Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[busterbone]

This post aims to clear up a lot of the misinformation surrounding the proposed 1.2 changes to the Bounty Hunter Pyrotech specialization (and Trooper Assault Specialist). I believe the proposed changes are poorly designed, and in the following paragraphs I will do my best to explain why I have come to this conclusion. I’ve posted this in the PvP forums because the Pyrotech changes are largely due to PvP concerns.

 

Firstly, for non-Pyrotechs, I will describe the abilities these patch notes affect so that you can understand what is going on:

 

Rail Shot:

 

Rail Shot is a Pyrotech’s hardest hitting ability. Through talents Rail Shot ignores 90% of the target’s armor, and through the PvP 4 piece set bonus Rail Shot gains an additional 15% chance to crit. In full PvP gear Rail Shot usually hits for 1.5-2k and crits for 3.5-4k damage. Rail Shot has a 15 second cooldown and costs 16 heat (Bounty Hunters have 100 heat total), but through talents Rail Shot refunds 8 heat, bringing the total cost to 8 heat. Targets must be suffering from periodic damage to be hit by Rail Shot.

 

Prototype Particle Accelerator:

 

PPA is one of the most important talents to a Pyrotech because it can reset the cooldown on Rail Shot as well as make Rail Shot free. Currently Flame Burst (a damage ability that costs 16 heat) has a 30% chance to proc PPA, and Rocket Punch (a melee damage ability that costs 16 heat and has a 9 second cooldown) has a 45% chance to proc PPA. PPA is the main way Pyrotechs vent heat (besides normal regen), because the PPA proc essentially makes Rail shot vent 8 heat instead of costing 8 heat.

 

Pyrotech Rotation:

 

A Pyrotech’s damage rotation consists of using Rail Shot as much as possible, and using Rocket Punch and Flame Burst to fish for more Rail Shot procs through PPA. The other main abilities used are Thermal Detonator (a single target ability on a 15 second cooldown, hits for a little less than Rail Shot) and the auto-attack Rapid Shots (~400 damage).

 

PPA makes for an interesting relationship between a Pyrotech’s damage output and heat management; a relationship that is the inverse of what most other classes have. What I mean is that PPA procs both substantially increases a Pyrotech’s damage output as well as substantially helping heat ventilation. Meaning a Pyrotech either deals high damage and has great heat management, or deals low damage and has major heat problems (depending on the amount of PPA procs during the fight). This is the opposite of other classes, where a player can either be efficient and deal less damage, or burn through their resources to deal high damage. Frankly, this is not a good design. It leads to large disparities in damage from one fight to the next.

 

Bioware is attempting to fix this problem in 1.2 through the following change: The chance to trigger Prototype Particle Accelerator has been increased significantly but cannot trigger more than once every 6 seconds. When Bioware says “the chance to trigger this effect has been increased significantly”, it has been found that they mean PPA now has a 45% chance to proc from Flame Burst (+15%) and a 60% chance to proc from Rocket Punch (+15%).

 

This change is aimed to reduce the amount of burst damage a Pyrotech can output (which makes sense). For example, currently “if the stars align” a Pyrotech can get three PPA procs in a row, which can do around 10k damage from Rail Shot damage alone. Coupled with other damage sources, such as Thermal Detonator (4k if crit) plus the damage abilities that proc PPA, Pyrotechs can deal massive amounts of damage in a short amount of time.

 

Currently, the actual chance of three PPA procs in a row is, assuming 1 Rocket Punch and 2 Flame Bursts, 0.45 * 0.30 * 0.30 = 0.04 or a 4% chance. Although this is a rare case, it still occurs and so it makes sense for Bioware to want to change PPA to make this burst not possible.

 

Bioware’s change to PPA is a step in the right direction, because it attempts to normalize the damage and heat ventilation by adding an internal cooldown to PPA. I say it is only a step in the right direction because Bioware for some reason left the RNG proc chance on PPA after adding on the internal cooldown. Bioware is basically making it so there is NO CHANCE to get the “good”/”stars align” RNG, and yet merely REDUCING the chance to get the “bad” RNG. Bioware, if you make it so there is NO CHANCE to get the good RNG, you have to make it so there is NO CHANCE to get the bad RNG.

