Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[Assaultrooper]

ive been playing full pyrotech for a while now, and i have never, ever, ever gotten 3 procs in a row.

 

add to that the fact that rail shot needs to crit to actually do decent damage (being weapon damage it hits like a wet noodle otherwise), the chance of the triple rail shot where all 3 are crits is like winning the lottery; its not something that is easily, if at all, repeatable or reproducible.

 

bioware cannot make such a sweeping nerf of a class based on a chain of events that has such a small chance of occuring.

 

they claim to have all these fancy metrics to understand the mechanics of the game, but if that was true they would have already known that there was no need to change the pyrotech spec at all. bioware's class changes are based solely on the responses from the overwhelming terribad player population.

 

pyrotech was fine. in the hands of a good player it was a devastating weapon, but that is so with any class.

 

bioware is not making any further changes to pyrotech, that is clear enough.

 

You do realize that he didn't even say 3 procs in a row, but added to that 3 CRITS of these procs..

 

I think I once had 3 procs in a row, but I have never had more than 2 crits railshot back to back..

 

/signed again btw

Edited March 29, 2012 by Assaultrooper

[cashogy]

You do realize that he didn't even say 3 procs in a row, but added to that 3 CRITS of these procs..

 

I think I once had 3 procs in a row, but I have never had more than 2 crits railshot back to back..

 

/signed again btw

 

yeah i misread what he wrote

 

but the chance of that occurring is so outrageously small that it might happen once ever 100 warzones. you cannot implement a blanket nerf because of something MIGHT occur once in a blue moon.

 

bioware nerfed pyrotech for the same reason theyre nerfing operative for the 3rd time. a small percentage of the community plays that spec, and it is more important to keep the glowbat weilding masses happy so that they will keep paying bioware money.

[Spazbitelol]

/signed

 

I play a Pyro PT myself. I will /sign, that the changes are poorly thought out.

I´m not even mentioning the chance that ppa procs while railshot is not on cooldown.

 

I hope they reconsider the change and listen to the community while going back to the drawingboard to think of some better way to reduce burst a little.

[fungihoujo]

You'll still be able to hit harder in a short period of time than everyone else, with perhaps agents being comparable. Not that it's a good nerf- frankly most nerfs that don't add something to balance tend to be bad unless absolutely needed- but at least you still have rail shots, and can double shot, plus thermal, plus rocket punch, plus dot- to all go off within 4.5 seconds for upwards of 18k (more reasonably around 12k on BM, medium armour- still a huge amount in a short time).

 

They are missing some good heat venting though, that's one thing that could be modified to help out with sustained.

[Varicite]

You'll still be able to hit harder in a short period of time than everyone else, with perhaps agents being comparable. Not that it's a good nerf- frankly most nerfs that don't add something to balance tend to be bad unless absolutely needed- but at least you still have rail shots, and can double shot, plus thermal, plus rocket punch, plus dot- to all go off within 4.5 seconds for upwards of 18k (more reasonably around 12k on BM, medium armour- still a huge amount in a short time).

 

They are missing some good heat venting though, that's one thing that could be modified to help out with sustained.

 

Yeah, I definitely recognize that our class isn't going to be "trash" or anything after the change, but the mechanics sound like they're going to be clunky, looking at the spreadsheets.

[Audenlol]

I agree, more predictable damage is preferred.

 

 

 

What if right after PPA procs you get stunned? In order to know how many globals you have before the internal cooldown wears off you will need to subtract the exact duration of the stun from 6, subtract an additional 1.5 seconds for the Rail Shot you are about to cast, then divide this number by 1.5 and round down to determine how many globals you can't cast Flame Burst/Rocket Punch. This is if you want to maximize damage.

 

What if you get line-of-sighted for x amount of seconds, and so you can't judge the time passed by how many globals you've used? In order to maximize damage we will need to know exactly when the cooldown is up.

 

 

 

Other abilities? If Thermal Detonator is on cooldown the only other damage ability left is auto-attack, which hits for pathetic damage. This is obviously a large DPS decrease.

