Jugy DPS....

[Cosmonauty]

I am just now creating a sith warrior, and though I have a bit of time until I must make my decision I though I would ask now. I would like to play a Jugg for RP purposes, the option to play as a tank if needed in the future, and I really hate being part of a FOTM. Is Jugg DPS even worth going for? Or should I just stick with Tanking or going Mara?

[kuey]

I am just now creating a sith warrior, and though I have a bit of time until I must make my decision I though I would ask now. I would like to play a Jugg for RP purposes, the option to play as a tank if needed in the future, and I really hate being part of a FOTM. Is Jugg DPS even worth going for? Or should I just stick with Tanking or going Mara?

 

Perfectly viable dps class. Lacking slighty in the CC area but overall sustainable damage doesn't fall far short of the other dps classes. Only problem for the dps Jugg is he doesn't have as much utility as other classes, however the ability to off tank can be very handy in groups.

[ouTJumped]

As an Ops leader, I would never bring a Jugg dps over a Mara dps. People can say what they want, but there isn't a point. Only thing I'd bring a Jugg for is tank, if we don't have an assassin or PT to do it.

[Bastus]

Perfectly viable dps class. Lacking slighty in the CC area but overall sustainable damage doesn't fall far short of the other dps classes. Only problem for the dps Jugg is he doesn't have as much utility as other classes, however the ability to off tank can be very handy in groups.

 

I agree. Jugs can DPS well in PVE situations. I mean recently I've been getting a lot more spots for DPS (although it might just be because of my gear/hp), and I can perform quite well. Can I out dps an equally geared Marauder? I'll be the first one to say, I doubt it. I've never compared, but even still I doubt it because I have a marauder as well and their skill set seems more built to killing things faster.

 

Bioware just seems to have built Jugs more for surviving, and this lack of offensive utilities (stuns, rooting abilities), and the general disadvantage of the Rage system makes Jugs lag a bit behind the rest of the classes. PVE we are decent, maybe not super fast, but we get the job done in reasonable time. PVP on the other hand, DPS jugs are kind of...meat shields, I mean we can kill people but we definitely have to work for it (which is why so many of us are so mad lol.)

 

SO

If you want to Tank, and get into parties relatively easily, and support your team in PVP, Jug mang.

 

If you have good keyboard control, and want to murder things, Marauder.

[Nemmar]

As an Ops leader, I would never bring a Jugg dps over a Mara dps. People can say what they want, but there isn't a point. Only thing I'd bring a Jugg for is tank, if we don't have an assassin or PT to do it.

 

Very shortsided.

 

Who does your off=tanking? Or do you bring 2 tanks to your raids?

 

Juggernaut does good DPS and can off-tank on DPS spec with tanking gear. Thats what we run on our guild and it works pretty well.

 

Given the flexibility and the short difference in damage output, its definitly worth it to take one along. not much point having more than one though.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Nemmar

[Lysico]

As an Ops leader, I would never bring a Jugg dps over a Mara dps. People can say what they want, but there isn't a point. Only thing I'd bring a Jugg for is tank, if we don't have an assassin or PT to do it.

 

Bingo..

 

You want dps, be a dps class. Not a watered down one in a juggy

[ouTJumped]

Very shortsided.

 

Who does your off=tanking? Or do you bring 2 tanks to your raids?

 

Juggernaut does good DPS and can off-tank on DPS spec with tanking gear. Thats what we run on our guild and it works pretty well.

 

Given the flexibility and the short difference in damage output, its definitly worth it to take one along. not much point having more than one though.

A PT does our off tanking, because they do better dps and tank better. I'm not saying I won't bring one, I am just saying if there is a choice, as long as the other choice isn't a DPS Operative, I am bringing them instead of a Jugg, gear being equal.

[EvilVictor]

I agree. Jugs can DPS well in PVE situations. I mean recently I've been getting a lot more spots for DPS (although it might just be because of my gear/hp), and I can perform quite well. Can I out dps an equally geared Marauder? I'll be the first one to say, I doubt it. I've never compared, but even still I doubt it because I have a marauder as well and their skill set seems more built to killing things faster.

 

DPS Jugg (rage) can actually beat a Marauder in burst damage without needing any special conditions or bizaar situations that rarely happen. I prefer my Marauder and it feels like more DPS overall but I definately get bigger numbers on the Jugg.

 

For the OP- play what you want and ignore anybody that tells you differently. It won't matter if class x does more dps than class y if you hate playing class x. If you want to DPS on a jugg then DPS on a jugg. It works fine and if you enjoy the style than you'll enjoy the class.

