Backstab nerf.... the upcoming death of DD Operatives/Scoundrels

[Escarrabutxaques]

 

One thing's for certain - the Ops/Scundies I fear, sure don't need their specs reverted to pre-nerf, nor do they need any gap-closer. It's their playstyle that scares me the most.

 

Judging by the amount of ridiculous whines and exaggerations I've been monitoring in these forums for the past months, I don't trust any of the whiney posters - whichever class they use - and I have serious doubts if they really understand their own class, or how PvP works in SWTOR.

 

...

 

That being said;

 

The only thing I can vouch for the Ops/Scundies, is that they need some sort of talent to allow faster and definate combat closure, so they can re-enter stealth within about 5 seconds of last used hostile/combat action. They don't need a gap closer or revert back to old damaging capacity.

 

5 seconds is just enough time for a stun to last, so with this made possible, combined with the use of a stun/sleep power the Ops/Scundy has about 2~3 chances to re-enter stealth mode without using the 3minute forced stealth. It adds more consideration to the tactical value of the use of stuns/sleeps, as well as opens up chances for the Ops/Scundy to manage the combat better, giving extra chances to use high-damage attacks from stealth.

 

 

This, should be the main difference between an Assasin/Shadow and Ops/Scoundy, whereas the tactical use of stealth is much limited to the first initial advantage for Assasin/Shadows, Ops/Scundies should be given an option to utilize that advantage even during combat, so they can find/implement their own unique playstyles to manage the fight to their own terms, so they can find chances to re-stealth.

 

 

What operatives/scoundrels need is a mechanic/abilities that would make that AC unique and not just a castrated version of assassin. You comparison between operatives and WoW rogues is wrong. Assassin is a lot more similar to the WoW rogue than an operative. The entire mechanic of the concealment tree is based on burst from stealth (which is constantly being nerfed), what "tactical" advantages are you talking about? That scenario with stuns/restealth (lol, sap-cheapshot-restealth?) is only viable in 1v1. And believe me, in 1v1 the operatives don't really need anything changed, they are able to decimate about any other AC in the game, only skilled merc/trooper healer and skilled sins/shadows are able to put up a fight. But, is there that many 1v1 situations in this game? 99% of the pvp in this game are warzones. In decent, organized team there won't be much chances to engage someone in 1v1 (if there will be any at all).

 

PvP as an operative in a teamfight:

you open on someone, you get knocked back with snare/root effect or pulled/grappled by a tank, then the dots and cc come and you pretty much screwed, you have two options: respawn or blow 2 out of 3 defensive cds you have to try and reopen again on someone, (which could be problematic with new 7.5 cd on HS).

Don't get me wrong, operative can easily decimate people and create a lot of chaos in really bad unorganized teams (unguarded healers, "squishies" wandering alone, etc) but when it comes to the skilled team versus skilled team fights, operative can't do much, and what is worse, it can't offer anything useful for the team.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Escarrabutxaques

[Bocherel]

What he said, to the letter.

 

Well except he fails to realize that we are NOT asking for anything right now

 

We got our nerf already, we ask to not FURTHER nerf our burst OR we'll need a gap closer or something to compensate.

 

As it is now it's fine but people still complain about us thus we are nerfed

[JaddynnStarr]

the plot here is simple... BW wants us all to play tank classes... easiest way to do that... cave to the tank QQers and dumb down every other class till tank is the only viable option to play and get anywhere with... welcome to Star Wars: Tanks of the Republic

[me_unknown]

Well it was interesting to think about all of the posibilities and there are probably more we didn't cover. Being honest i don't think the win is reliable, it requires you to be perfect and to not make a single mistake, and none of us do that, we're all human. I think it is possible though and i have killed a few ops after being opened on from stealth.

me too. i also killed plenty of them.

but i know a few, one is in my new guild that in 99% of the fights i cannot kill. the reason is simply. most ops i meat are doing it wrong.

 

most ops i see do not even use their blaster while they are running after me, problably because they thing their blaster does so low damage that it isn't worth.

they are wrong.

[BelphagorAD]

So survivability is what is needed to keep them from being 'defenseless' after their initial burst, reinvis, re-HS.

 

Why don't they add additional passive training in defense for Ops/Scoundrels. Not that we're going to have them tank or anything, but they are nimble, they should be better at evading melee & ranged attacks. But now have their passive ability add their defense chance against opposed tech attacks.

 

Not too unlike the assassin/shadow training where they get additional endurance & shock/project damage- the ops/scoundrel could gain 3% additional passive defense at 10, 25, & 40. They are trained to be active in the thick of it 4-10m afterall- they would know how to avoid more than the Sniper/GS while not relying on cover.

