Healers be happy - No nerf in pvp

[Kabaal]

There's a video posted from the PTS somewhere that shows the character sheet on there now that the DR has been changed on Expertise, if i'm remembering right mitigation didn't get the same increase as healing and DPS. Edited March 19, 2012 by Kabaal

[navotjr]

Your missing the fact that they are removing the no cost to health benefit for power increase. That is now gone, without that, we will be without power withing 2 minutes of constant healing, what made healers more tough then anything was ability to noble sacrifice without losing health as a cost for more power for casting. Now that this is removed, you will not have to worry. Healers will be out of juice rather quickly and you are good to go. That imo opinion as a healer is the biggest change that affects our class more then anything.....we will be OOM, pardon the old expression way to quickly:)

[Tenndou]

Your missing the fact that they are removing the no cost to health benefit for power increase. That is now gone, without that, we will be without power withing 2 minutes of constant healing, what made healers more tough then anything was ability to noble sacrifice without losing health as a cost for more power for casting. Now that this is removed, you will not have to worry. Healers will be out of juice rather quickly and you are good to go. That imo opinion as a healer is the biggest change that affects our class more then anything.....we will be OOM, pardon the old expression way to quickly:)

 

ye just like the other 2 healers --> balance healers arent supposed to heal endlessly hence the nerf to commando ammo reg as well

[Dudious]

You really dont have a clue do you ?

 

Higher expertise scaling is a BUFF to healers...

 

Here it is.. nice and simple.

 

Healer A has a 25% Expertise Bonus

DPS B Has a 25 % Expertise bonus

 

 

DPS does 25% more dmg.

Healer Takes 25% less damage. Expertise the DPS has is mitigated..

 

but wait! theres more... Healer still gets 25% healing increase ontop of it, that the DPS cannot mitigate by doing more damage from expertise.

 

/Facepalm.

 

Try re-reading and actually comprehending what I wrote.

[Grubfist]

I like the fact that everyone cry about a healing nerf, when healing has received a 15% healing buff in pvp.

 

Expertise now has less DR, and with a full War hero set, you sit on 23-24% healing increase. Good good, you now are unkillable!

 

Interesting. Good to know their changes aren't crushing healers, but adapting to new gear levels.

 

Thanks for the info! I'm bad at teh maths.

[Grubfist]

dark infusion is a 2.5k cast, so not worth it in PvP

 

You are a silly, silly person who does not understand that healing is about predicting damage and acting before it happens.

 

Healing is pro-active in this game, not reactive. Sorc/sage especially. It's like a flowing art and it's damn fun.

[Varicite]

Higher expertise scaling is not a buff to healers. Bigger heals/bigger damage cancel out, and then everyone gets more mitigation. What this means is that while healers are going to be relatively less effective (due to class nerfs), they won't need to be as effective as before for the group as a whole to have the same survivability (due to new expertise scaling).

 

Essentially, healer nerfs combined with expertise scaling adjustments mean that groups are less reliant on the healer, while the healer gets to feel less effective, and more frustrated with their character.

 

Obviously I can see how non-healers like this... as a healer, it kinda blows.

 

I think your logic is wrong on the expertise changes. I understand it that bigger damage and bigger mitigation cancel eachother out, and then healers get more healing. You see, both healing AND mitigation work against damage, not just one of them.

 

If I hit you 20% harder, but you take 20% less damage, that is a net 0 gain. Then if you add 20% healing on top of it, that's a 20% increase. (20 - 20) + 20 = 20.

 

I'm not saying you guys won't be nerfed in PvP, or QQing that healers will be "SO STRONG OMG", but the expertise changes do benefit healers over dps, and heal-capable dps most of all.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite

[Khoraji]

I like the fact that everyone cry about a healing nerf, when healing has received a 15% healing buff in pvp.

 

Expertise now has less DR, and with a full War hero set, you sit on 23-24% healing increase. Good good, you now are unkillable!

 

You realize expertise effects DPS classes too right?

[Dudious]

I think your logic is wrong on the expertise changes. I understand it that bigger damage and bigger mitigation cancel eachother out, and then healers get more healing. You see, both healing AND mitigation work against damage, not just one of them.

 

If I hit you 20% harder, but you take 20% less damage, that is a net 0 gain. Then if you add 20% healing on top of it, that's a 20% increase. (20 - 20) + 20 = 20.