 

The proposed 1.2 change to PPA will also have a large negative impact Pyrotech heat management (as will be shown further down). From what I gather from the patch notes, I believe Bioware intends to nerf Pyrotech burst (which is justifiable), but also keep Pyrotech overall DPS the same (or perhaps a slight nerf). I honestly believe Bioware does not realize just how much this 1.2 change will nerf Pyrotech heat management, and thus they do not realize how much 1.2 will nerf Pyrotech overall DPS.

 

In order to prove my point the following damage numbers will be used:

 

Rail Shot average damage: 2450

 

35% chance to crit RS, 1750 average normal hit, 3750 average crit = 0.65*1750+0.35*3750 = 2450

 

Flame Burst average damage: 1120

 

20% chance to crit, 1000 average normal hit, 1600 average crit = 0.8*1000+0.2*1600 = 1120

 

Rocket Punch average damage: 1120

 

20% chance to crit, 1000 average normal hit, 1600 average crit = 0.8*1000+0.2*1600 = 1120

 

Note:

 

The exact values of these numbers doesn’t really matter because the damage of these attacks isn’t being changed in the patch, and I will be only comparing the relative damage and efficiencies of these attacks.

 

By dividing the damage of Flame Burst and Rocket Punch by their respective heat costs (16 heat each) we can calculate the damage per heat (DPH) of each move:

Flame Burst DPH = 1120 / 16 = 70

Rocket Punch DPH = 1120 / 16 = 70

 

However, PPA changes these values because a PPA proc adds Rail Shot damage to the ability for free (in fact, even better than free because it refunds heat). Therefore PPA procs both increase the damage and reduce the heat cost of each move when PPA procs. Because a Flame Burst has a 30% chance to proc a free Rail Shot, by adding 0.3*Rail-Shot-damage to our Flame Burst we can calculate the “effective damage” of Flame Burst:

Flame Burst effective damage = 1120 + 0.3 * 2450 = 1855

Rocket Punch effective damage = 1120 + 0.45 * 2450 = 2223

 

This can also be applied to calculate the “effective heat cost” of both attacks:

Flame Burst effective heat cost = 16 – 0.3 * 8 = 13.6 effective heat

Rocket Punch effective heat cost = 16 – 0.45 * 8 = 12.4 effective heat

 

Therefore, the PPA talent changes the damage per heat of each ability to:

Flame Burst effective DPH = 1855/13.6 = 136

Rocket Punch effective DPH = 2223/12.4 = 179

 

In summation, without the PPA talent the damage per heat of Flame Burst and Rocket Punch are both 70. With PPA the damage per heat of Flame Burst rises to 136 and the damage per heat of Rocket Punch rises to 179.

 

As you can see, PPA doubles the efficiency of Flame Burst and multiplies the efficiency of Rocket Punch by 2.5. The important thing to take from this is that, after the 1.2 changes, any Flame Burst or Rocket Punch while the 6 second internal cooldown is occurring will be using the efficiency of the ability as if the PPA talent was not taken. In other words the efficiency of each ability while the internal cooldown is active is greatly decreased.

 

Bioware is “offsetting” this nerf by increasing the PPA chance by 15%. This increases the effective DPH of a Flame Burst/Rocket Punch (while PPA is off cooldown) to:

Flame Burst effective DPH = 2223/12.4 = 179

Rocket Punch effective DPH = 2590/11.2 = 231

 

What this means is that, in 1.2, a Rocket Punch that can proc PPA is 231/70 = 3.3 TIMES more efficient than a Rocket Punch that cannot proc it. A Flame Burst is 179/70 = 2.55 TIMES more efficient than a Flame Burst that cannot proc PPA. Thus any Rocket Punch or Flame Burst used while the 6 second PPA internal cooldown is active will be horribly inefficient. This will force Pyrotechs to do a LOT more auto-attacking (Rapid Shots) during the internal cooldown. Rapid Shots deals about 400 damage. I think it is pretty clear that going from a rotation that comprised of 1855 effective damage Flame Blasts and 2223 effective damage Rocket Punches, to a rotation that will contain multiple 6-second lapses of mostly auto-attacks is a severe DPS decrease. Nerfing the burst Pyrotechs could deal is perfectly all right with me, but in addition to that severely nerfing the overall DPS of the Pyrotechs is simply overboard.