[WarSiren]

DPS Juggs are fine if you know how to play them. We may not have the Noticeable utility, but if your Ops group doesn't have a Jugg we reduce armor more than a Merc does which is a significant dps boots for the ops team. Also we bring an AoE snare that is free to costing very little rage, this is actually amazing for adds, Tanks appreciate it a lot and makes their lives easier.

 

Like I said we may not bring a noticeable Buff like Bloodthirst be we absolutely bring utility to a raid. Don't listen to the people saying other wise, as for our DPS Vengeance and Rage are VERY competitive atm, and some specs will continue to do so after 1.2 as well. Just because you have some people that are stupid who are basing their assumptions on guess work, yeah you heard me guess work, don't let it discourage you.

[Elyx]

I've seen these arguments come and go OP. I've seen people try to theorycraft the idea into the ground. The simply truth at this time is there is NO prevailing evidence that Jugg DPS is behind the other DPS classes.

 

Bio Stated that all DPS specs should be within 5% of each other. 99% of the stuff coming out on the forums is simple ignorance. there's nothing wrong with saying that a Maurader FEELS like more DPS...but until the numbers come out, it's all fluff.

 

I've seen just as many Jugg's top their raids as I've seen Mauraders. Play what you want OP...but remember, pulling max DPS from a Jugg isn't a walk in the park (similar for maurader too actually, but still the point...) many of my other classes are fairly easy compared to my Jugg. But I wouldn't enjoy playing anything else.

[Elyx]

Bingo..

 

You want dps, be a dps class. Not a watered down one in a juggy

 

Do you also believe that the earth is flat too? I can probably direct you to a site that has more information on how the earth really is flat then there is info in these forums on Jugg DPS.

 

come out of the dark ages plz. MMO companies nowadays have an amazing ability to develop classes that can do both! I know...it's amazing...

[OeSan]

Bingo..

 

You want dps, be a dps class. Not a watered down one in a juggy

And its only getting worse in 1.2 A LOT worse.

[KingFink]

And its only getting worse in 1.2 A LOT worse.

 

You're pretty funny, are you going to be telling your jokes all week?

[blackdots]

Perfectly viable dps class. Lacking slighty in the CC area but overall sustainable damage doesn't fall far short of the other dps classes. Only problem for the dps Jugg is he doesn't have as much utility as other classes, however the ability to off tank can be very handy in groups.

 

To be blunt, almost everything this guy said is wrong if we're talking PvP. In fact, DPS Jugs have loads of CC available to them; a potentially free and spammable AOE slow (one of the most powerful CC moves in the game for serious PvP atm), another ridiculously powerful AOE mez, and grip. Immortal jugs can significantly boost this range of CC. Jugs are in no sense "lacking slightly" in CC.

 

It's also a stretch to say that DPS jugs lack utility compared to other classes; obliterate, force charge, intercede, guard, taunts...exactly which DPS class has more utility than the Jug? I suppose an argument could be made for assassin (or pre-1.2 sorcs), but it's not a knock-down case.

[EvilVictor]

It's also a stretch to say that DPS jugs lack utility compared to other classes;

Blame the so-called "ops leaders" in the PvE crowd for that. With their "I expect tanks to tank" mentality and the fact that their idea of "utility" is actualy "buff for me." Since CC's only work on trash nobody cares much about them and debuffs make everybody look better than they actually were so the credit for those go to the wrong people.

 

The same has happened in every other MMO I've played where a "tank class" has the ability to be specced for dps.

 

It's kind of funny really, Juggs have 2 dps trees and one tank tree and yet people expect them to be tanks while sorcs have 2 dps trees and one heal tree and they aren't all expected to be healers. There are effectively 8 classes if you consider advanced classes to be seperate (which they are) and only two of them are "pure" dps so if Juggs should all be tanks then so should assassins and all mercs, operatives and sorcs should be healers... wouldn't that be fun?

 

Thankfully, dps Juggs have PvP where you'll be accepted and appreciated (or feared) regardless of your spec as long as you play it well.

[Somedokin]

The simply truth at this time is there is NO prevailing evidence that Jugg DPS is behind the other DPS classes.

 

I'll tell you right now that after 3 months of raiding, it's become pretty clear the Juggernauts are on the lower end of the DPS spectrum. Marauders do better DPS, hands down. I'm not saying that Juggernauts don't do respectable damage, but Marauders are, for the moment, superior in that area.

 

 

Bio Stated that all DPS specs should be within 5% of each other.