 

Granted 9% isn't all that much at first, but then modify tactical advantage/upper hand, so that each stack also grants an additional 2% defense. Sure you'll probably want to spend those, but it'd be an option for those that hold stacks for the added defense against melee, ranged, & tech attacks.

 

But but but- what about force attacks? We'd still be vulnerable to force type attacks, but with added tech defense it would open up some other target options that you could survive against while chipping away at them.

 

This added passive defense should help us survive longer while not being overpowering at the same time, nor turning ops/scoundrel into tanks.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

The class is already easy to play.

 

Knockdown, stab, stab, stab.

 

I love how people who don't really play a class like to comment on how easy it is and what the rotation is. I can do it too...

 

Sorc is easy to play just

CC, Lightning, Lightning, slow, Lightning

 

Marauder is easy to play, just

leap, saber attack, kick, leap, saber attack

 

Merc is really easy, just

Tracer missile, tracer missile, big missile attack

 

See, gross oversimplifications is something anyone can do.

 

@OP, I agree that Scoundrel/Op is getting another nerf. BW I think tried to hide the nerf with the damage bonus to BS/BB but the slowing down of the rotation and the decrease in our major UH/TA using attack just ruins this class. I mainly play healer, so I am happy with the buff we are getting, but I did play DPS for awhile and it was just pathetic. Our damage is completely gear, adrenal, relic, and situational based. People get hit by one good Op/Scoundrel who managed to get them at the perfect time and wreck them, and immediately they cry nerf.

 

@ all you people who said L2P Op/Scoundrel because the nerf wasn't that bad. Well welcome to patch 1.Nerf, where almost half the classes are getting nerfed. Let see who needs to l2p now.

[QuiJonPed]

If you played a level 50 Operative you would know good and well how problematic a 12 second cool down back stab really is.

 

That 3 seconds is a 33% increase in cooldown... please read that carefuly: 33%.

 

 

I play an OP, quite happy with it.

 

Statistics are a crutch for the weak minded. 33% is just a fatuous way to make 3 seconds sound worse than it is. The OP stated that they'd now only be able to use Backstab "once in a blue moon". As per my post, an extra three seconds does not equate to "once in a lbue moon".

 

Adjust your rotation. Adapt. Or unsub. I care not which.

[KKaae]

finally I can address all of you at once. (low operative/scoundrel count etc)

 

Merc damage dealers, have a 0% chance against you if you open the fight on us rather than us on you. provided you have champion gear or better.

 

(yeah yeah, i know merc damage dealers are doing it wrong, but then why shouldnt all damage dealers be equal ?)

 

if my determination is up, I go back down, if it is not, I am able to move at 20-35% life remaining, and then I am slowed and dotted, AND you are in my face.

 

I dont know how you manage against force users, and I dont care, but against damage mercs/troopers, you are beasts.

 

I know its not much of a comparison, but imagine me, being OBLITERATED by the "WORST" class, then what does that make me?

 

Full BM Pyro Merc.

[QuiJonPed]

finally I can address all of you at once. (low operative/scoundrel count etc)

 

I did /lol

 

One of those "it's funny because it's true" situations.

Edited March 22, 2012 by QuiJonPed

[aspectsofwar]

Losing the best part of your hp to a stunlock/alpha strike from stealth is never fun. It got old fast in WoW and has no place in any other MMO either.

 

This sort of thing will inevitably give rise to legions of nerf criers and ragequitting players, who find their enjoyment of PvP curtailed by OP classes taking any element of player skill and reaction out of the fight equation due to lopsided class advantages.

 

It wouldn't matter if it was only 1 person playing the class/spec on each server. The problem isn't the player, it's about game balance.

 

It needs toning down, it's getting toned down. Other classes/specs are also getting hit with the nerf bat because they too need it. Hopefully the game will be better for it when the dust settles.

 

In the meantime, stop relying on your faceroll hotkey sequence>dead player>restealth>next victim and l2play.

 

You know what. I actually agree with you. You know whats funny? These changes did not nerf Op burst at all. It nerfed their SUSTAINED DPS. It nerfed their sustained DPS very badly when it was already the worst in the game.

 

These changes did not solve the problem everyone else was complaining about. It just created a new and different problem for Operatives in PVE and in PvP outside of their initial burst.

 

If Bioware knew what they were doing they would LOWER the cooldown of backstab and reduce its damage. Too bad they do not.

Edited March 22, 2012 by aspectsofwar

[xorcist]

Stop crying, just cause you can't kill a player within 2 seconds of an attack. Kick to the pills and quick shot until death. They have observed and tested. The nerf is warranted.

[Grisher]

Its not as bad as it sounds, reaplying those skills as you say will require you two reenter stealth!

This means that reaplying these skills can only be done tice in a twelve seconds.....and after that you either need to die, get out of combat or wait for disapearing act to finish its cooldown!