 

 

This proposed 1.2 change also brings about many “smaller” issues, such as the problem of: How are we the players going to track the internal cooldown? As shown previously, Flame Bursts and Rocket Punches made while the internal cooldown is occuring are incredibly inefficient, and so knowing exactly when the cooldown is up is going to be very important if one wishes to maximize damage output. I hope Bioware doesn’t expect us to count in our heads to exactly 6 seconds every time we get the proc.

 

Another issue is that any Flame Burst / Rocket Punch made while Rail Shot is off cooldown (for example opening the fight with Flame Burst, or using Flame Burst for the slow) has a good chance of triggering PPA, thus wasting the Rail Shot reset and incurring the 6 second cooldown. As said earlier, Rail Shot requires a damage-over-time on the target in order to be used, and so currently many Pyrotechs favored opening the fight with Flame Burst (for the 100% chance to proc a 6 second DoT) rather than using the costly 25 heat Incendiary Missile DoT. Post-1.2 this will no longer be an option because it is too risky to open a fight with Flame Burst and start the internal cooldown.

 

 

Here are some proposed changes to the 1.2 patch notes that will hopefully help to fix the problems the current patch notes will bring to the Pyrotech spec.

 

1) Make Rocket Punch / Flame Burst have a 100% chance to proc PPA outside of the global cooldown. This solves the issue brought up earlier, where with the 1.2 change you are essentially making it so we have no chance for “good RNG”, and yet leaving the chance for “bad RNG”. RNG procs with internal cooldowns are bad.

 

-and/or-

 

2) Greatly increase auto-attack (Rapid Shots) damage. If you want to force us to use auto attacks a lot more, in order to offset this large DPS decrease you will need to greatly increase the damage of the auto-attack. This also helps to offset the problem Pyrotechs currently have, where if you get high on heat you literally have to use auto-attack for 20 seconds to get back to low heat levels (because the higher heat you are the worse heat ventilation you get).

 

-or-

 

3) Completely change PPA to reduce the cooldown of Rail Shot to 6 seconds and make Rail Shot free all the time. This solves the issue of tracking the internal cooldown (there will be no internal cooldown). This also makes it so that our damage output as well as heat management is very stable.

 

-or-

 

4) Change the PPA internal cooldown to 4.5 seconds. See this post (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370674) for more details.

 

-and-

 

5)

If you decide to keep the internal cooldown, as said before it will be important when the cooldown ends. Perhaps a 6-second buff whenever PPA procs could help with this issue.

Edit: You an ignore this suggestion. After further discussion in this thread with other people, they've brought up the point that because Bioware hasn't done this for any other classes' internal cooldowns they probably won't start here.

 

Feel free to propose alternative changes, discuss the changes I have here, and discuss the 1.2 Pyrotech changes in general.

Edited March 21, 2012 by busterbone
Additional suggestions

[Nextjenn]

Very well thought out post. At first I thought for sure us Pyrotechs were getting off light as far as being nerfed is concerned... Now I realize that's not quite the case... Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I hope Bio makes some changes to stop this from being such a negative change.

[busterbone]

Very well thought out post. At first I thought for sure us Pyrotechs were getting off light as far as being nerfed is concerned... Now I realize that's not quite the case... Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I hope Bio makes some changes to stop this from being such a negative change.

 

Yea, I feel like Bioware doesn't realize just how much this will affect Pyrotech damage. From my understanding of the patch notes Bioware intends to reduce our burst damage but try to keep our overall DPS the same (known as "spreading out" burst damage). However, their proposed change will simply remove our burst in addition to greatly reducing our overall DPS.

[Bocherel]

Bioware fully realize this already but you are not playing a popular spec/class therefor they balance it accordingly to not frustrate the majority of people playing jedi/sith. The nerf is working as intend and i feel sorry you spent time to explain what BW already know.

