is the same as another person's ruby red lightsaber of doom.

 

It's hard to feel heroic about that.

[Mordresh]

We are three months down the road and it's fair to say it's been a total disaster for Bioware and EA.

 

What? They're holding 1.7 million subs well over the initial free month. You call that a disaster? What do you call a success?

 

 

Also, in my opinion, yes the story is an amazing addition. I didn't even look at my xp-bar while leveling, it made leveling fun and that's something I don't think any mmorpg has managed to do before.

[oursacrifice]

The reality, OP, is that you have no idea what an MMO is. I am sure you and your WoWbuddies have conquered every last raid you could get your hands on, but that doesn't make you an authority on MMOs...it just makes you another shortsighted consumer with an opinion.

 

SWTOR actually has provided so much more than recent MMOs have in terms of ACTUALLY being an MMO...but you guys wouldn't realize it because you have been busy playing a VERY small part of the MMO experience and calling in the whole. That and pretending you were the next Alexander the Great every time you beat a raid.

 

I am pretty sure everyone who thinks like you could leave this game permanently and it would still make money for Bioware and EA. Unfortunately I am sure we will be subjected to many, many more posts by self informed "pros" like yourself, who believe their fishbowl view of gaming is the only valid perspective.

 

What "massive multiplayer online" functionaly has Bioware provided more of? This game has no massive multiplayer feel.

 

The worlds are isolated areas, most of your quest hubs are the same, people are always disappearing behind barriers rarely to be seen again because you disappear behind your own shortly afterwards.

 

Please, explain what this game brings in the actual literal definition of "MMO" that surpasses others of this genre. You can cheerlead for this game all you want, you can claim it's the best MMO you've ever played and blah blah blah. But to claim it does more 'MMO stuff' than other games without providing a single example is baseless.

[Lightmaguz]

The reality, OP, is that you have no idea what an MMO is. I am sure you and your WoWbuddies have conquered every last raid you could get your hands on, but that doesn't make you an authority on MMOs...it just makes you another shortsighted consumer with an opinion.

 

SWTOR actually has provided so much more than recent MMOs have in terms of ACTUALLY being an MMO...but you guys wouldn't realize it because you have been busy playing a VERY small part of the MMO experience and calling in the whole. That and pretending you were the next Alexander the Great every time you beat a raid.

 

I am pretty sure everyone who thinks like you could leave this game permanently and it would still make money for Bioware and EA. Unfortunately I am sure we will be subjected to many, many more posts by self informed "pros" like yourself, who believe their fishbowl view of gaming is the only valid perspective.

 

I approve of this first page comment. Game is great, yes it needs a story. I'm keeping my sub. Even pvp focused mmos like WAR had a great story. It's a real damn pity wow BUTCHERED it's rich Warcraft universe which started off as a warhammer rip-off and had evolved to a nice fulfilling alternate reality by warcraft 3 is now unfortunately pretty **** in most aspects... Very little of what was great remains. But it's all valid in the spirit of entertaining the masses I guess...

 

PS - Does anyone who played Warcraft 3 remembers the awesome feeling of visiting the plaguelands on Azeroth(undercity). Seeing the same scenarios you saw in the original game, passing through the same places. It gives me a fuzzy feeling and makes me want to play Warcraft still today but this was lost in the latest expansions.

[Elear]

Skipping fact that it's just another "I quit" disguised as discussion...

 

Does MMO need story:

No, there are plenty of those without any, even in quests.

 

Does any game need story:

Aside from adventure games, where whole point is to tell story, no, you can even make game that will pass as RPG that don't have story.

 

Does game need graphics:

No, lot of good games didn't have those and did just fine.

 

Does MMORPG need clases, crafting, endgame?

As above, no, there were ones that did just fine without them.

 

Does MMO need LFG, Arenas, or pandas?

I know of only one where players can't imagine life without them, so also no.

 

 

But then

Does Elder Scrolls game need Argonians? Does FPS need shooting? Does game advertised by cute alien pigs need cute alien pigs? Does story based MMO by BioWare need story?

Absolutely.

 

If I didn't want story in my MMO, i would go play something else.

[Hotbox]

What? They're holding 1.7 million subs well over the initial free month. You call that a disaster? What do you call a success?

 

 

Also, in my opinion, yes the story is an amazing addition. I didn't even look at my xp-bar while leveling, it made leveling fun and that's something I don't think any mmorpg has managed to do before.

 

Yes, the 'grind' is now no longer a snoozefest, and the crafting is a big improvement over WOW's. The story and immersion is excellent in SWTOR.

 

It's also a guild killer as people are now discovering. Instead of chatting with your mates in Ventrilo, you are paying attention to the cinematics and what the NPC's are saying. People are off in their own little world until it comes time to raid. Not the best thing for developing freindships with guildmates. The social point system was a good idea that went horribly wrong as the gear wasn't of much use to 75% of the player base, since it was strictly only for RP purposes.