This might actually be holding true. Basing this off my experiences in killing the Infernal Lords in EV, I'm usually within 3-5% of the first person to finish (basically 1 or 2 attacks). Like I said, we can DPS just fine, but it is clear that we do less DPS overall when compared other classes.

 

From what plain observation has shown me, I think the DPS rankings look something like this:

 

1. Mercenary

2. Marauder

3. Sorcerer

4. Sniper

5. Juggernaut

6. Powertech

7. Assassin*

8. Operative*

 

*I've only been in raids with Assassins and Operatives a handful of times, and never when gear was equal.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Somedokin

[OeSan]

You're pretty funny, are you going to be telling your jokes all week?

And you are extremely helpful and not at all rude....

 

FYI:

List of Nerfs:

 

Force scream and Smash +3 sec to cd

 

aoe taunt CD nerfed (the talent that shortens it to 45 sec from 1 min is gone

 

Force choke nerf, the talent that shortens it to 47 sec from 1 min no longer does so

 

Crash, charge now has a 2 seconds stun, we already had a snare and an interrupt, this is only there to fill resolve, and once 2 Juggs jump on someone in pvp they will be immune. hutball is gonna suck for EVERYONE now.

 

Rage is losing 10% of its damage on smash, the +30% skill is now +20%.

 

Also the work that rage juggs had to go through to re itemize their terrible enhancements. Yes you can get the new re itemized gear in 1.2 IF you kept your old enhancements that you thought were useless and would have to spend 30k ea just to remove and have them take up room in your bank.... likely? no.

 

 

And to top it off the rage tree now has the +20% smash dmg so marauders can do everything we do, only better.

================================================== ====

 

None of this is worth a heal that takes, as someone else put it, 14 out of 10 rage. FOURTEEN.

[noodlehaus]

I'll tell you right now that after 3 months of raiding, it's become pretty clear the Juggernauts are on the lower end of the DPS spectrum. Marauders do better DPS, hands down. I'm not saying that Juggernauts don't do respectable damage, but Marauders are, for the moment, superior in that area.

 

 

 

This might actually be holding true. Basing this off my experiences in killing the Infernal Lords in EV, I'm usually within 3-5% of the first person to finish (basically 1 or 2 attacks). Like I said, we can DPS just fine, but it is clear that we do less DPS overall when compared other classes.

 

From what plain observation has shown me, I think the DPS rankings look something like this:

 

1. Mercenary

2. Marauder

3. Sorcerer

4. Sniper

5. Juggernaut

6. Powertech

7. Assassin*

8. Operative*

 

*I've only been in raids with Assassins and Operatives a handful of times, and never when gear was equal.

 

i see. so i guess you have magically modified your swtor client to dump logs pre 1.2 or have managed to implement your own DPS counter.

 

that's pretty hardcore for an ops leader.

[Dracosz]

As an Ops leader, I would never bring a Jugg dps over a Mara dps. People can say what they want, but there isn't a point. Only thing I'd bring a Jugg for is tank, if we don't have an assassin or PT to do it.

 

Go back to your marauder forums.

 

No, in all seriousness the sheer idiocy and absurdity behind posts like these aggravates me to no end. If it were a question of utility or lack of dps, I would understand completely. However, sims and player parses with the PTS (Yes, I have a friend that's shown me several parses from the dummies) have shown that juggernaut dps is on par, if not better than many classes in the game at the moment. It's asinine for a raid leader to reject an entire class solely on the basis that that "they think they should be tanks".

 

If you're concerned that they will compete with you on loot, then by all means continue to hoard the dps loot to yourself.

 

 

 

From what plain observation has shown me, I think the DPS rankings look something like this:

 

1. Mercenary

2. Marauder

3. Sorcerer

4. Sniper

5. Juggernaut

6. Powertech

7. Assassin*

8. Operative*

 

 

As someone who was part of the heavy progression pushes in january and shortly after the nightmare soa fix, the chart seems pretty off.

 

Fully buffed, our guild's parses roughly showed the following during sustained phases (2 5 minute tests that were averaged). (And yes, we were nerds with no life that put this kind of time into it)

 

1. Hybrid Sniper

2. Arsenal Merc

3. Annih. Marauder

4. Deception Assassin

5. Vengeance Juggernaut

 

During burst Phases (Quickest to deal 50k damage with full buffs)

1. Rage Juggernaut

2. Rage Marauder

3. Lethality Sniper

4. Arsenal Merc

5. Hybrid Sniper

 

 

(We were all full Rakata with BM weapons and in well-optimized gear for the time (we had to use the adept 22 mods instead of 25 for in some slots it wasn't as easy back then to get the adept 24 mods out of ops gloves)).