 

 

 

I'm all for making the rotation fluid and raising the skillcap on PT Pyro, I just don't think the current fix is the best way to accomplish this.

 

Then you suck it up.

 

Many times I popped a cd (by choice!) and then got stunned cced or whatever by players randomly showing uP

[cashogy]

You'll still be able to hit harder in a short period of time than everyone else, with perhaps agents being comparable. Not that it's a good nerf- frankly most nerfs that don't add something to balance tend to be bad unless absolutely needed- but at least you still have rail shots, and can double shot, plus thermal, plus rocket punch, plus dot- to all go off within 4.5 seconds for upwards of 18k (more reasonably around 12k on BM, medium armour- still a huge amount in a short time).

 

They are missing some good heat venting though, that's one thing that could be modified to help out with sustained.

 

18K? you just pulled that number out of your butt.

 

lets assume everything crits. the chances of that occurring are tiny, but lets assume for fun.

 

thermal det is typically 3.5-4k, rail shot 3.5-4k, rocket punch 2.5-3k. the dot is negligible.

 

thats a total of 13-15k damage, on all crits. if youve got a WZ expertise stim up, you MIGHT get that up a little higher, again assuming all crits.

 

thank you for yet again proving that the vast majority of the community just likes to pull numbers out of their butt when discussing class mechanics..

 

the nerf to pyrotech was unwarranted, and brought about by a large amount of players crying about it on the forums. looking at real metrics proves that there was nothing out of the ordinary, JUST A DPS CLASS DOING DPS.

 

crazy thought i know, dps class actually doing dps. what is the world coming to.

Edited March 29, 2012 by cashogy

[fungihoujo]

18K? you just pulled that number out of your butt.

 

lets assume everything crits. the chances of that occurring are tiny, but lets assume for fun.

 

thermal det is typically 3.5-4k, rail shot 3.5-4k, rocket punch 2.5-3k. the dot is negligible.

 

thats a total of 13-15k damage, on all crits. if youve got a WZ expertise stim up, you MIGHT get that up a little higher, again assuming all crits.

 

thank you for yet again proving that the vast majority of the community just likes to pull numbers out of their butt when discussing class mechanics..

 

the nerf to pyrotech was unwarranted, and brought about by a large amount of players crying about it on the forums. looking at real metrics proves that there was nothing out of the ordinary, JUST A DPS CLASS DOING DPS.

 

crazy thought i know, dps class actually doing dps. what is the world coming to.

 

When I say top capability- I mean it. I've seen rail shots over 5k, thermals up to 4.5k, rocket punch over 3.5k- at the top. That adds up to about 18k.

 

Yet, you clearly missed reading the part where I said the more normal numbers would be around 12k damage. Thanks for proving people don't like to read before they fly off the handle.

[fungihoujo]

Yeah, I definitely recognize that our class isn't going to be "trash" or anything after the change, but the mechanics sound like they're going to be clunky, looking at the spreadsheets.

 

Oh, they're clunky. Pyrotech already feels very clunky, perhaps only comparable to snipers for clunkiness. The way their procs currently work already is a bit on the clunky side- this just makes it more awkward. I don't mind a class being more challenging to play to its potential- but not when it's due to poorly thought out mechanics.

[cashogy]

When I say top capability- I mean it. I've seen rail shots over 5k, thermals up to 4.5k, rocket punch over 3.5k- at the top. That adds up to about 18k.

 

Yet, you clearly missed reading the part where I said the more normal numbers would be around 12k damage. Thanks for proving people don't like to read before they fly off the handle.

 

those numbers, which would add up to 18k+, occur with CONSUMABLES.

 

so, for a 20 second window every 3 minutes, pyrotech is capable of 18k+ damage spikes, assuming every single ability crits when you want it to (and in reality that very, very rarely happens).

 

consumables allow just about any DPS class to put up stupid amounts of damage like this.

 

the kind of damage numbers that many players claim to be causing the problem, are a) achievable in short bursts by any properly spec'd and played DPS class just like a pyrtotech and b) able to occur during a 20s window every 3 minutes, and then the planets have to align to get everything to crit to the max.

