1.2 and the Changes to PPA for Pyro Mercs

[IPillowPantsI]

Hey, Lv 44 Pyro Merc here as my current Alt. I am looking for some answers and opinions on the changes to PPA for us Pyro Mercs.

 

At first I didn't think the 1.2 changes were really going to effect us much, atleast those of us that already use CGC. I then read a post on the PvP forums about Pyro PTs and realized it is going to have an effect on us. Here is a link to that post.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=371363

 

Now my first question is, for Pyro Mercs can anyone tell us the Increased PPA proc Percents for Unload and Power Shot in 1.2? Previously I believe it was 60% and 30%.

 

Second question or maybe an opinion.

 

How will the 6 second internal cooldown on PPA effect our rotation? For the most part, I currently use the rotation of- TD, Incendiary, RS, Unload, then if PPA Procs- RS, then either Power shot or some rapid shots until I restart the rotation. Most skilled Pyros have already realized that if PPA procs off of Unload you stop the cast as soon as it hits to throw out the RS.

 

With the new 6 second limit, what can we fill the time with?

 

The start of the rotation will remain the same, but if Unload Procs PPA... It appears we will now have to 1. Allow Unload to finish its cast, 2. Use the RS 3. Find a 1 GC filler before using Power Shot (which also has been nerfed pretty hard).

 

So any tips or Ideas on that filler? Maybe just a Rapid Shots? Thanks for any help.

[Bamajawn]

I share your questions and concerns on the 1.2 changes to Pyro Mercs per my posting in the linked thread. From my reading, it looks like the nerfs that are directed at PT Pyros are going to hit us hard. Edited March 21, 2012 by Bamajawn

[Diddley]

The proc chance is now:

 

Unload = 75%

Powershot = 45%

 

From what I've read the 6 second cooldown starts as soon as PPA procs, so in fact, before you've even cast the free rail shot. Also bear in mind the 1.5 second global cooldown between abilities meaning that after rail shot you've already chewed up 1.5 seconds anyway.

 

Rapid shots is indeed your best option. The 1.5 second global cool down on 2 would get you pretty squared up for a proccing power shot at the end of the cast. Bear in mind unload procs at the start of the channel so you'd have to wait longer.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Diddley

[_DaGreat]

I share your questions and concerns on the 1.2 changes to Pyro Mercs per my posting in the linked thread. From my reading, it looks like the nerfs that are directed at PT Pyros are going to hit us hard.

 

This is exactly what happened. In attempt to nerf PT pyros they are hitting merc pyros as well. No one has complained about merc pyros and tbh if no one is complaining about you, you are probably already on the left side of the bell curve in terms of class overpowered status. So it kind of sucks.

Edited March 21, 2012 by _DaGreat

[TempestasSilva]

I wish I had valuable input, but I only played pyro from levels 42ish to 50. I will say that I loved PPA procs and while I kind of understand taking the randomness out, limiting to once every six seconds is a real drag on the fun value.

[IPillowPantsI]

This is exactly what happened. In attempt to nerf PT pyros they are hitting merc pyros as well. No one has complained about merc pyros and tbh if no one is complaining about you, you are probably already on the left side of the bell curve in terms of class overpowered status. So it kind of sucks.

 

 

Thanks for the info, I kinda figured rapid shots would work. Basically my rotation will now be TD, IM, RS, FULL Unload, RS, Rapid Shots, Then Power shot. If you add up the times for Unload Proc and PS Proc (once it actually fires) It will be almost enough time.

 

On a second note to the quote... Honestly I am really suprised that people don't cry about the DPS Pyro Mercs can do in PvP. I'm not saying this to brag- lets make that clear- but honestly I am 44 valor and lv 44, and I have only been out-damaged twice in any WZ. I'm being honest, I never see below 200k anymore and I've already toppled 450K. The fact that we are ranged and mobile with that damage blows my mind. Oh and thanks to DoTs, My Kill rate is almost always with a 50% blows/kills ratio.

[_DaGreat]

Honestly I am really suprised that people don't cry about the DPS Pyro Mercs can do in PvP. .

 

A number of reasons I would guess. We don't bring a lot of utility to WZs besides DPS so it should be expected that we are near the top of the WZ boards for DPS. It is not like we are dropping 400K DPS + 200K in heals or can tank the ball in huttball. Also, all DPS is not created equal. A lot of our DPS is from DOTs and/or AOE which is less important (and less noticeable) then single target burst DPS.