 

Space IS a letdown, as is the PVP. What's the point of a PVP server when you get nothing for killing a player open world, and in some cases banned or your toon locked for doing so? BG's whiule fun at first, are a whole lot less fun when you realize you'll have do them for weeks on end to get some decent gear out of them.

 

Ilum fast become a joke as they took any potential of a territorial element out of the game. Flashpoints are fun, but again-- when the MMO becomes about loot, people will only want to do the endgame raid.

 

SWTOR is a fun game, and I daresay a great game for many. But honestly, it's WOW with lightsabers for the most part and I'm beginning to rethink being in a subscription based MMO as a leisure activity anymore as a result.

[Runeshard]

What? They're holding 1.7 million subs well over the initial free month. You call that a disaster? What do you call a success?

 

 

Also, in my opinion, yes the story is an amazing addition. I didn't even look at my xp-bar while leveling, it made leveling fun and that's something I don't think any mmorpg has managed to do before.

Agreed. 1.7 million, not including the Australian/Asian servers, is pretty good in my opinion.

 

I know what you mean, level ups sneak up on me in this game since I'm too busy with the story and just playing the game. 9 times out of 10 I level up without even realising I was about to, this doesn't/hasn't happened to me in other MMOs.

[ZORG]

What "massive multiplayer online" functionaly has Bioware provided more of? This game has no massive multiplayer feel.

 

The worlds are isolated areas, most of your quest hubs are the same, people are always disappearing behind barriers rarely to be seen again because you disappear behind your own shortly afterwards.

 

Please, explain what this game brings in the actual literal definition of "MMO" that surpasses others of this genre. You can cheerlead for this game all you want, you can claim it's the best MMO you've ever played and blah blah blah. But to claim it does more 'MMO stuff' than other games without providing a single example is baseless.

 

Well MAYBEY just MAYBEY they didnt want KILL STEALING.

 

I remember trying to do that WARRIOR epic weapon quest in EQ our guild waited for a whole week till the Dragon spawned for the GREEN SCALES. We were prepping to start when another guild swooped in and stole the mob and I was FUBARED for another week. This doesnt happen in SWTOR did you think about that before bashing the instances?

 

I can see it now J/K 1 isfixing to attack the emperor and J/K 2 swoops in with 10 out of group buddies and kills it before you can blink. Imagine how the boards would be set on fire for that BS.

[MGriffith]

Did SWG even have an outline for your characters history and origins? How would you know what quests there was without SOME direction. I find it hard to believe after creation they just dropped you into the game with no guidance or direction. If true i would HATE that.

 

It is pretty much why open ended games tend to do worse than ones with a strict story line to follow.

You probably will like mass effect 3 a lot more than skyrim too.

 

And yes, SWG dropped you out of character creation and into the world with a 'you're on your own now and you might want to speak to that box over there if you're looking for something to do'.

[oursacrifice]

I approve of this first page comment. Game is great, yes it needs a story. I'm keeping my sub. Even pvp focused mmos like WAR had a great story. It's a real damn pity wow BUTCHERED it's rich Warcraft universe which started off as a warhammer rip-off and had evolved to a nice fulfilling alternate reality by warcraft 3 is now unfortunately pretty **** in most aspects... Very little of what was great remains. But it's all valid in the spirit of entertaining the masses I guess...

 

PS - Does anyone who played Warcraft 3 remembers the awesome feeling of visiting the plaguelands on Azeroth(undercity). Seeing the same scenarios you saw in the original game, passing through the same places. It gives me a fuzzy feeling and makes me want to play Warcraft still today but this was lost in the latest expansions.

 

Nothing was lost. The game is still a lore-rich experience, and even more-so now than before. The zones after the cataclysm were redone with a lot of story added to each one. Everything flows better from 1-60 now than ever before. The outlands are still the same but there was never really an issue with those quest areas for the most part. They're interesting enough to capture what Blizzard was doing in that expansion. Northrend is still amazing as it ever was, especially "Icecrown" itself and the incredible story arc that plays there.

 

The cataclysm zones are all well done, minus Vashj'ir which is largely considered a horrible zone to level in. But there are some people that really like being under water all the time.

 

Seems to me you've fallen prey to the typical WoW-hater forum user. Or perhaps you're incapable of understanding a story unless there's voice acting to keep you entertained. Either way, you're dismissing what's actually there for unqualified reasons.

[Runeshard]

 

The social point system was a good idea that went horribly wrong as the gear wasn't of much use to 75% of the player base, since it was strictly only for RP purposes.

 

 

True, but 1.2 will introduce medium and heavy armor which can be gotten with social levels, looking forward to that.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Runeshard

[Hotbox]

Well MAYBEY just MAYBEY they didnt want KILL STEALING.