 

the point still remains that pre 1.2 pyrotech, when played properly, has a potential for massive DPS spikes. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER DPS CLASS IN THIS GAME.

 

there was no unbalance, no need for nerfing anything. but people cried about some very very isolated circumstances, and here we are

[Gaeta]

Pyrotech PT already has pretty serious heating problems. If you want to nerf my burst damage, fine. If you want to nerf my overall damage, bring it on, I'll learn to adapt. But having fewer rail shots means I will stay at higher heat, which will also mean I dissipate heat at a slower rate.

 

You don't nerf a class by nerfing it's strength (chance at burst) AND nerfing it's weakness (difficult resource management).

 

I also really hate that Powertech/Vanguard are in such a weird spot in terms of dps PvP gear. We have to use a mercenary/commando set to maximize dps as a pyrotech (shared tree), but we get 0 benefit from a 2-piece bonus since it's for a skill only one side has. Now if I end up having to switch to advanced prototype, I'll have to rebuild a combat tech set. Perhaps that's what pisses me off the most.

[Varicite]

Pyrotech PT already has pretty serious heating problems. If you want to nerf my burst damage, fine. If you want to nerf my overall damage, bring it on, I'll learn to adapt. But having fewer rail shots means I will stay at higher heat, which will also mean I dissipate heat at a slower rate.

 

You don't nerf a class by nerfing it's strength (chance at burst) AND nerfing it's weakness (difficult resource management).

 

I also really hate that Powertech/Vanguard are in such a weird spot in terms of dps PvP gear. We have to use a mercenary/commando set to maximize dps as a pyrotech (shared tree), but we get 0 benefit from a 2-piece bonus since it's for a skill only one side has. Now if I end up having to switch to advanced prototype, I'll have to rebuild a combat tech set. Perhaps that's what pisses me off the most.

 

I'm wondering if I can turn in my BM Eliminator pieces for WH Combat Tech after 1.2. <.<

[lilBastahd]

This nerf looks to be perfectly thought out by BW because of minimal impact of 6 sec ICD on sustained dps, big impact on burst damage and quite big decrease in chance of long no-proc periods (math already provided in this thread and in PT forum, even confirmed by founder of this thread).

 

This is why I think BW is not responding to cries about this change and is not doing any new changes to pyro on PTS (currently they are deploying PTS patch, so I may be wrong;))

 

either troll or didn't bother to read OP or this thread at all

[Zamm]

Here is my opinion:

 

Many things must happen to understand changes.

What is NOT on that list of what must happen is theorycrafting based on information given to you.

Anyone that theorycrafts based on someone (even pts patch notes) telling you an ability is going to do 15% less damage is moronic and can talk about the end being near all they'd like..

Until they actually TEST such information, their 'math' is just another fancy opinion.

 

Now then.

One of the things that must happen to understand changes to a class in an MMORPG:

Understand the changes to similar classes and understand how similar classes work.

 

Powertech, Assassin, Juggernaut.

These classes though very different, are the similar classes.

 

They can fulfill dps and tank roles.

If Powertechs, Assassins, or Juggernauts could do INSANE damage but the other two couldn't..

That would be pathetically idiotic.

There would be no reason to justify it, not even "they're different classes, so and so class can do something else better" ..

They need to be equivalent in the roles they are meant to provide.

This doesn't mean there shouldn't be any different strengths..

This means that a PT, Sin, or Jug shouldn't be able to do a crazy ton more damage than the other two, but not tank as well..

This means they should have the potential for equivalent damage, and equivalent tankage.

 

This is currently NOT the case.

Assassin's dps is great, if a great player is playing it which they could be doing double great on a class that isn't terrible in that role..

Juggernaut tanking is terrible in comparison to the other two.. (I don't care who has a Jug and thinks it's awesome.. It needs work, BW has yet to deliver on that.)

 

 

 

Ultimately:

Classes that share similar roles shouldn't be the same.

Classes that share similar roles shouldn't be better or worse.

 

A <insert Powertech, Assassin, or Juggernaut here> should NOT do better <insert DPS or Tanking here> than <insert the two that haven't been mentioned here>...