[scootle]

Our concerns are lost because merc/pyro is largely considered "inferior" to PT/pyro... and for mercs, every other merc is arsenal, so yeah... we are a small minority. Plus the RNG nature of merc/pyro burst made it harder to pin down for PvP qq, I think... but yes, when things line up, you can destroy stuff fast with our burst capability as merc/pyro.

 

That said, your concerns are valid and I can only hope that someone on the dev team has though this out.

 

Nerfing power shot by 10% dmg AND PPA proc rate really hurts merc/pyro dps more than any other BH spec at this point, since our filler shot was power shot when everything else is on CD. Arsenal at least gained a buff to HSM as a small compensation, pyro got nothing.

 

As for the whole "hit unload to proc PPA, then cancel" (same with powershot), that was mostly for PvP purposes. In PvE, I'd expect it's better to just let it ride since you invest the heat once you hit the ability anyhow, no sense "wasting" the dmg per heat like that when you are already invested...

 

For heat management purposes in PvE, I just default to powershot/rapidshot couples to gain that small tick of heat regen before my next special. Seems to work out most of the time unless I am unlucky and get zero PPA procs after 2-3 consecutive cycles (which happens more often than it should).

 

Honestly, 6 sec internal CD on our primary heat dump (RS via PPA procs) is very very distressing...

Edited March 21, 2012 by scootle

[mcfugly]

Our concerns are lost because merc/pyro is largely considered "inferior" to PT/pyro... and for mercs, every other merc is arsenal, so yeah... we are a small minority. Plus the RNG nature of merc/pyro burst made it harder to pin down for PvP qq, I think... but yes, when things line up, you can destroy stuff fast with our burst capability as merc/pyro.

 

That said, your concerns are valid and I can only hope that someone on the dev team has though this out.

 

Nerfing power shot by 10% dmg AND PPA proc rate really hurts merc/pyro dps more than any other BH spec at this point, since our filler shot was power shot when everything else is on CD. Arsenal at least gained a buff to HSM as a small compensation, pyro got nothing.

 

As for the whole "hit unload to proc PPA, then cancel" (same with powershot), that was mostly for PvP purposes. In PvE, I'd expect it's better to just let it ride since you invest the heat once you hit the ability anyhow, no sense "wasting" the dmg per heat like that when you are already invested...

 

For heat management purposes in PvE, I just default to powershot/rapidshot couples to gain that small tick of heat regen before my next special. Seems to work out most of the time unless I am unlucky and get zero PPA procs after 2-3 consecutive cycles (which happens more often than it should).

 

Honestly, 6 sec internal CD on our primary heat dump (RS via PPA procs) is very very distressing...

 

Perfect keep this thread going we pyro mercs are taking a nerf because of powertechs/*** ever the pugs call it vangaurd I guess and ars mercs. Do these dev's even play the damn game?

[ForceWelder]

Perfect keep this thread going we pyro mercs are taking a nerf because of powertechs/*** ever the pugs call it vangaurd I guess and ars mercs. Do these dev's even play the damn game?

 

Truthfully, I have my doubts. They rely on internal testing, feedback from players, and their own numbers being generated behind the scenes.

 

But one thing I thing needs to be questioned is how much is being tested on the test servers. I don't know if people can cross over their high level characters or have to create from scratch. If it is the latter then the devs likely aren't getting the numbers they need to verify the changes. This is especially true for PVP where you need seperate inputs from a number of different players and at different levels across all builds and advance classes.

 

I simply question whether they are getting the number of testers and data input they need to make informed changes to the classes.

[IPillowPantsI]

So after doing some PvP and story missions with my Merc last night I kind of drew some conclusions about the nerf.

 

In PvE, the nerf will actually help some people. In terms of Heat management that is. Since most of us pretty much try to avoid power shot unless everything else is on cool down, the need for that extra one or two GCDs filled with rapid shots actually helped with Heat. The 10% damage reduc. does suck for a last choice attack, but the increased PPA proc chance will make up for it in the long run.

 

Now PvP is another story. Seeing as how we want as much quick burst DPS as we can get, 1on1 we will be fine, but 2on1 or two people in succession will be more of a struggle now. I try to not use too many Rapid Shots in my rotations unless it is to kick up a cleansed CGC and to throw out the 2 sec slow for kiting people. In the end I find that we still have plenty of burst, but that extra gap between our bursts can mean an extra opponent heal or time for their friend to turn it into a 2on1.

