When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[Mathelia]

this is about the op thinking he is so godly and making the devs team nerf him( the class and spec) . fighting ****** geared and noskilled people doesn't make you good . so you have killed 2-3 at once. there might be some factors like

 

1 . you got battlemaster gear

2 . the people you are fighting have ****** gear

3 . they have no clue and skill pvp wise

etc.

 

and your video showed them all .

[Redmarx]

I think an 80% reduction would be better. Also if we are getting rid of force shroud I would oust deflection as well, the cool down is two minutes so either make it 5 or just trash it. Since we are on the subject I think whiter should not yield a stack or harnessed darkness and with 3 stacks from your shock instead of a heal it should cause a self inflicting DoT on the caster.

 

Whaddya think?

 

 

Too much.

 

Although given the state of the forums and the nerfs in 1.2, perhaps you will have it your way.

[Eaglemouse]

Go to my videos.

 

 

27/0/14

31/0/10

 

Those specs with DPS gear.

 

crap that's my spec! Well it was until I found that going 0/31/10 full on dps spec with tank gear and a shield gen with tanks stance to be much more effective giving you the much more needed dps/crit but only losing dark ward for shield chance 15% (I think).

 

The quoted spec is really only effective against other tanks (long fight however) and dps classes. With the build I use I am still effective against these (meru's will kill you) but with higher damage can go for a respectable healer as well and is much better for wz's IMO. That and missile spam still will not kill you like a full dps build would die from most of the time.

 

All spec's for sin are effective on soft targets so long as they can't get away.

 

BW has forever argued that dps for all dps classes should be about the same (within 10%) or just done in different ways. I have always argued that if a class can also then have good defense the pure dps should have more damage but I have been ignore as that's not how it works in this game.

 

Some classes can have much greater defense and yet still dps within 20% but mitigation is almost double that of a normal dps.

 

That said these are the only two builds that are effective against BH/commando (mostly what you face in wz's).

 

So what is the problem here?

[RockysRevenge]

Assassins are really good, but don't you think Marauder/Vanguard is still above them for rated?

 

This. I feel very silly now for choosing Commando and Guardian. Guardian changes are a slight buff, but even with a nerf, sents/marauders are still going to be warzone champions.

 

It's ok though, I'll just stick to my MASSIVELY OP shadow. Because weak AoE, 2 sec stuns, and mediocre sustained single target damage = the be-all, end-all of all classes for all time.

[Ravenolf]

Go to my videos.

 

 

27/0/14

31/0/10

 

Those specs with DPS gear.

 

Where are your videos?

 

Edit: Derp, in your signature, sorry.

[Redmarx]

This. I feel very silly now for choosing Commando and Guardian. Guardian changes are a slight buff, but even with a nerf, sents/marauders are still going to be warzone champions.

 

It's ok though, I'll just stick to my MASSIVELY OP shadow. Because weak AoE, 2 sec stuns, and mediocre sustained single target damage = the be-all, end-all of all classes for all time.

 

Nothing mediocre about this:

 

 

Better damage, mobility, defenses and utility than operatives - check.

[Mathelia]

Nothing mediocre about this:

 

 

Better damage, mobility, defenses and utility than operatives - check.

 

stop comparing assassins to operatives... it's just a dumb arguement

[Alric_Annondu]

So much whining. I'm glad I'm an assassin.

[Astarica]

this is about the op thinking he is so godly and making the devs team nerf him( the class and spec) . fighting ****** geared and noskilled people doesn't make you good . so you have killed 2-3 at once. there might be some factors like

 

1 . you got battlemaster gear

2 . the people you are fighting have ****** gear

3 . they have no clue and skill pvp wise

etc.

 

and your video showed them all .

 

Darkness is overpowered but not because you can smash hopelessly outclassed/bad players by yourself. Pretty much anybody can do that. On my alt I'm usually assigned the '2 gimp guys defending a turret' role in Alderaan and the team gimp I'm on has never lost a turret to any single character no matter who they are. In fact it's hurting the team very badly that they keep on send their best player to try to take out 2 gimps, only to find out that 2 gimps (in gear, not skill) still beat 1 top player rather comfortably.

 

Darkness is actually most deadly when they're dying a lot. Due to their far superior mitigation compared to every comparable DPS class, if a Darkness Assassin is constantly getting mauled this means 2 other DPS is getting away with murder untouched. This is the stuff that doesn't show up in leaderboards but will absolutely crush the opposing team if they fall for it. In fact, this class is really more powerful dead than alive because each time you died means two other guys on your team got away with their death. Now this is true with all tanks, except normally people have no reason to kill other tanks.

[Rafaedrin]

I have played Shadow Tank since day 1, with the goal of using the 31/0/10 build. I like tanking. Now that I pvp heavily, I have maintained that mentality. I like tanking in PvP even more than PvE. I have a smattering of Battle Master tank spec gear, with the full Champion gear tank set, as well as a full Champion DPS set.