 

I'm not saying you guys won't be nerfed in PvP, or QQing that healers will be "SO STRONG OMG", but the expertise changes do benefit healers over dps, and heal-capable dps most of all.

 

I'm glad you actually understood what I wrote. (I think).

 

First, I am not totally sure on this because I have yet to read a blog/post about it, or get some numbers and figure it out, but:

 

No expertise

DPS hits for 100 damage.

Healer heals for 100 healing.

0 mitigated.

 

10% expertise on all players

DPS outputs 100*1.1 = 110 damage.

Healer heals for 100*1.1 = 110 healing.

110*0.1 = 11 mitigated.

 

The result is that the survivability of whoever is being hit is increased by 11 effective hit points as a result of both players having 10% expertise.

Note: This doesn't "benefit the healer" unless the healer is the one being hit. It makes it easier for the healer to keep the group alive, so you could say that this is a benefit to the healer, but in reality it's a benefit to the group as a whole. The healer is still going to be working just as hard to get heals off, or if not needed, provide some damage or CC.

 

I am assuming that this is the order in which the damage/mitigation is calculated. If there is a formula that examines the relative level of expertise between two players and then calculates damage based on that then the above is wrong: please correct me if you have evidence to prove this.

 

This is what it would look like if I am wrong on the calculation order

DPS attacks a player with 10% expertise. Player being attacked has 10% expertise. Server calculates that the two levels of expertise net out, that is 10% - 10%.

 

This means the damage done is 100, but the healing done is 110 so the 10% expertise on both players increases the survivability of the player being hit by 10 effective hit points.

 

In conclusion, as expertise % goes up across all players, the survivability of every player goes up. This doesn't "benefit the healer" directly, it simply means it's a bit easier for them to keep people alive because less overall healing is needed.

 

In my first post in this thread I said that healers were nerfed (two of the classes that is: Mercs and Sorcs) which means their characters are less effective than before. Or worded differently and examining each factor in a vacuum: Mercs and Sorcs abilities either heal for less, cost more to use, or take longer to cast. Because of the change in expertise scaling, everyone as a whole will have more survivability... but that benefits everyone. It doesn't make it a buff to healers like the OP is claiming.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dudious

[Xerain]

So all damage is increased 23-24% as well...with extensive nerfs to healing interrupts become even more important. I see TTKs dropping drastically with these changes...not a good time to be a healer.

 

No it's not if you look at expertise there... if someone has 24% they have 24% more damage, damage reduction, and increased healing. If someone else has 24% it negates the damage and damage reduction thus only giving increased healing.

[Frisemort]

Expertise won't help my merc not overheating in two cast.

 

Next.

[Astarica]

I don't understand why there's all this complain about healers when there is no (in theory) balance toward having more healers in one side or another. Yes I've been in plenty of games with no healers and that does suck but that's life. Stacking healer is not even a good idea in most maps and as long as you've one and well-protected you'll usually be fine.

[Rheeling]

I'll wait to see how this plays out before I really get hot and bothered about anything.

 

What I'm really curious about regarding "healing" in general, is whether or not the Sniper/Gunslinger healing debuff they'll be receiving will stack with the Marauder debuff as well. That will be interesting, and I'm hoping it does.

[rbvtejada]

I am wondering why people are assuming that there will be a HEAL for every damage taken? that isnt an absolute. People overlooking the fact that healers will be OOM and deal with way more interrupts (therefore less effectiveness in healing). With the nerf changes in mana consumption and tech trees, healers are nerfed. On another note, healers (esp sorcs/sages) will just have to better manage their mana and ACTUALLY look at their regeneration rate. FYI - keeping mana above 50% keeps your regeneration fast versus <50% dropping it substantially.

[Emencie]

No expertise

DPS hits for 100 damage.

Healer heals for 100 healing.

0 mitigated.

 

10% expertise on all players

DPS outputs 100*1.1 = 110 damage.

Healer heals for 100*1.1 = 110 healing.

110*0.1 = 11 mitigated.

 

I think you are missing some math in your equation there friend. If I'm correct, you are forgetting the mitigation portion It would look more like this.

 

 

No expertise

DPS hits for 100 damage.

Victim takes 100 damage.

Healer heals for 100 healing.

0 mitigated.

 

10% expertise on all players

DPS hits for 100*1.1 = 110 damage.

Victim takes 110*0.9 = 99 damage

Healer heals for 100*1.1 = 110 healing.