 

A <insert Powertech, Assassin, or Juggernaut here> should do <insert DPS or Tanking here> differently than <insert the two that haven't been mentioned here>...

 

It is my opinion that until all of the Tank/DPS ACs are doing either role differently on the SAME LEVEL that none of them should be nerfed/buffed/expanded upon unless it is in the interest of 'different > better'

 

There should never be a reason to play a class.

EVER.

When there is, few players play what they actually want to play, they play what they think they want to play...

They don't even know they're doing this when a class gets nerfed and they start playing another..

 

Person of Interest is coming on..

Time to watch Jesus shoot some knee-caps.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Zamm

[cashogy]

Here is my opinion:

 

Many things must happen to understand changes.

What is NOT on that list of what must happen is theorycrafting based on information given to you.

Anyone that theorycrafts based on someone (even pts patch notes) telling you an ability is going to do 15% less damage is moronic and can talk about the end being near all they'd like..

Until they actually TEST such information, their 'math' is just another fancy opinion.

 

Now then.

One of the things that must happen to understand changes to a class in an MMORPG:

Understand the changes to similar classes and understand how similar classes work.

 

Powertech, Assassin, Juggernaut.

These classes though very different, are the similar classes.

 

They can fulfill dps and tank roles.

If Powertechs, Assassins, or Juggernauts could do INSANE damage but the other two couldn't..

That would be pathetically idiotic.

There would be no reason to justify it, not even "they're different classes, so and so class can do something else better" ..

They need to be equivalent in the roles they are meant to provide.

This doesn't mean there shouldn't be any different strengths..

This means that a PT, Sin, or Jug shouldn't be able to do a crazy ton more damage than the other two, but not tank as well..

This means they should have the potential for equivalent damage, and equivalent tankage.

 

This is currently NOT the case.

Assassin's dps is great, if a great player is playing it which they could be doing double great on a class that isn't terrible in that role..

Juggernaut tanking is terrible in comparison to the other two.. (I don't care who has a Jug and thinks it's awesome.. It needs work, BW has yet to deliver on that.)

 

 

 

Ultimately:

Classes that share similar roles shouldn't be the same.

Classes that share similar roles shouldn't be better or worse.

 

A <insert Powertech, Assassin, or Juggernaut here> should NOT do better <insert DPS or Tanking here> than <insert the two that haven't been mentioned here>...

 

A <insert Powertech, Assassin, or Juggernaut here> should do <insert DPS or Tanking here> differently than <insert the two that haven't been mentioned here>...

 

It is my opinion that until all of the Tank/DPS ACs are doing either role differently on the SAME LEVEL that none of them should be nerfed/buffed/expanded upon unless it is in the interest of 'different > better'

 

There should never be a reason to play a class.

EVER.

When there is, few players play what they actually want to play, they play what they think they want to play...

They don't even know they're doing this when a class gets nerfed and they start playing another..

 

Person of Interest is coming on..

Time to watch Jesus shoot some knee-caps.

 

this entire post is just a lolfest

 

both assassins and juggernauts are capable of very, very, very good dps. just like a powertech, if theyre properly geared, properly spec'd, and an intelligent player they can turn their class into a DPS machine.

 

tanking in PvP for anyone is lol. you can thank bioware's wonderfully thought out combat mechanics for that.

 

if you want to try to justify the nerfs to BH's pyrotech tree, go ahead. the reality is that bioware did not make a logical decision with these nerfs. they saw all the QQ in the forums and decided to give the masses what they wanted. the same thing has happened to operative 3 times now.

 

call me old fashioned, but i think a developer should have some hard, physical evidence of a particular spec being overpowered. and that evidence should be presented to the players so that we understand why changes are being made. communication is an amazing tool. its a shame bioware chooses not to utilize it.

[Varicite]

Until they actually TEST such information, their 'math' is just another fancy opinion.

 

I would really love to do this, but I can't unfortunately, due to the lack of a character copy to the PTS.

 

I would settle for some hard information showing that PTs are doing fine, and that the heat vent mechanics aren't leading to long periods of rapid shots, or having to use rapid shots what seems like an entirely excessive amount in PvP engagements.