 

My 2 cents:

 

Even in the full DPS set, my burst capability is nowhere near what pure DPS classes can generate. Yes, I can occasionally obtain some moderate flashy numbers when ALL my cooldowns are in available, but, short of those who recently hit 50, I'm not burning anyone down the way DPS specs can.

 

In my full tank set, my DPS is drastically lower, and my survivability is drastically higher. Shocking how that trade off works.

 

I think that there are a couple factors leading to this particular debate.

 

First. People are prone to deal in extremes, and ignoring the middle ground. Translated to SWTOR, one might be all about maximizing damage. Or, all about healing. Or, all about mitigation. What those who are using out of spec gear(regardless of class, shadows and assassins aren't unique in this) are doing is taking others outside the norm. They are masters of the middle ground. Players anticipate responding to class A with skill rotation B resulting in fight scenario C. The problem is that this formula can become static in peoples minds, where all these variable are just that(or should be), variable and always changing.

 

After so many fights its difficult not to have a conclusion already drawn at the start of a fight. Innovation on the part of a few has thrown people outside their comfort zone, and they are left thinking, "Wait, that wasn't supposed to go that way."

 

Second. Society has become accustomed to immediate gratification. Again, relating this to SWTOR, MMO battles tend to be quick and furious. Boom, boom, boom and the fight should be over and the winner and loser quickly defined. Many of the posts in this thread are even indicative of this trend. They are little more than outbursts providing the emotional release a frustrated person wanted and contain little to no actual thought.

 

A fight with someone using this build is anything but quick and the outcome will never be immediate. With middle of the road mitagation and middle of the road damage, their strength lies in drawing things out. Its not going to be over fast, and its going to require more strategy and less automated response on the part of their opponent. Bottom line, it will require a little more thinking; which is a requirement many players are not willing to meet.

 

As for the damage/protection/healing shown at the end of a match. What a misleading statistic to base any argument on. All that information is relative to the individual player, the scenarios the warzone presented, and whether they were able to capitalize on their strengths, or had their weaknesses exploited.

 

Sure, I can spam mediocre AOEs on groups all match, and throw my guard/taunt around when Im not being attacked, and my little 450ish heal is popping every once in a while I draw out any combat I'm in. That doesnt make me OP, it makes me a commendation whore. And my team should hate me for it.

 

The AOE spam was unfocused and with any competent healer amounts to little more than an annoyance. My protection was wasted because I had to avoid confrontation to keep from depleting my hit point pool too quickly and I really didnt care who I put it on. And my heals were nowhere near frequent or large enough to have kept me alive had I actually gone after objectives. But at the end of the match..... goddamn if my numbers didnt look good.

[AMKSED]

this is about the op thinking he is so godly and making the devs team nerf him( the class and spec) . fighting ****** geared and noskilled people doesn't make you good . so you have killed 2-3 at once. there might be some factors like

 

1 . you got battlemaster gear

2 . the people you are fighting have ****** gear

3 . they have no clue and skill pvp wise

etc.

 

and your video showed them all .

 

I'm actually only half Battlemaster in this video.

[Pistols]

Looking for a Jedi Master, PST.

[AMKSED]

Looking for a Jedi Master, PST.

 

I'll teach the boooooy.

[vsalcedo]

And when can we expect the other trees to be balanced to be better for group play.

 

 

There's a reason why 90% of the people playing Assassin/Shadow are now playing hybrid.

 

As mentioned before I think all Shadow/Assassin trees should have their own form of Harnessed Shadows.

 

 

Kinetic - Damage debuff to target attacked with Tele Throw : 5/10/15% /per stack. -20% Force/Melee Damage when in Combat Technique. Increase the heal in Combat Technique by 200 to help the actual tanks who were wanting to tank keep themselves up due to the loss of the heal from HS.

 

Infiltration - Increases Tele Throw damage by : 6/12/18% /per stack and reduced Force cost by 20/40/60%. +30% armor while in Shadow Technique. Switch the Kinetic Field (30% AoE Dmg Reducton) down to the tier 1 and replace Harnessed Shadows there for Infiltration. They no longer need the extra armor since Shadow technique automatically has the armor increase.

 

Balance - Each tick of Telekinetic Throw Heals the player by 2/3/4% max health . +20m range on Telekinetic Throw/Project while in Force Technique. Toss out Mind Ward and make that an innate ability for people in Force Technique and replace that tier with the Harnessed Shadows for Balance.

 

No tanks are allowed to kill anyone rawr ***. Whatever happened to class equality?

[AMKSED]

No tanks are allowed to kill anyone rawr ***. Whatever happened to class equality?

 

Idk, you tell me.

[galrogyab]

I tink lavel 10 agetn is op luk how mutch dmg tehy do

 

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u315/galrogyab/AGETNSOOPP.jpg

 

if dey dis gud at 10 den dey muts b unbetabl at 50, we shudnt evn b woried abut asasins!