So as you understand, shoot first cannot be reaplied over and over time and again!

[ripamorame]

Seriously. As lvl 20 Jugg once I encounter well geared lvl 49 Operative in Alderan. Because of gear and skill gap he could easly kill me. What did I do ? I snared him :-D And then I was running around stupid node. He was not in range so he could not use mele abilities and even overload didn't help him since node was between us. And my AOE snare is spamable.

 

We dont have a snare we have a slow that is all.

[Dmasterr]

Stop crying, just cause you can't kill a player within 2 seconds of an attack. Kick to the pills and quick shot until death. They have observed and tested. The nerf is warranted.

 

I do not know whether to laugh or cry.

[DariuszPol]

You blind or something? When did i ever say that everything going on about the ops is fine?

Its far from fine. I only stated that i can win almost against everyone in 1v1 situations.

The operative needs to be seriously redisigned and buffed in aspects other than the initial burst. And btw i still havent met ANY sorc(other than healer) that could run away from me on 1v1 sittuations let alone kite and kill me, even the best ones on my server.

 

And this is proof for what ? They are terrible. Most of PVP people are noobs just because they don't learn. Even at lvl 50 just because most of them played PVE on lvl 50 and joined PVP at that point. I see

~ healers that on almost dead targets try to use long heal while they could shield him and then heal (people die before 2,5s heal kick in)

~ tanks that NEVER guard even in defensive stance

~ operatives that spam abilities so much that in few seconds are out of resources

~ sorcs that act as punching bag because they don't use force sprint outside hutball and they fail to use other abilities in right moment to kite etc

~ bounty hunters / trooper with their tracer / grav spam that interrupted make them run away or stand like idiots instead using other abilities

 

So if EVEN BEST SORCS on your server don't kite you then it's ONE TERRIBLE SERVER with worst sorcs I EVER SEEN.

[ripamorame]

At lvl 50 I didn't even care about Operatives anymore. Their initial burst don't hurt me (26k HP), I have 2 defensive skills (40% damage reduction and shield that soak damage for few secodns - sabre ward), snare, taunt, quite nice damage and I can keep sustained dps while they don't. More to that - when I force leap I'm immune to CC for a moment. Seriously - I can just run around quite a while with some Operative on my back. I can't say the same for any other class.

Oh so thats why on a opener i can get dropped to a 3rd of my health ye you have no idea of juggernauts unless your some hybrid spec immortal and unstoppable dont work and unstoppable working would mean he's out of stealth your points are invalid also if you pvp geared with 26k i call ******** and if your pve geared you must be wearing some magic armor because the highest i have seen is 25k you are trying to make you that juggernauts are op tanks and they are not at all i know i play one and all the juggs in my guild agree theres a reason theyre getting buffed i know im off subject but idiot who make up data and info from thin are are idiots

Edited March 22, 2012 by ripamorame

[Morticoccus]

Marauder is easy to play, just

leap, saber attack, kick, leap, saber attack

 

You do not lead with leap, leading with leap leaves you open to ability dependent kiting strategies, you run up and attack, apply DOT and snare and THEN use leap to counter the inevitable knockback.

 

For snipers you obviously need to use camo as a gap closer if he snares you.

 

Leap is one of our interrupts/gap closers, NOT an initiate, unless you are absolutely sure you can get use out of the momentary immobilize.

[Bocherel]

finally I can address all of you at once. (low operative/scoundrel count etc)

 

Merc damage dealers, have a 0% chance against you if you open the fight on us rather than us on you. provided you have champion gear or better.

 

(yeah yeah, i know merc damage dealers are doing it wrong, but then why shouldnt all damage dealers be equal ?)

 

if my determination is up, I go back down, if it is not, I am able to move at 20-35% life remaining, and then I am slowed and dotted, AND you are in my face.

 

I dont know how you manage against force users, and I dont care, but against damage mercs/troopers, you are beasts.

 

I know its not much of a comparison, but imagine me, being OBLITERATED by the "WORST" class, then what does that make me?

 

Full BM Pyro Merc.

You're doing it wrong...

 

I play a command and an operative, both 50 pvp geared.

 

If you're in a regular situation (which will not often be the case I admit, remember : we almost ALWAYS engage you when you cracked a cooldown, took some damages, etc > we stalk you) then you can perfect the ops from 30% life.

 

 

Assuming you don't even have your CC breaker, bump him as soon as needed + cryo (a good op will purge the slow but so can you if he manages to put it on you from 10m range)

 

If he breaks the cryo then AWESOME because you will instant mezz him (keep running), if he doesn't then AWESOME you still have it to CC when needed.

