SWTOR Vs WoW: Blizzard gets it

[Djhots]

Bioware obviously knows that they are competing with WoW now, not WoW at launch.

 

QFT. Finally!

[DarkCarnage]

Frankly I do get mildly upset that the vast majority of the population don't seem to understand what are quite simple concepts. I do get upset that objectivity seems to escape most people, that their "acadmic" opinions are dirtied by bias, and that they seem perfectly willing to allow irrational bias to dictate their thoughts and opinions.

 

I get upset because people START with an affirmation, and then build an argument around it. "Star Wars is good. How can I prove Star Wars is good?" What people should be doing is going, "Star Wars has..... therefore Star Wars is good/bad."

 

And if someone else is doing something better than Star Wars, like WoW does Dungeon Finding better than Star Wars, why should the fact that I mention WoW ruin the point? Yeah, WoW lost some subs and it's clearly in decline. Yeah, it doesn't do everything perfectly. Yeah, it's aged. Yeah, it's had 10 years of development. It STILL does Dungeon Finding better than Star Wars ;D

 

maybe BW did want a finder tool, and the one tehy wanted not worked as need in it alpha build so tehy gave out a more basic version till they got whe tool remade,tested and to their liking ?

[DarthTHC]

What the he11 is a Pokemon..?

 

Collectible vanity pets that can fight each other. In WoW.

 

Kung-Fu Panda refers to the combination of the Pandaren race and the Monk class.

 

All features of the next expansion pack.

[Alkiii]

World of Warcraft didn't have a $200 million budget and several hundred (300+) developers working on it, sadly.

 

Star Wars The Old Republic did. Consider that for a second. Consider the amount of work you do for whatever salary you earn, then scale that up to $200 million, then look at the game, and then honestly answer if you think those developers did $200 million worth of work.

 

By that logic, Waterworld should have been 1,000,000 times more profitable than any movie ever created. Also, why are you so concerned with the money aspect of video game production? Are you an investor? If not, then what's the point?

 

I think the money has been well spent on SWTOR. They have updated rather quickly. Launch was very smooth. They are adding new content quite quickly. Continue to listen to their player base and add features that we "do" want (adjustable UI anyone?). The game keeps expanding and I'm happy.

 

Why am I happy? Because video games are a form of entertainment for me. If they stop being entertaining, I move on. Something that many of you should do.

[Dawgtide]

It's not just you. The problem is that MMOs in the modern era have rendered the concept of community obsolete. Their very structure is such that people have little incentive to interact in any meaningful manner. There's simply no interdependency between players, and even group content can either be soloed at a later time or skipped altogether with little repercussions.

 

In TOR, it's a bit worse. The interaction with the story itself (The biggest drawing point that Bioware touts) is a singular experience to the point that other players all but vanish when you are engaged in dialog. This even further pushes people apart and creates the "single-player" experience.

 

It's not easily fixed without causing hurt to the bottom line.

 

What about families or husbands and wives or girlfriends and boyfriends? They can play together pretty well in this game. And that should help the bottom line shouldn't it?

[DarthTHC]

maybe BW did want a finder tool, and the one tehy wanted not worked as need in it alpha build so tehy gave out a more basic version till they got whe tool remade,tested and to their liking ?

 

I was in game test on an off for several months before release. The abortion that is the current LFG "tool" is the only thing I ever saw.

[indelible]

Since when does any video game become the "standard" for all gaming?

 

Sorry, but Zelda was Zelda and Metroid was Metroid. They were different, they were fun and I didn't need to compare them to each other. Why? Because Mike Tyson's Punch Out was better than both of them and all 3 of them delivered in the entertainment department for me. Did they need to have "standard" comparisons to be successful? No. They're video games and they are created for entertainment value. If you're so hung up on the WoW system and are mad about the SWTOR system, why in the hell are you still here?

 

In my head, this is what you sound like:

 

"I'm so mad that Punch Out doesn't have the Rupy system. I am so mad that Punch Out doesn't have items I can purchase with my hard earned money. TO THE FORUMS!"

 

AGAIN with the total and utter failure to actually do any basic THINKING or COMPREHENSION.

 

WE (as in the royal we) ARE NOT saying that WoW is the standard. We are saying that there ARE standards, that WoW happens to reflect some of them (go figure...), and that Bioware failed to do so.

 

Zelda is Zelda, but it flagrantly copied mechanics from games that came before it, and games that came after each Zelda game did so to Zelda as well. Metroid... well... I shouldn't even have to mention how Metroid (especially the recent ones) took on a load of extra-metroid mechanics from other franchises ;D

 

There are genre standards in gaming, just like every car has wheels, just like every fridge has a door, etc etc.