[Redmarx]

stop comparing assassins to operatives... it's just a dumb arguement

 

Because comparing the 2 classes that are characterised as both stealth and melee performing the same role in PVP is... dumb?

 

Should we be comparing ranged healer sorcs to melee dps assassins?

 

Or should we just not engage in any comparisons at all and just not think about anything?

[dotred]

I play a 31/0/10 tank since I'm really objective oriented in PVP (i.e huttball runner, guarding the point and harassing healers with interrupts and knock backs). The class is a little over tuned, I'll admit. I find a big problem lies with a lot of their utility and crazy survivability spam - I've had a lot of instances where I find myself pissing about when I get a ton of focus on me for no reason with my team consisting of other squishy dps around me (say 5-6 people). And I'm there, just popping my defensive CDs (relics/adrenals/force shroud/deflection). And just for ***** and giggles, throw up your overcharge saber for a 5% heal along with 3 charges in harnessed darkness and you get what, another 12% heal which is uninterpretable if you've got force shroud on unless someone's smart enough to interrupt that.

 

And the best part is, you got an amazing get away-for-free card using force cloak/black out/force speed, coupled in with the points put into FS to remove movement debuffs.

 

IMHO, they can be killed but are a pain in the *** to do so, let alone in the right moments, are kinda ridiculous.

 

There have also been times where I'm doing dailies on ilum, and I'll be mid-fight with some mobs and I'll get jumped, and I can still subdue the person jumping me while still having ****** agro on the mobs with relative ease - and I'm talking champ/bm geared smug's and whatnot. Utility is ridiculous.

Edited March 29, 2012 by dotred

[Astarica]

I play a 31/0/10 tank since I'm really objective oriented in PVP (i.e huttball runner, guarding the point and harassing healers with interrupts and knock backs). The class is a little over tuned, I'll admit. I find a big problem lies with a lot of their utility and crazy survivability spam - I've had a lot of instances where I find myself pissing about when I get a ton of focus on me for no reason with my team consisting of other squishy dps around me (say 5-6 people). And I'm there, just popping my defensive CDs (relics/adrenals/force shroud/deflection). And just for ***** and giggles, throw up your overcharge saber for a 5% heal along with 3 charges in harnessed darkness and you get what, another 12% heal which is uninterpretable if you've got force shroud on unless someone's smart enough to interrupt that.

 

And the best part is, you got an amazing get away-for-free card using force cloak/black out/force speed, coupled in with the points put into FS to remove movement debuffs.

 

IMHO, they can be killed but are a pain in the *** to do so, let alone in the right moments, are kinda ridiculous.

 

That's actually a more accurate explanation of why Darkness is overpowered. There is not one particular thing you do that is flat out invinicible. But you're just very good, arguably competitive for top in many categories, that if you play long enough your advantage will eventually grind down the enemy (assuming they're not the same class). Force Shroud might not win you any particular battle, but it will win you a lot of battles over time. Even something modest like Overcharge Saber heal is still better than what most DPS class has access to in terms of self healing. It might not win you a fight, but would you rather go into a fight without Overcharge Saber? Imagine if there's some kind of free agency for auctioning off class abilities. Even a modest one like Overcharge Saber is likely to have a lot of interested bidders from DPS classes with weak CDs. For example it's flat out better than Kolto Vents, so all BH would certainly want to trade their Kolto Vents for our Overcharge Saber.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Astarica

[Neamhan]

Because comparing the 2 classes that are characterised as both stealth and melee performing the same role in PVP is... dumb?

 

No, but what's dumb is clinging to the incorrect assumption that because both ACs have stealth that it somehow means they perform the same role and can be compared directly. Assassins have a tank spec, while Operatives do not. Operatives have a heal spec, while Assassins do not. Their roles are fundamentally different. Each AC has carryover abilities that apply to all three of their respective specs that are absolutely necessary for them to fulfill their roles as tanks/healers. Most of the abilities you constantly cry about are tank specific and vital to their role as tanks.

 

You might as well also ask for nerfs to Powertechs as well, since clearly Operatives and Powertechs are comparable in their roles as dudes with guns and 30m range basic attacks and Powertechs are totally harder to kill! It's an inane argument.

[heikaze]

When a class has a survivability as a tank, that can put up 300k, 100k protection, 100k healing, is op no matter how you look at it.

[yeux]

you keep repeating that as if that is the average number that every 'sin does in every single match.

 

that's a stars align type of match and you know it. we both know you're exaggerating the hell out of that healing number too.

[heikaze]

you keep repeating that as if that is the average number that every 'sin does in every single match.

 

that's a stars align type of match and you know it. we both know you're exaggerating the hell out of that healing number too.

 

I'm really not.

[HuorEarfalas]

I'm really not.

 

100k healing is in no way possible. You're such a fake.

 

Pics or it didn't happen.

Edited March 29, 2012 by HuorEarfalas

[KonohaFlash]

100k healing is in no way possible. You're such a fake.

 

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

http://szapas.imgur.com/all/ 12th image.