[busterbone]

Bioware fully realize this already but you are not playing a popular spec/class therefor they balance it accordingly to not frustrate the majority of people playing jedi/sith. The nerf is working as intend and i feel sorry you spent time to explain what BW already know.

 

Hopefully Bioware doesn't balance the game that way. And even if there is just a small percent chance someone from Bioware reads this and thinks about it, then I think the time I spent writing this was well worth it.

[Bnol]

More predictable damage is preferred by good players, and this is what PT Pyro is getting with these changes. You will only have 3 GCDs (4.5 seconds as the other 1.5 will be the Rail Shot you use on proc) in which PPA will not benefit you, and you should be able to track 3 GCDs. Good PTs will utilize other abilities during the PPA ICD to manage heat and maximize dps.

 

These changes are thought out to keep some fluidity in the rotation to make things interesting without too much random feast/famine scenarios. The changes are good because it actually raises the skillcap on PT Pyro.

[Poulay]

The nerf is way too big...It's ridiculous. gonna leave this game if it goes live. That's it.

[Jrovak]

you will not be able to use AIon gas cylinder anymore with APP ( wont proc with aion cylinde only combustible cylinder)which makes yu choose between full tanking tree or pyro full dps with some ap THROWN THERE for both build.

dunno id yu mentioned that I didnt see it .

 

yu will not be anle to run SHtec along with pyro anymore that imo is the real nerf.

nicely presented however I am doubtfull they even care what you think they busy giving away stuff and nerfbating randomly to keep subs..

Edited March 21, 2012 by Jrovak

[busterbone]

More predictable damage is preferred by good players, and this is what PT Pyro is getting with these changes.

 

I agree, more predictable damage is preferred.

 

You will only have 3 GCDs (4.5 seconds as the other 1.5 will be the Rail Shot you use on proc) in which PPA will not benefit you, and you should be able to track 3 GCDs.

 

What if right after PPA procs you get stunned? In order to know how many globals you have before the internal cooldown wears off you will need to subtract the exact duration of the stun from 6, subtract an additional 1.5 seconds for the Rail Shot you are about to cast, then divide this number by 1.5 and round down to determine how many globals you can't cast Flame Burst/Rocket Punch. This is if you want to maximize damage.

 

What if you get line-of-sighted for x amount of seconds, and so you can't judge the time passed by how many globals you've used? In order to maximize damage we will need to know exactly when the cooldown is up.

 

Good PTs will utilize other abilities during the PPA ICD to manage heat and maximize dps.

 

Other abilities? If Thermal Detonator is on cooldown the only other damage ability left is auto-attack, which hits for pathetic damage. This is obviously a large DPS decrease.

 

These changes are thought out to keep some fluidity in the rotation to make things interesting without too much random feast/famine scenarios. The changes are good because it actually raises the skillcap on PT Pyro.

 

I'm all for making the rotation fluid and raising the skillcap on PT Pyro, I just don't think the current fix is the best way to accomplish this.

[busterbone]

you will not be able to use AIon gas cylinder anymore with APP ( wont proc with aion cylinde only combustible cylinder)which makes yu choose between full tanking tree or pyro full dps with some ap THROWN THERE for both build.

dunno id yu mentioned that I didnt see it .

 

yu will not be anle to run SHtec along with pyro anymore that imo is the real nerf.

nicely presented however I am doubtfull they even care what you think they busy giving away stuff and nerfbating randomly to keep subs..

 

I agree I will definitely miss the Jet Charge / Pyrotech hybrid spec. However this post is aimed specifically at how the 1.2 patch is affecting deep Pyrotech builds.

[Gankdalf_]

I will give you another reason why they are poorly thought out. I know some BH who are no longer player this game due to the changes that are coming in 1.2.

[Frankenstairs]

I will give you another reason why they are poorly thought out. I know some BH who are no longer player this game due to the changes that are coming in 1.2.

 

People getting butt hurt and leaving doesn't mean something is poorly thought out.

[Bnol]

What if right after PPA procs you get stunned? In order to know how many globals you have before the internal cooldown wears off you will need to subtract the exact duration of the stun from 6, subtract an additional 1.5 seconds for the Rail Shot you are about to cast, then divide this number by 1.5 and round down to determine how many globals you can't cast Flame Burst/Rocket Punch. This is if you want to maximize damage.