 

Unfortunately, there hasn't been any of that either, just people talking about their sister's friend's uncle's cousin who is on the PTS says that they're doing fine.

 

Our opinion is that the time for the ICD on PPA needs to be adjusted downward to 4.5 seconds, which is supported by math. If I'm wrong, I know that I personally wouldn't mind being shown that I'm wrong, especially if it means that our class won't have to deal w/ an even more terrible heat venting system in Pyro.

[Zamm]

this entire post is just a lolfest

 

both assassins and juggernauts are capable of very, very, very good dps. just like a powertech, if theyre properly geared, properly spec'd, and an intelligent player they can turn their class into a DPS machine.

 

tanking in PvP for anyone is lol. you can thank bioware's wonderfully thought out combat mechanics for that.

 

if you want to try to justify the nerfs to BH's pyrotech tree, go ahead. the reality is that bioware did not make a logical decision with these nerfs. they saw all the QQ in the forums and decided to give the masses what they wanted. the same thing has happened to operative 3 times now.

 

call me old fashioned, but i think a developer should have some hard, physical evidence of a particular spec being overpowered. and that evidence should be presented to the players so that we understand why changes are being made. communication is an amazing tool. its a shame bioware chooses not to utilize it.

 

Shared Spec =/= AC Spec..

It really is players like you that call things like Rage spec, Juggernaut doing fine dps..

There are perks to ACs going down the shared tree.

There are slight changes between ACs and the shared tree.

The shared tree is a SHARED TREE.

Not a Powertech/Assassin/Juggernaut tree.

 

So what you're saying is.

"X class can do great dps! You just have to use the tree that isn't unique to the advanced class!" ...

That's the same old familiar backed into a corner.

You want to do good dps in pvp as X class, you have to go X spec..

 

I have no reason to talk about whether or not I'm a skilled player, this has nothing to do with skill required to play something.

This has to do with the same amount of skill being applied to two things and one thing is BY FAR the clear, dominant force.

 

With tanking I was referring to pve, but I should've said that.

Once again, anyone that honestly claims that the same skill being applied to Powertech or Assassin tanking will yield the same results on a Juggernaut isn't paying attention...

They can say they are, but they really aren't.

 

All in all, my point was this:

If an advanced class has a tree unique to that advanced class, why is the tree that is only unique to the base class the better choice?

There shouldn't be such a huge difference between the PT, Sin, and Jug unique trees and the shared trees.

But there is.

[Zamm]

I would really love to do this, but I can't unfortunately, due to the lack of a character copy to the PTS.

 

I would settle for some hard information showing that PTs are doing fine, and that the heat vent mechanics aren't leading to long periods of rapid shots, or having to use rapid shots what seems like an entirely excessive amount in PvP engagements.

 

Unfortunately, there hasn't been any of that either, just people talking about their sister's friend's uncle's cousin who is on the PTS says that they're doing fine.

 

Our opinion is that the time for the ICD on PPA needs to be adjusted downward to 4.5 seconds, which is supported by math. If I'm wrong, I know that I personally wouldn't mind being shown that I'm wrong, especially if it means that our class won't have to deal w/ an even more terrible heat venting system in Pyro.

 

That is an understandable answer, but has a flaw.

If you care so much about your class, why not atleast ENGAGE in the PTS..

Even if you don't hit 50 and gear out there..

 

Here's a secret some don't realize.

 

Level 20 on PTS, Level 20 on live.

Equal gear/spec.

Compare.

 

If you like math, you don't even need to have the equal on live.

You can downscale/upscale numbers to compare to your live character.

That's some math for you.

But it requires a base accuracy derived from application, not theory.

 

The venting in pyro is great for the expected use of it.

I expect you know this, which confuses me.

 

The goal for any BH is never to max your heat out unless VH is up.

The goal is to NOT go over 35-40.

 

The higher you go, the more non-heat consuming filler need to be incorporated.

Below 35-40 you need roughly 2 non-heat consuming filler for every 30 heat spent.