 

In the end, since we know they won't take back the nerf because it is needed for PT Pyros and Arsenal, I vote for a very slight buff for us in another area. I came up with a great one too. REDUCE THE HEAT COST OF FUSION MISSLE TO 25 OR 20. I find Fusion missle is a fantastic AOE and single target attack, but at a cost of 33 Heat... It just isn't worth it 90% of the time. At the same time, I feel that buff will both help us slightly, and be minor enough that people will not QQ.

 

Thanks to those that took the time to read this.

[ugig]

I would think that in situations where burst is needed, the best rotation would be the same one we had been using in TD>IM>RS>Unload>{RS when it procs, pwr shot when rs is CD}

 

Most of us probably allready specced muzzle fluting for the heat reduction on pwr shot anyway, so we stay specced in it to it to keep the cast time at 1.5 seconds, no change except 10% dmg reduction, depending on the target it will still do more dmg in its 1.5 seconds than rapid shots will (you guys were dropping pwer shot out of rotation and using rapid shots instead vs tank types werent you?).

 

I do think that if they are going to give asenal HSM a 10% buff to make up for the 10% nerf to their main filler TM, then by same logic our TD should gain a 10% buff as well.

[Yazule]

FULL Unload

 

personally i think pyro NOT using full unload is why they made the change

 

so its working i guess

[scootle]

Truthfully, I have my doubts. They rely on internal testing, feedback from players, and their own numbers being generated behind the scenes.

 

But one thing I thing needs to be questioned is how much is being tested on the test servers. I don't know if people can cross over their high level characters or have to create from scratch. If it is the latter then the devs likely aren't getting the numbers they need to verify the changes. This is especially true for PVP where you need seperate inputs from a number of different players and at different levels across all builds and advance classes.

 

I simply question whether they are getting the number of testers and data input they need to make informed changes to the classes.

 

this is the problem... PTS has no mass char copy ability right now... only "invited" guilds with L50s to test raid content are being manually copied over at the discretion of the devs. the only PTS server available is a PvE one, too, so PvP in the grand sense is likely secondary. from what i've been hearing, there isn't even enough L50 population to reliably pop WZs for testing on PTS...

 

I honestly have no idea how any meaningful testing can occur with "fringe" specs like Merc/Pyro given such limited sampling, which is very very disappointing and a bit discomforting.

[Xerks]

^^ Until the population is able to transfer characters to PTS, the devs are basically making changes based on live servers and only testing the changes on a very small percentage of players. This can lead to bad things. Edited March 23, 2012 by Xerks

[teyngodown]

just wondering... kind of off topic i guess (still on topic with merc/pyro but a lil off PPA subject) Did they increase the proc chance of CGC. Currently talented its a 16% chance. In my book thats incredibly low to be reliable. I've gone through a full rotation multiple times and never procd the burn.

 

I understand IM causes a burn which can be used with RS, but for kiting/cc purposes an increased proc chance on a dot/snare would do wonders for pyro survivability. On top of that it would give us far more utility in WZ's (especially huttball) because we can reliably apply a single target snare without having to channel a cast. Giving our teamates/ourselves more time to burn down a ball carrier, keep a target in range to get through a full dps rotation, or slow down someone you just absolutely need to get away from.

 

If the % has been increased then we may be in a better position than i expected. I don't mind changing up my play style a bit for a little more utility at the expense of some spike damage.

 

If the % is the same then maybe pyro just isn't meant to be.

 

BW Employee: Hey we made a cool dps spec for Powertechs!

 

BW Team leader: To bad they already have one, and a tank tree...

 

BW Employee: Oh...

 

BW Team leader: Well we already gave Mercenaries Healing and a good spike dps tree so I guess we can make this the shared tree.

 

BW Employee: But its not meant for Mercenaries...

 

BW Team leader: Change a couple Powertech skills for Mercenary skills and voila job done.

 

BW Employee: That sounds great! I'll use Power Shot and Unload in place of Flameburst and Rocket Punch.

 

BW Team leader: See now your thinkin!!

 

BW Employee: Did you see what i did there?

 

BW Team leader: Uh yah just switched 2 skills for 2 skills its not that difficult...