 

What if you get line-of-sighted for x amount of seconds, and so you can't judge the time passed by how many globals you've used? In order to maximize damage we will need to know exactly when the cooldown is up.

 

Mezs are 8 sec, standard stuns are 4 seconds, carbonize is 2.5 (3 with set), jarring strike knockdown is 3 sec, force push and spike knockdown is 2 sec. Knowing these durations, and mentally counting GCDs is part of the skill. No other class knows their ICDs and a lot of classes have them. PT Pyro must now deal with it.

 

 

Other abilities? If Thermal Detonator is on cooldown the only other damage ability left is auto-attack, which hits for pathetic damage. This is obviously a large DPS decrease.

 

Utilizing auto-attack, thermal det, DFA (I understand this is a target of opportunity thing, but you can force a carbonize--> DFA) within that window will net you more damage than someone who doesn't, again raising the skill cap of the class.

 

I'm all for making the rotation fluid and raising the skillcap on PT Pyro, I just don't think the current fix is the best way to accomplish this.

 

Your suggestions are:

 

Showing the ICD (which no class gets)

100% proc (which dumbs down the class even more than it is)

6 second rail shot CD (see above)

 

Only showing the ICD keeps the rotation more fluid, but it also lowers the skill cap.

[Jrovak]

when I saw the changes I went and respec full Pyeo using COmbustible cyl insteaf of aion gas cyl the aion gas as normal

The difference in survivibility is huge.

 

with aion gas cyl I proc shield with combustible i dont. this makes APP irrelevent you are dead bfr anything procs . I bet that as soon as they see yu on a healer at 1'2 they alpha yu as soon as you start hiting him

I am not even sure deep Pyro is still viable ib 1.2 pvp

AP is just terribad

leaves us with deep Shield tech which does provide some 3k+ rocket punches and a survivibility,

yu can hit healers all day and really take some punishment while focusing them

In upcoming ranked WZ with jet leaping ability and quell on a 4 to 6 sec CD talent yu can pretty much shut down a healer while your team kill the opposition.

food for thought

[warkat]

If you dont think Pyrotech's needed to be toned down then you failed to maximize your dmg...Guildy Vanguard does 600-900k every voidstar and like 500k-600k alderrans..balanced i know especially when he can pop a shield that absorbs a truckload of dmg. And you show math all non crits to make it look like you dont dish out the mass dmg Edited March 21, 2012 by warkat

[Fdzzaigl]

Great post, I believe this fragment is central to the whole issue:

 

Bioware’s change to PPA is a step in the right direction, because it attempts to normalize the damage and heat ventilation by adding an internal cooldown to PPA. I say it is only a step in the right direction because Bioware for some reason left the RNG proc chance on PPA after adding on the internal cooldown. Bioware is basically making it so there is NO CHANCE to get the “good”/”stars align” RNG, and yet merely REDUCING the chance to get the “bad” RNG. Bioware, if you make it so there is NO CHANCE to get the good RNG, you have to make it so there is NO CHANCE to get the bad RNG.

 

When I first saw the changes, I was like: "Ok, less complaints about lucky burst, more stable burst now and then, good.".

 

Then I heard the "significant increase" in proc chance was only 15% and I was like "What??!! So they keep the bad luck and just nerf the good luck, farging us up in both PvP and PvE."

 

If you're trying to nerf RNG, frakking nerf the RNG that screws us over as well.

 

If you dont think Pyrotech's needed to be toned down then you failed to maximize your dmg...Guildy Vanguard does 600-900k every voidstar and like 500k-600k alderrans..balanced i know especially when he can pop a shield that absorbs a truckload of dmg. And you show math all non crits to make it look like you dont dish out the mass dmg

 

Shield doesn't absorb damage, it reduces damage by 25% for 15s every 2 minutes.

Most classes have better defensive cooldowns than that.

 

Good players put out good damage, I see sages, sentinels, shadows and operatives putting out those numbers as well.

 

I also call ******** on 600-900k every voidstar.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[RealAeiouy]

When you test all these changes on ptr how much more often are you overheating compared to live?