This means if you hit 40 heat, you're in the danger zone without VH and you NEED to dump it with 2 fillers before building anymore.

 

The best way to go about this is to use one filler every 15-20 heat spent.

If it's all in one ability, immediately follow it with a filler.

If it's 15-20 total across two abilities, use your filler after the two.

 

There is A LOT of tact with it.

Every player is different, depending on the speed in which you hit your abilities, your priority, and your talents heat danger zones may need to be changed accordingly.

 

Its almost as if everyone assumes heat is supposed to manage itself..

You control every single aspect of your heat.

How much is spent, how much regenerates, how quickly it regenerates.

Use that.

 

-_-

Time to watch FLCL.

ily.

[LoKiei]

That is an understandable answer, but has a flaw.

If you care so much about your class, why not atleast ENGAGE in the PTS..

Even if you don't hit 50 and gear out there..

 

Here's a secret some don't realize.

 

Level 20 on PTS, Level 20 on live.

Equal gear/spec.

Compare.

 

If you like math, you don't even need to have the equal on live.

You can downscale/upscale numbers to compare to your live character.

That's some math for you.

But it requires a base accuracy derived from application, not theory.

 

The venting in pyro is great for the expected use of it.

I expect you know this, which confuses me.

 

The goal for any BH is never to max your heat out unless VH is up.

The goal is to NOT go over 35-40.

 

The higher you go, the more non-heat consuming filler need to be incorporated.

Below 35-40 you need roughly 2 non-heat consuming filler for every 30 heat spent.

This means if you hit 40 heat, you're in the danger zone without VH and you NEED to dump it with 2 fillers before building anymore.

 

The best way to go about this is to use one filler every 15-20 heat spent.

If it's all in one ability, immediately follow it with a filler.

If it's 15-20 total across two abilities, use your filler after the two.

 

There is A LOT of tact with it.

Every player is different, depending on the speed in which you hit your abilities, your priority, and your talents heat danger zones may need to be changed accordingly.

 

Its almost as if everyone assumes heat is supposed to manage itself..

You control every single aspect of your heat.

How much is spent, how much regenerates, how quickly it regenerates.

Use that.

 

-_-

Time to watch FLCL.

ily.

 

lol leveling to 20...you have 11 talent points.

 

You're not going to get anything usefull in terms of what the changes in level 50 play will be like.

Edited March 30, 2012 by LoKiei

[luxflux]

That is an understandable answer, but has a flaw.

If you care so much about your class, why not atleast ENGAGE in the PTS..

Even if you don't hit 50 and gear out there..

 

Here's a secret some don't realize.

 

Level 20 on PTS, Level 20 on live.

Equal gear/spec.

Compare.

 

If you like math, you don't even need to have the equal on live.

You can downscale/upscale numbers to compare to your live character.

That's some math for you.

But it requires a base accuracy derived from application, not theory.

 

The venting in pyro is great for the expected use of it.

I expect you know this, which confuses me.

 

The goal for any BH is never to max your heat out unless VH is up.

The goal is to NOT go over 35-40.

 

The higher you go, the more non-heat consuming filler need to be incorporated.

Below 35-40 you need roughly 2 non-heat consuming filler for every 30 heat spent.

This means if you hit 40 heat, you're in the danger zone without VH and you NEED to dump it with 2 fillers before building anymore.

 

The best way to go about this is to use one filler every 15-20 heat spent.

If it's all in one ability, immediately follow it with a filler.

If it's 15-20 total across two abilities, use your filler after the two.

 

There is A LOT of tact with it.

Every player is different, depending on the speed in which you hit your abilities, your priority, and your talents heat danger zones may need to be changed accordingly.

 

Its almost as if everyone assumes heat is supposed to manage itself..

You control every single aspect of your heat.

How much is spent, how much regenerates, how quickly it regenerates.

Use that.

 

-_-

Time to watch FLCL.

ily.