21 mitigated.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Emencie

[Exilim]

I'll ge to nerf healers for 9seconds with my flourish shot, muahahaa

[Dudious]

I think you are missing some math in your equation there friend. If I'm correct, you are forgetting the mitigation portion It would look more like this.

 

 

No expertise

DPS hits for 100 damage.

Victim takes 100 damage.

Healer heals for 100 healing.

0 mitigated.

 

10% expertise on all players

DPS hits for 100*1.1 = 110 damage.

Victim takes 110*0.9 = 99 damage

Healer heals for 100*1.1 = 110 healing.

21 mitigated.

 

The calculations we just did are the same unless my lack of sleep the past couple of days is playing tricks with my vision.

 

One thing - where does 21 mitigation come from? You wrote yourself: 110*.9 = 99 damage. From 110 damage output by he DPS player, that's mitigation of 11, not 21.

 

That's exactly the same as what I put, except I did it the other way around. I said: 110*0.1 = 11 mitigated. I didn't bother to go on and explain that 110-11 = 99 damage actually received. I just said that since the heal is for 110, and the damage received is 99, the overall survivability of the player being hit increases by 110-99 = 11 hp compared to the situation where both players have 0% expertise.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dudious

[Dzhokhar]

I am wondering why people are assuming that there will be a HEAL for every damage taken? that isnt an absolute. People overlooking the fact that healers will be OOM and deal with way more interrupts (therefore less effectiveness in healing). With the nerf changes in mana consumption and tech trees, healers are nerfed. On another note, healers (esp sorcs/sages) will just have to better manage their mana and ACTUALLY look at their regeneration rate. FYI - keeping mana above 50% keeps your regeneration fast versus <50% dropping it substantially.

 

Um... Sage regeneration isn't zoned like other classes. No matter how much force a Sage has, their regen rate is the same.

[EternalFinality]

Healing increases but dps does not then?

 

I dont even

 

Someone doesn't know how expertise works

[fungihoujo]

many classes also got buffed in damage.

 

Also healers, specifically sorcerers, are complaining about cast time increase, which allows for more interrupts.

 

When you get interrupted, your healing output is zero.

 

I hear 25% increase from zero is still zero.

 

I also hear if i can only heal 66% as often in 1.2, a 25% buff is still a 8% nerf.

 

but if you dont interrupt a sorc they can heal alot so they op

[Emencie]

The calculations we just did are the same unless my lack of sleep the past couple of days is playing tricks with my vision.

 

One thing - where does 21 mitigation come from? You wrote yourself: 110*.9 = 99 damage. From 110 damage output by he DPS player, that's mitigation of 11, not 21.

 

That's exactly the same as what I put, except I did it the other way around. I said: 110*0.1 = 11 mitigated. I didn't bother to go on and explain that 110-11 = 99 damage actually received. I just said that since the heal is for 110, and the damage received is 99, the overall survivability of the player being hit increases by 110-99 = 11 hp compared to the situation where both players have 0% expertise.

 

I think we are doing the same calculations actually. I was just saying there was a total (including healing) mitigation of 21 because the target took 10% less damage from the attack and was also healed for 10% more than the attack. increasing their total survivability higher than the total damage the DPS (in this scenario) can do.

 

For example.

10% expertise on all players

Victim health = 150

DPS hits for 100*1.1 = 110 damage.

Victim takes 110*0.9 = 99 damage

Victim health = 51

Victim heals for 100*1.1 = 110 healing.

Victim health = 161

 

I think this is why people are upset by Expertise. As the numbers go up healers will just become more and more powerful unless something is changed.

 

Taking the same numbers but increasing the expertise bonus

 

25% expertise on all players

Victim health = 150

DPS hits for 100*1.25 = 125 damage.

Victim takes 125*0.75 = 93.75 damage

Victim health = 56.25

Victim heals for 100*1.25 = 125 healing.

Victim health = 181.25

 

Of course this is quite simplified and in actuality the healer is likely going to be fighting off well more than 1 person at a time. But you can see why people are already worried that the expertise model is going to get out of control for healers. It already favors defense over attacking.

[Grubfist]

Um... Sage regeneration isn't zoned like other classes. No matter how much force a Sage has, their regen rate is the same.

 

Not exactly. Their base regen is the same, but they have a more active role in changing the rate of their regen.