 

I remember trying to do that WARRIOR epic weapon quest in EQ our guild waited for a whole week till the Dragon spawned for the GREEN SCALES. We were prepping to start when another guild swooped in and stole the mob and I was FUBARED for another week. This doesnt happen in SWTOR did you think about that before bashing the instances?

 

I can see it now J/K 1 isfixing to attack the emperor and J/K 2 swoops in with 10 out of group buddies and kills it before you can blink. Imagine how the boards would be set on fire for that BS.

 

You can accomplish that without going to instancing by simply opening up loot from the tables. If one silver elite drops the same item as another silver elite, there's no need to camp a boss. That's a major problem these days-- you are channelled into gaming a certain way in a storyline, like a mouse in a maze after a hunk of cheese.

 

I hate that.

[Master-Nala]

I played WOW for 6 years and have no idea who any of the NPC characters are except that I know Thrall is leader of the Orcs and some woman is leader of Undercity, that is all I know. You see in a good MMO you can make your own stories up if you are provided with the tools, WOW gave me the tools: A thriving world, great world pvp (I could attack anywhere with my guild and have a chance), it had cross server pvp, LFG tools, excellent crafting...it had IMMERSION!

 

You haven't played anything other than WoW correct?

 

WoW has by far the most brain dead crafting system I've ever seen. At least here you have to concern yourself if your minions like you or not. The sad part of your post and so many others here is that you think that boring, easy, Skinner box is the pinnacle of MMOs.

 

It's a cartoon that gives you pretty clothes for following predetermined scripts. And like every other loot grinding game, has broken PvP.

[Hotbox]

True, but 1.2 will introduce medium and heavy armor which can be gotten with social levels, looking forward to that.

 

Yes, but you only get one chance to impress a new audience in this cutthroat gaming world and SWTOR muffed that one bigtime and it was an obvious miss to anyone who was a gamer. Hard to say how many people walked away because of things like that, and moved onto other games. Time will tell if they come back.

[Hotbox]

You haven't played anything other than WoW correct?

 

WoW has by far the most brain dead crafting system I've ever seen. At least here you have to concern yourself if your minions like you or not. The sad part of your post and so many others here is that you think that boring, easy, Skinner box is the pinnacle of MMOs.

 

It's a cartoon that gives you pretty clothes for following predetermined scripts. And like every other loot grinding game, has broken PvP.

IMHO the reason PVP is a bit of a bore is twofold

 

1. No strategic territorial PVP because a percentage of the population will claim its 'griefing'

 

and

 

2. An insistence on development to put things like expertise or presence into a statistic that only has relevance to PVP thus a new player that jumps into some light PVP gets mauled by the guy that's been doing it every day.

 

 

It's no wonder lots of people hate PVP when then are their guild's best raiding DPS and then hit like a wet jellyfish in a BG or get jumped on a PVP server and get one shot.

[Runeshard]

Yes, but you only get one chance to impress a new audience in this cutthroat gaming world and SWTOR muffed that one bigtime and it was an obvious miss to anyone who was a gamer. Hard to say how many people walked away because of things like that, and moved onto other games. Time will tell if they come back.

 

Some people claim this to be the case, still it's usual for a lot of players to come back when a major update is released, in order to see if they like it better this time around. People aren't as unforgiving as you make them out to be, they are just hard to please, rightly or wrongly.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Runeshard

[Hotbox]

Some people claim this to be the case, still it's usual for a lot of players to come back when a major update is released, in order to see if they like it better this time around. People aren't as unforgiving as you make them out to be, they are just hard to please, rightly or wrongly.

 

Perhaps but its not a good business model and its certainly not fun for server's regular players when the game's population is entirely dependent upon when the next patch comes out.

 

That's a game killer and its a path toward the eventual and horrifying free to play existence.

[Mordresh]

It's also a guild killer as people are now discovering. Instead of chatting with your mates in Ventrilo, you are paying attention to the cinematics and what the NPC's are saying. People are off in their own little world until it comes time to raid. Not the best thing for developing freindships with guildmates.

 

I had the opposite experience. In WoW I was just stuck trying to level asap, it was just a hassle. I actually avoided grouping while leveling as it tended to slow me down. In this game I leveled to 50 with a guildie and get to experience two awesome stories while doing it. Though of course this is just my experience and will of course differ. I think it's a bit odd to say, "this game is holding my attention too much so I can't do other stuff." As a negative.

 

About your other points, I actually like space combat but I didn't expect it to be anything more then a fun little addition for when you get bored to start with. I do agree that world PvP is broken at the moment. But I think you have to look at the mentality Bioware had to deal with. Players who would rather trade objectives with the enemy instead of trying to have fun. I actually got a few rude whispers early in the game for PvPing in the PvP zone. Regardless they should fix Illum asap, it has such potential.