[Dawgtide]

Developers probably got paid peanuts compared to the actors...

 

Actually wasn't it just the license for Star Wars that was about half the budget? In other words didn't Lucas get rich?

[Frostvein]

By that logic, Waterworld should have been 1,000,000 times more profitable than any movie ever created.

 

No, that isn't his logic. His logic is that a game that cost 200 million should work better or at least as well as a game costing half that.

[Esproc]

I see you're arguing with the point about standards in MMOs, conviniently skirting over the fact that SWTOR adhere to many of these standards. The combat is a direct rip of the combat system popularised by EverQuest, a combat system that has become a standard for MMORPGs (even the new action MMOs coming out, like GW2 and Tera, use a variant of the same combat system).

 

The crafting system, whilst developed further, is very much like every other generic crafting system in MMOs. Instancing, raid dungeons, encounter design, the holy trinity, player housing, talent trees, itemisation, etc, etc so on and so forth.

 

All of these areas adhere to the basic standards of MMORPGs, standards that have been in place for over a decade.

 

This is fine, I assume, or do you have a problem with all of that as well?

 

Really? Where is it? D;

 

 

 

Get ready for Truth, as you will probably refute, cry, whine, and avoid, but...

 

You so finely avoid the real truth, can you handle this? I don't know.

 

They are ALL a ripoff of Gary Gygax and Dungeons and Dragons!!!! Rolling dice and Playing with other people in a group to do Dungeons, sort of like an instance, you know, Content. These people, a real shocker here for you, were a COMMUNITY that worked together to play, talk, and even go to functions/meetings/conventions.

 

All of the MMOs follow this style and even do conventions, have meetings, and some even try to keep their communities together and not ruin them with tool/doodads/X-server functions that ruin the neighborhood.

 

So please, if you are going to judge by any and all others, get it right.

[indelible]

Actually wasn't it just the license for Star Wars that was about half the budget? In other words didn't Lucas get rich?

 

No. The license is ongoing. Lucas Arts get 30% of sub fees and box sales, I believe. And I also believe that Bioware owned some of the rights to the Knights of the Old Republic games.

[BlackZoback]

AGAIN with the total and utter failure to actually do any basic THINKING or COMPREHENSION.

 

WE (as in the royal we) ARE NOT saying that WoW is the standard. We are saying that there ARE standards, that WoW happens to reflect some of them (go figure...), and that Bioware failed to do so.

 

Zelda is Zelda, but it flagrantly copied mechanics from games that came before it, and games that came after each Zelda game did so to Zelda as well. Metroid... well... I shouldn't even have to mention how Metroid (especially the recent ones) took on a load of extra-metroid mechanics from other franchises ;D

 

There are genre standards in gaming, just like every car has wheels, just like every fridge has a door, etc etc.

 

Saying they have fail to deliver "standards" then not even mentioning these "standards" really helps your case. Considering they have met the "standards" in my eyes like stable servers, PvP outlets, Raid content, solo content, small group content, crafting and most importantly a solid base to build off of... you can see how its hard to believe you.

Edited March 26, 2012 by BlackZoback

[Alkiii]

No, that isn't his logic. His logic is that a game that cost 200 million should work better or at least as well as a game costing half that.

 

And in my opinion, it does and it is better ... otherwise I'd be playing WoW.

[indelible]

Get ready for Truth, as you will probably refute, cry, whine, and avoid, but...

 

You so finely avoid the real truth, can you handle this? I don't know.

 

They are ALL a ripoff of Gary Gygax and Dungeons and Dragons!!!! Rolling dice and Playing with other people in a group to do Dungeons, sort of like an instance, you know, Content. These people, a real shocker here for you, were a COMMUNITY that worked together to play, talk, and even go to functions/meetings/conventions.

 

All of the MMOs follow this style and even do conventions, have meetings, and some even try to keep their communities together and not ruin them with tool/doodads/X-server functions that ruin the neighborhood.

 

So please, if you are going to judge by any and all others, get it right.

 

You're being specious now Well done.

 

I KNOW a lot of games are based on Dungeons and Dragons. That doesn't even vaguely undermine my point, in fact going so far to demonstrate it in working. We'll skip over the fact that SOME games use systems totally removed from DnD though, just so you feel like your post accomplished something.

[Jonkero]

SWTOR has better graphics, thats it.........

[Bluerodian]

What about families or husbands and wives or girlfriends and boyfriends? They can play together pretty well in this game. And that should help the bottom line shouldn't it?