 

I lol'd. Clearly you're not a troll and are enamored with yourself. This and the previous post of yours are pure babble. Your class balance lecture is completely off base and was already crushed above, which you chose to ignore. Your PTS suggestion is really so poor I'm not really sure how you feel it's relevant(level 20? I had a moment of silence before loling). And then a lecture on heat mechanics which really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. All while maintaining an arrogant paternal tone. Bravo! Plenty of people in this thread understand this game at a much higher level than yourself, and the tone of your posts just causes spontaneous outbursts of lol at it's levels of faill. If you have nice paragraphs and decent grammatical command, try not to confuse that with a logical argument. I bet your posts sound awesome to you when you read them, but the logic is so terrible. Hard science major > English major? lol....

 

But yeah, I unsubbed due to this. Not so much because of the change, but BW communication is so poor and the topics they choose to respond to first (priorities are whacked out) makes me not want to see what the future holds. Hope they turn it around, I enjoy this game.

[Zamm]

I lol'd. Clearly you're not a troll and are enamored with yourself. This and the previous post..

 

Read the post above this and deemed the rest pointless to read..

I didn't really el oh el, but that's because I need to take a piss.

 

Something about level 20 yielding 11 talent points?

It was an example, you taking it to the letter probably means you didn't even know how easily you could get to 30+ when the WZs were giving you just about 50% to 75% a level per win...............

 

11 talent points provides the ability to test anything that is unlocked by level 20 or in those areas of the tree..

You may then test it on the level 20 you created on live that is in equal gear..

 

If things are the same, it doesn't matter if you're level 20 or level 50..

If an ability has an average damage of 100 on your live character, and on the PTS you're finding out the average damage is calculating to 200...

Well there you go.

 

You just found out that ability is stronger on the PTS.

 

The real math comes in if you want specifics.

If you want to test an ability you can have by level 20 and know how it will be by level 50.

 

You compare the 20 PTS to the 50 Live.

You use the formula that determines damage of the ability.

This formula changes depending on your stats and level obviously.

That's why you can easily find the formula somewhere like Sith Warrior, there the formula is provided with expressions instead of specific numbers so that you can crunch them yourself and to your specific stats.

 

Was that so hard?

 

Now.

Once again.

I love you.

Not enough love here.

) : -

[MatchpointServe]

Agreed.

[cashogy]

Shared Spec =/= AC Spec..

It really is players like you that call things like Rage spec, Juggernaut doing fine dps..

There are perks to ACs going down the shared tree.

There are slight changes between ACs and the shared tree.

The shared tree is a SHARED TREE.

Not a Powertech/Assassin/Juggernaut tree.

 

So what you're saying is.

"X class can do great dps! You just have to use the tree that isn't unique to the advanced class!" ...

That's the same old familiar backed into a corner.

You want to do good dps in pvp as X class, you have to go X spec..

 

I have no reason to talk about whether or not I'm a skilled player, this has nothing to do with skill required to play something.

This has to do with the same amount of skill being applied to two things and one thing is BY FAR the clear, dominant force.

 

With tanking I was referring to pve, but I should've said that.

Once again, anyone that honestly claims that the same skill being applied to Powertech or Assassin tanking will yield the same results on a Juggernaut isn't paying attention...

They can say they are, but they really aren't.

 

All in all, my point was this:

If an advanced class has a tree unique to that advanced class, why is the tree that is only unique to the base class the better choice?

There shouldn't be such a huge difference between the PT, Sin, and Jug unique trees and the shared trees.

But there is.

 

hate to break it to you but you undermined your entire argument in your first sentence.

 

pyrotech is a shared AC tree, just like rage is a shared AC tree.

 

i would love for a dev to post in this thread and explain why they made these changes in the first place. whatever metric they used would certainly be interesting to learn about, and knowing how it works we could probably give them better data to use.

 

but the longer they keep it a super duper secret, the more likely it is theyre just talking out their butts. the general population drives the nerfs. its happened to Operatives 3 times now, and now its happening to Pyrotech.

[carjohnrod]

bump bump

[Aaoogaa]

Guess bioware realized that tying a heat reduction talent with burst damage without a cooldown was a poor ides. Maybe if they seperated the heat talent from the burst damage allowing you to railshot chance once every 6 seconds but allow the heat reduction to occur more often would make you happy? I doubt it though.