 

It's not conclusive, by any means. But raid leaders shouldn't judge based solely on a single DPS metric. For fights such as Soa, mobility and burst dps is important so you can keep ahead of mind traps.

 

What it comes down to is the fact that you should bring the player, not the class. SWTOR's DPS classes are ALL within 5% of each other (barring operatives, sadly, though the patch will help with that).You should not adhere to a "general community mindset" and disbar players because you "feel their class should tank". Juggernauts are a DPS class with tank utilities and a SINGLE dedicated tank tree. It is insulting to the community and to juggernaut players to brazenly state that you "won't take one" because you have arbitrarily decided that the class is not worthy of a spot in your raid. This isn't directed at Somedokin, but all players that would use the sad old excuse to exclude good players from your group.

 

/rantoff

Edited March 26, 2012 by Dracosz

[Hyfy]

As an Ops leader, I would never bring a Jugg dps over a Mara dps. People can say what they want, but there isn't a point. Only thing I'd bring a Jugg for is tank, if we don't have an assassin or PT to do it.

 

Your inability to adapt to a non optimal party make up says more about you then the class. Sorry but you are exactly the kind of person I DONT like running with.

[DamenX]

Go back to your marauder forums.

 

No, in all seriousness the sheer idiocy and absurdity behind posts like these aggravates me to no end. If it were a question of utility or lack of dps, I would understand completely. However, sims and player parses with the PTS (Yes, I have a friend that's shown me several parses from the dummies) have shown that juggernaut dps is on par, if not better than many classes in the game at the moment. It's asinine for a raid leader to reject an entire class solely on the basis that that "they think they should be tanks".

 

If you're concerned that they will compete with you on loot, then by all means continue to hoard the dps loot to yourself.

 

 

 

 

As someone who was part of the heavy progression pushes in january and shortly after the nightmare soa fix, the chart seems pretty off.

 

Fully buffed, our guild's parses roughly showed the following during sustained phases (2 5 minute tests that were averaged). (And yes, we were nerds with no life that put this kind of time into it)

 

1. Hybrid Sniper

2. Arsenal Merc

3. Annih. Marauder

4. Deception Assassin

5. Vengeance Juggernaut

 

During burst Phases (Quickest to deal 50k damage with full buffs)

1. Rage Juggernaut

2. Rage Marauder

3. Lethality Sniper

4. Arsenal Merc

5. Hybrid Sniper

 

 

(We were all full Rakata with BM weapons and in well-optimized gear for the time (we had to use the adept 22 mods instead of 25 for in some slots it wasn't as easy back then to get the adept 24 mods out of ops gloves)).

 

It's not conclusive, by any means. But raid leaders shouldn't judge based solely on a single DPS metric. For fights such as Soa, mobility and burst dps is important so you can keep ahead of mind traps.

 

What it comes down to is the fact that you should bring the player, not the class. SWTOR's DPS classes are ALL within 5% of each other (barring operatives, sadly, though the patch will help with that).You should not adhere to a "general community mindset" and disbar players because you "feel their class should tank". Juggernauts are a DPS class with tank utilities and a SINGLE dedicated tank tree. It is insulting to the community and to juggernaut players to brazenly state that you "won't take one" because you have arbitrarily decided that the class is not worthy of a spot in your raid. This isn't directed at Somedokin, but all players that would use the sad old excuse to exclude good players from your group.

 

/rantoff

 

Great post and ty for the info

[Goretzu]

DPS Jugg (rage) can actually beat a Marauder in burst damage without needing any special conditions or bizaar situations that rarely happen. I prefer my Marauder and it feels like more DPS overall but I definately get bigger numbers on the Jugg.

 

They can now.

 

In 1.2 they cannot.

[thorizdin]

A PT does our off tanking, because they do better dps and tank better.

 

Sorry, but you're demonstrating your ignorance here. PT does NOT tank "better" in any sense of the word and the DPS logging on PTS is showing that the damage difference is imaginary.

[Elyx]

 

...Good stuff as always...

 

/rantoff

 

Thanks for bringing some balanced logic to the thread Drac. Something your team is good at and I'm glad your there testing stuff

 

What's sad is that even though were all around 5% of each other, people will still choose to be ignorant about things.

 

I know that many people cry for DPS meters. Unfortunately, even in games with DPS meters I always found people that simply denied the truth and chose to live with ignorance.

 

On topic tho, how are the tests going with the PTR? you mentioned you know someone running a few...any solid data yet? any news of differences possibly resulting from the changes? My jugg is only 15 atm on PTR, so dont really have any personal info to provide.