 

It can, but reaching out beyond that small core of people generally doesn't happen. Most players are likely singular players. None of their friends or relatives play (At least that has been my experience).

 

It seems to me, and this is just my observations so your mileage may vary, what we have in TOR isn't a community. It's a mob of individuals looking out for their own ends and no one else's. Occasionally they'll group in to stand-offish cliques creating this mini quasi-communities, but the result is still the same.

 

An unfocused mob of individuals.

[Alkiii]

AGAIN with the total and utter failure to actually do any basic THINKING or COMPREHENSION.

 

WE (as in the royal we) ARE NOT saying that WoW is the standard. We are saying that there ARE standards, that WoW happens to reflect some of them (go figure...), and that Bioware failed to do so.

 

Zelda is Zelda, but it flagrantly copied mechanics from games that came before it, and games that came after each Zelda game did so to Zelda as well. Metroid... well... I shouldn't even have to mention how Metroid (especially the recent ones) took on a load of extra-metroid mechanics from other franchises ;D

 

There are genre standards in gaming, just like every car has wheels, just like every fridge has a door, etc etc.

 

I'm really glad that Zaxxon copied Joust so much ... or Joust would have been a failed arcade game. /sigh

 

Your point is null and void. Why? Because at some point you have to understand that you're comparing apples to oranges and that every piece of senseless banter you spew forth means absolutely nothing to those that are entertained by the product you are not entertained by.

 

I absolutely love this game for what it did not incorporate from other games. I absolutely love SWTOR more than any game out there, regardless of the "standards" you speak of. That's why I don't need anyone to tell me what entertains me. I learn that myself. However, I don't go around informing the masses how much I hate a certain video games because it didn't have something I wanted in it. You kids today don't sound like gamers anymore ... you sound like selfish, self-entitled brats that think that the only way any game can succeed is if it has everything you want, exactly the way you want it.

 

Sorry, but this isn't Burger King ... you can't have it your way, right away.

[MWEH]

Comparisons aside, there are a few things that are undeniable.

 

1. Nothing will kill WoW except WoW. Every MMO that has launched after has supposedly heralded the end of the world... of warcraft. They will continue on until WoW 2 comes out or whatever their next big thing is. Blizzard just knows how to cater to a wider swath of players - pvp to weekend warriors.

 

2. MMO's are very hard to bring down.. they can be fairly profitable with rather low subscription rates. Look how many have gone FTP and are still running.. I mean my god man, you can still play Everquest, which is equivalent to a great, great ancestor in gaming terms. SWG would still be running if not for the licensing issues.

 

3. The only thing which concerns me with the longevity of this game is if they continue down the 'single player' story route. Every expansion and quest requires full voice acting? While it's new and kind of a cool cinematic experience, I fear that our other content suffers as a result. If we are honest, only a small percentage of people probably listen to the dialogue (even smaller after the first time). I want a little more sand in my themepark.

[Gerandar]

Agree and WoW is handing out free 80's like candy. That tells me the big dog is scared of the new big kid on the block.

 

or they dont want people to have to go through 89 levels of useless content when kunf-fu-panda comes out.

[Frostvein]

And in my opinion, it does and it is better ... otherwise I'd be playing WoW.

 

 

Which is fair, but I feel as if you aren't being objective about it.

 

I played WoW for years. I only really quit because I think Blizzard threw in the towel development wise.

 

But from a purely analytical point of view and excluding the content aspect, Blizzard has far more features. You may hate some, and sure, you may love some to death. The fact remains that there are alot of features that Bioware didn't include - which given the amount of the money, time, and examples they had is kind of sad.

[indelible]

I'm really glad that Zaxxon copied Joust so much ... or Joust would have been a failed arcade game. /sigh

 

Your point is null and void. Why? Because at some point you have to understand that you're comparing apples to oranges and that every piece of senseless banter you spew forth means absolutely nothing to those that are entertained by the product you are not entertained by.

 

I absolutely love this game for what it did not incorporate from other games. I absolutely love SWTOR more than any game out there, regardless of the "standards" you speak of. That's why I don't need anyone to tell me what entertains me. I learn that myself. However, I don't go around informing the masses how much I hate a certain video games because it didn't have something I wanted in it. You kids today don't sound like gamers anymore ... you sound like selfish, self-entitled brats that think that the only way any game can succeed is if it has everything you want, exactly the way you want it.

 

Sorry, but this isn't Burger King ... you can't have it your way, right away.

 

I do hope you appreciate the irony of your post You seem like the type who would. I also hope you didn't sit there and type it out with a straight face because that would be unreasonable.