[RealAeiouy]

I will give you another reason why they are poorly thought out. I know some BH who are no longer player this game due to the changes that are coming in 1.2.

 

I love people who play above average classes for months then claim they will quit if they are reduced. Can't really design an mmog by extortion so devs pretty much have to say see you later.

 

If those bhs want to help they can roll on test and provide feedback. So many things have changed that it is worthless to guess the impact of any changes on paper.

[me_unknown]

More predictable damage is preferred by good players, and this is what PT Pyro is getting with these changes. You will only have 3 GCDs (4.5 seconds as the other 1.5 will be the Rail Shot you use on proc) in which PPA will not benefit you,...

 

this is not true. you assunme you get your procc immediately after the 6s internal cd. but with a 45% proc chance this is not the case, not even with the 60% of the rocket punch/stock strike which you can't spam as it has a long cd on its own.

 

edit: i am neither defending nor battleing these changes. i do not know how dramatic they are or not.

Edited March 21, 2012 by me_unknown

[Bocherel]

Hopefully Bioware doesn't balance the game that way. And even if there is just a small percent chance someone from Bioware reads this and thinks about it, then I think the time I spent writing this was well worth it.

 

Sadly thats what greg zoeller admitted to do. Check the thread about it.

[Bnol]

this is not true. you assunme you get your procc immediately after the 6s internal cd. but with a 45% proc chance this is not the case, not even with the 60% of the rocket punch/stock strike which you can't spam as it has a long cd on its own.

 

edit: i am neither defending nor battleing these changes. i do not know how dramatic they are or not.

 

Obviously, you aren't getting a proc every 6 seconds. I was talking about his heat-to-damage calculations when PPA is on its ICD, hence why I said it is only 4.5 seconds (at max) when PPA is not benefiting you (compared to now).

Edited March 21, 2012 by Bnol

[drduncan]

Bioware fully realize this already but you are not playing a popular spec/class therefor they balance it accordingly to not frustrate the majority of people playing jedi/sith. The nerf is working as intend and i feel sorry you spent time to explain what BW already know.

 

Sadly... as a scoundrel since release.... I feel this is the real reason.

 

Any class/spec combination that is a real hard counter to the more popular lightstick classes seem to be getting nerfed.

 

The funny part is, the people I know on my server that play stuff like pyro powertech and the remaining ops/scoundrels are still very good players and will most likely still dominate no matter how much they nerf the non-force users in the game.

 

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

[Peytona]

If you dont think Pyrotech's needed to be toned down then you failed to maximize your dmg...Guildy Vanguard does 600-900k every voidstar and like 500k-600k alderrans..balanced i know especially when he can pop a shield that absorbs a truckload of dmg. And you show math all non crits to make it look like you dont dish out the mass dmg

 

My Boyfriend's sister's cousin plays a Vanguard and hits 1mill every Voidstar.

 

Also holds down left and right on Alderaan solo, while healing everyone at mid with Adrenaline Rush and popping his crazy absorb bubble if he gets into trouble.

 

 

Back to the real world, the OP states several times that he agrees that PTs burst capabilities needed to be toned down. However, the proposed changes in 1.2 are laughably severe.

 

Also, crits are taken into account in the math posted.

[Bocherel]

Sadly... as a scoundrel since release.... I feel this is the real reason.

 

Any class/spec combination that is a real hard counter to the more popular lightstick classes seem to be getting nerfed.

 

The funny part is, the people I know on my server that play stuff like pyro powertech and the remaining ops/scoundrels are still very good players and will most likely still dominate no matter how much they nerf the non-force users in the game.

 

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

 

Well this IS the real reason, you could not be more right. Greg Zoeller admitted they nerfs classes based on how much they think it will bring them money which means if you play an unpopular class prepare to get nerfed even more.

[NevesNET]

My Boyfriend's sister's cousin plays a Vanguard and hits 1mill every Voidstar.

 

I think I went to school with that guy!

 

Post needs fix, as it's talking about Pyro on Powertech; which, did need a tone down. Marauder however, the strongest 1v1 pvp in game, didn't need any buffs, it's just ridiculous.