 

BW Employee: (laughter) NO I mean the skill names. One starts with "P" and the other "U"...P-U get it?! Because Mercenaries are going to stink at this spec.

 

BW Team leader: (L0L) You're a genius!! They'll never expect it either! There will be Mercenaries that play this spec and think its "AMAZING!", and they won't even realize how stupid they look!!

[iDubstep]

Originally wasn't Advanced Prototype going to be the shared tree? I have a Merc and PT and I like playing Pyro on either but I think having the option to spec in to some utility on a Merc could be interesting.

[scootle]

I do think that if they are going to give asenal HSM a 10% buff to make up for the 10% nerf to their main filler TM, then by same logic our TD should gain a 10% buff as well.

 

This might not be a bad idea to mirror the HSM buff as "compensation".

 

I so hope a dev is reading this thread... I honestly have doubts that merc/pyro is getting much test time at all since this is not a popular spec with the kiddies.

[IPillowPantsI]

Truthfully, I have my doubts. They rely on internal testing, feedback from players, and their own numbers being generated behind the scenes.

 

But one thing I thing needs to be questioned is how much is being tested on the test servers. I don't know if people can cross over their high level characters or have to create from scratch. If it is the latter then the devs likely aren't getting the numbers they need to verify the changes. This is especially true for PVP where you need seperate inputs from a number of different players and at different levels across all builds and advance classes.

 

I simply question whether they are getting the number of testers and data input they need to make informed changes to the classes.

 

I'm honestly not upset at the changes to our tree. I just don't understand where the justification for it lies...

 

I never see people crying that we are overpowered, and very few people cry that we are underpowered. So just based off the feedback, I would assume our class was very balanced. Yet these changes to adjust some problems with other classes and specs hit us. So I ask, WHY?

 

If BW sees an issue in their numbers and testing, then they should atleast give us a idea or clue to this. Instead, to us it just appears that they adjusted some shared skills for other specs and we pay the price.

[vimm]

Indeed it is an unnecessary change to a fun and balanced spec. (For Mercenary)

[BloodfinReck]

They need to find a way to differentiate PT Pyros from Merc Pyros. It was lazy to make the talent trees so similar in the first place. Having a well-balanced spec catch a nerf that is intended for a completely different spec shows a lack of planning and understanding about how the game works.

 

Personally I'd appreciate a tweak to OUR talent tree that keeps us viable and seperates us more from our PT counterparts.

[bahdasz]

basically

 

f'ed in the a

 

all that needs to be said

 

Thanks everyone else for ruining our game. Nice to see being the one form of BH that nobody ever accuses of being OP really paid off for us.

 

It's SWG all over again.

[Ihazcrayon]

The sky hath fallen. Quoth the over-reacter nevermore.

 

It's not the end of the world. Adapt. It's the nature of MMO's to get buffed and nerfed. This is quite minor. Yet so many people throw a tantrum like my 2 yr old cousin who doesn't wanna take a bath.

[BloodfinReck]

Ah, yes...the L2Play/Adapt guy has finally shown up to the party. I don't think the vast majority of the posts here are being whiny or unreasonable. I think most people are just concerned that a well balanced spec is getting a bystander nerf. If WE were the over-powered spec it'd make sense to think "ok, we had it pretty good for a while but now we gotta suck it up and adjust." Personally I'm more concerned about this being a case where Merc Pyros are gonna be collateral damage because we aren't seen as a popular spec. Hopefully posts in this thread can help prove otherwise.

[IPillowPantsI]

The sky hath fallen. Quoth the over-reacter nevermore.

 

It's not the end of the world. Adapt. It's the nature of MMO's to get buffed and nerfed. This is quite minor. Yet so many people throw a tantrum like my 2 yr old cousin who doesn't wanna take a bath.

 

Did I miss the tantrums somewhere? Did you even fully read the posts? please do not reply to my threads if you have nothing constructive to add. Your comments were completely negative and not needed in anyway, so please move along.

 

Back on topic....

 

To the above poster, I agree in the feeling of being collateral damage. Also, with the changes to DFA; if they keep the PTS setup BH's will be hurt all around.

 

Like I said before... In terms of Merc Pyros, where is the reason or justification for these changes? We are already the weaker DPS in PvE and these changes are going to hurt us in PvE and PvP.

Edited March 24, 2012 by IPillowPantsI