 

Aside from that, there's not much more to say. I'm talking about Bioware, you're talking about you. I'm talking about standards within a genre of gaming that is largely uniform across the board (aside from a handful of niche games), you're talking about fruit. I'm talking about it in the academic sense, you're playing beach ball with a fat man.

 

There's not much more to say, as I said To you, at least.

[Alkiii]

Comparisons aside, there are a few things that are undeniable.

 

1. Nothing will kill WoW except WoW. Every MMO that has launched after has supposedly heralded the end of the world... of warcraft. They will continue on until WoW 2 comes out or whatever their next big thing is. Blizzard just knows how to cater to a wider swath of players - pvp to weekend warriors.

 

2. MMO's are very hard to bring down.. they can be fairly profitable with rather low subscription rates. Look how many have gone FTP and are still running.. I mean my god man, you can still play Everquest, which is equivalent to a great, great ancestor in gaming terms. SWG would still be running if not for the licensing issues.

 

3. The only thing which concerns me with the longevity of this game is if they continue down the 'single player' story route. Every expansion and quest requires full voice acting? While it's new and kind of a cool cinematic experience, I fear that our other content suffers as a result. If we are honest, only a small percentage of people probably listen to the dialogue (even smaller after the first time). I want a little more sand in my themepark.

 

I will agree with you in that I too, would like a little more sand in my themepark. However, I'm not going to come to these forums and tell the world what an awful game this is and I certainly am not going to compare it to anything else out there. It's just a moot point to do so.

[Alkiii]

Which is fair, but I feel as if you aren't being objective about it.

 

I played WoW for years. I only really quit because I think Blizzard threw in the towel development wise.

 

But from a purely analytical point of view and excluding the content aspect, Blizzard has far more features. You may hate some, and sure, you may love some to death. The fact remains that there are alot of features that Bioware didn't include - which given the amount of the money, time, and examples they had is kind of sad.

 

At 68 years old, I can assure you that being objective about my entertainment value is a very important factor in my decision making process when it comes to gaming. If I wanted WoW features to be the norm for all games, then why bother playing anything else other than WoW?

 

Bioware doesn't have to include a damn thing in their video games from other games if they don't want to. Contrary to popular belief, Bioware isn't owned by Blizzard and they're quite capable of putting what they want into their video games. Money has absolutely nothing to do with it. Neither does time. Why? Because if the product is successful and exceeds projection forecasts, then it's a success. Both from a financial investment standpoint and an entertainment standpoint.

 

I think they've delivered and I'm pleased.

[GalacticKegger]

World of Warcraft didn't have a $200 million budget and several hundred (300+) developers working on it, sadly.

 

Star Wars The Old Republic did. Consider that for a second. Consider the amount of work you do for whatever salary you earn, then scale that up to $200 million, then look at the game, and then honestly answer if you think those developers did $200 million worth of work.

Ya know, if one's retirement was based purely on how fast the money EA/BW/LA invested in developing Star Wars The Old Republic turned a profit ... then it might be important. But it isn't. Whatever monies went into making the game makes no difference to me personally because I'm getting my 50¢ a day's worth of video gaming fun with friends. If people put as much effort into changing the world as they do ragging on a video game in a forum . . . oh nvm. Too much to ask.

[Esproc]

You're being specious now Well done.

 

I KNOW a lot of games are based on Dungeons and Dragons. That doesn't even vaguely undermine my point, in fact going so far to demonstrate it in working. We'll skip over the fact that SOME games use systems totally removed from DnD though, just so you feel like your post accomplished something.

 

Just curious, if not by Gary Gygax's starting of DnD, then what are these "Other" games using as a standard? Chutes and Ladders, Chess, Solitaire, Minesweeper?

 

I just pointed out truth of origin that all mechanics derive from. And to say that it is a moot point, that SWTOR must be more than, because I say these "Other" games have set such standards is truly false. SWTOR does not need to follow the path that so many others are following, and not doing so well, to be viable.

 

You claim that there are "Other" games using totally removed systems from DnD, but no mention of said games. Do they still use any form of random (dice) numbers in their generation of context? That still puts down a base of which they originated from.

 

Just because there has been advancements in the "game" doesn't mean they must follow an exact route/rut, but can, and should have differences, whether in game play, dynamics, graphics, VO, allowance of particular tools/addons/meters/crutches/"I WIN!" Buttons/what ever.

 

They are most all too similar, they do not need to be exacting copies "BECAUSE so and so has it".

Edited March 26, 2012 by Esproc