 

 

Don't BOTHER healing yourself (unless you got a stimpack), it's a waste of time, instead take your time and distance him > then slow him to death (remember, you are pyro) and use only instant + prepare yourself to unstealth him in case he vanish

 

This is a guaranteed win unless you have really no cooldown to use and the ops has his cooldown up but in that case you deserved to die and even at this point you will manage to kill the average ops if you bump+slow

Edited March 22, 2012 by Bocherel

[Morticoccus]

You're doing it wrong...

 

I play a command and an operative, both 50 pvp geared.

 

If you're in a regular situation (which will not often be the case I admit, remember : we almost ALWAYS engage you when you cracked a cooldown, took some damages, etc > we stalk you) then you can perfect the ops from 30% life.

 

 

Assuming you don't even have your CC breaker, bump him as soon as needed + cryo (a good op will purge the slow but so can you if he manages to put it on you from 10m range)

 

If he breaks the cryo then AWESOME because you will instant mezz him (keep running), if he doesn't then AWESOME you still have it to CC when needed.

 

 

Don't BOTHER healing yourself (unless you got a stimpack), it's a waste of time, instead take your time and distance him > then slow him to death (remember, you are pyro) and use only instant + prepare yourself to unstealth him in case he vanish

 

This is a guaranteed win unless you have really no cooldown to use and the ops has his cooldown up but in that case you deserved to die and even at this point you will manage to kill the average ops if you bump+slow

 

And if you play sent you have a better chance of running into a stealth class than they have to hit you first. I basically have no problem with being backstabbed once in a blue moon, especially not since I have my defensive CDs and most ops are stupid enough to keep proccing rebuke even when they DO manage to hit first.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

You do not lead with leap, leading with leap leaves you open to ability dependent kiting strategies, you run up and attack, apply DOT and snare and THEN use leap to counter the inevitable knockback.

 

For snipers you obviously need to use camo as a gap closer if he snares you.

 

Leap is one of our interrupts/gap closers, NOT an initiate, unless you are absolutely sure you can get use out of the momentary immobilize.

 

You missed the whole point of my post. I was pointing out that anyone can make up an overgeneralized rotation for a class.

[PolakToma]

The class is already easy to play.

 

Knockdown, stab, stab, stab.

 

Yes I cant wait the LICK the tears of the faces of all the imp ops who troll light armor users such as the inq. classes.

 

This is why you guys are getting nerfed, you only ever target light armor users for fast easy kills because you can keep them down and stun locked as you do your thing and they have nothing to come at you with, and there is a million inqs out there who cried about this and this is why you are being nerfed.

 

If you werent greedy for EASY kills and always singling out inqs they would not have cried for nerfs.

[PolakToma]

You missed the whole point of my post. I was pointing out that anyone can make up an overgeneralized rotation for a class.

 

Overgeneralized? No its pretty general and I havent seen a single op/smug that does anything different, target light armor user and then spam your op moves

[Ahebish]

I want scoundrels and operatives to have just a good time playing like everyone else..

 

But the truth is most of these players are just bad players who fails to understand they have other skills then the 1 button they spam, while trying to get behind the other player. Most times i dual these players they spam that one skill 90% of the time because they know it's a winn skill. That with more stuns then others.So l2p stop whining and use

your other skills like everyone else to winn.

 

This made me giggle.

 

ty

 

Such an expert on a class you obviously have never played.

 

You haven't the slightest clue how many skills we have to use in a 1v1 much less any other situation.

 

Everybody wants to be like Mike, yet noone can play like him.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ahebish

[Stormbad]

Wow, for all of you who play an Operative and think 1.2 is fine, I have a question for you.

 

 

Do you play any other classes? Do you have anything else in the 50s?

 

I'm not the best PvPer in the world but I do fairly well with my Operative and I could say that 1.2 isn't going to nerf me too much.

 

 

However.

 

I also have a Marauder and a Mercenary. I do EXTREMELY well with them, so much so that my OP cannot even compare with how good the Merc and Ani-Marauder is in PvP. I destroy people.

 

Please do a fair comparison before judging the OP. If the OP is your only class in the 50s, you can't really understand what the OP has been through and what the OP will become in 1.2.

 

<--- unsubbed. Gl all.

[Ahebish]

Yes I cant wait the LICK the tears of the faces of all the imp ops who troll light armor users such as the inq. classes.

 

This is why you guys are getting nerfed, you only ever target light armor users for fast easy kills because you can keep them down and stun locked as you do your thing and they have nothing to come at you with, and there is a million inqs out there who cried about this and this is why you are being nerfed.

 

If you werent greedy for EASY kills and always singling out inqs they would not have cried for nerfs.

 

Anyone feel I should post my PVP video yet?

 

Showing me crushing heavy armor users?

 

Or should I keep the pleasure of my ability to myself and let people like this go on thinking this?