[Dudious]

I think we are doing the same calculations actually. I was just saying there was a total (including healing) mitigation of 21 because the target took 10% less damage from the attack and was also healed for 10% more than the attack. increasing their total survivability higher than the total damage the DPS (in this scenario) can do.

 

For example.

10% expertise on all players

Victim health = 150

DPS hits for 100*1.1 = 110 damage.

Victim takes 110*0.9 = 99 damage

Victim health = 51

Victim heals for 100*1.1 = 110 healing.

Victim health = 161

 

The 21 still doesn't make sense though. We're comparing the two cases of 1) not having expertise, and 2) having 10% expertise; that's what our little conversation is about, right? When 10% expertise is the case for all players, the player who gets hit, and sequentially healed is only 11 hp better off than with 0% expertise. Your the quoted example shows this: The player starts at 150 hp, and ends up at 161 hp because everyone has 10% expertise. If everyone had 0% expertise then it would have been start at 150 hp, take 100 damage (50 hp remaining) then get healed for 100 to put the player back at 150 hp.

 

Comparing these two scenarios, 10% expertise provides 11 hp more survivability to whatever player is being hit.

 

This 11 hp, or 11% of the unmodified damage that is dealt is absolutely not a result of the benefit expertise provides to healing; it's a result of the mitigation benefit the player has from expertise. (Remember, we calculated that the benefit from healing is 10 hp, the benefit to damage is 10hp, but the benefit to mitigation is 11 hp. This where the net hp benefit is coming from - the mitigation).

 

I think this is why people are upset by Expertise. As the numbers go up healers will just become more and more powerful unless something is changed.

 

But this is where people are getting the mixed up. Heals and healers don't become anymore powerful relative to DPSers as expertise goes up. DPS and Healing both scale in direct proportion to expertise. 100% expertise means damage is doubled, and healing is doubled; the effects are identical. A healer would have their output doubled by 100% expertise just as a DPS player has their output doubled by expertise. However, because the player being hit has 100% mitigation they would actually take 0 damage.

 

Mitigation from expertise scales indirectly proportional to expertise and it is this fact that gives all players better survivability as expertise scales up. It's not that healing or healers benefit more from expertise because as I just showed, a healing ability benefits the same as a damaging ability.

 

The fact that another player has more mitigation means that any hp that player either has, or gains from a heal is more effective, but again, that's not due to the fact that a heal gets more of a bonus from expertise than a damaging ability. It's due to the design decision to make higher geared PvP encounters a little slower, presumably so that each fight doesn't seem shallow, or lacking tactical maneuvers. It allows for more strategical movments across the battlefield.

 

To demonstrate this truth, go and PvP in the 10-49 bracket. Everyone dies way too fast and it makes the PvP seem shallow - you simply can't do as much with a 10-49 team than you can with a level 50 team (even when taking into account the extra abilities trained/talent points allocated).

 

Taking the same numbers but increasing the expertise bonus

 

25% expertise on all players

Victim health = 150

DPS hits for 100*1.25 = 125 damage.

Victim takes 125*0.75 = 93.75 damage

Victim health = 56.25

Victim heals for 100*1.25 = 125 healing.

Victim health = 181.25

 

Of course this is quite simplified and in actuality the healer is likely going to be fighting off well more than 1 person at a time. But you can see why people are already worried that the expertise model is going to get out of control for healers. It already favors defense over attacking.

 

This last bolded part makes me think that we are basically thinking the same thing but are viewing it differently. I've been staunchly advocating that expertise favours survivability. Not necessarily healing because healing benefits the same amount as damage, but since there is a mitigation benefit to the expertise survivability is favoured. I also believe this is a design intention and I have outlined my reasons for that above.

 

Maybe in the future it will make PvP so slow that it starts to feel more like an RTS where a player doesn't die until 15-60mins into an engagement. That would be a problem, but for now, I am an advocate of PvP gear increasing a group's total survivability to increase the amount of strategical plays a team can make in any given encounter.

[Blotter]

I heard you have 3 castable heals on top of an AoE heal and an instant cast HoT, as well as a shield and CCs, while interrupts only lock out one spell for 4 seconds.

 

Confirm/Deny?

 

Bubble - Gone instantluy from the opening hit, even with talents...and then you're debuffed for 12 seconds if you have the gear...15 seconds if not.

 

AoE heal - Interrupted. Anyone who notices you casting this that doesn't interrupt you, cc you, start to beat on you like a runaway sisterwife in hopes it kills the cast...is terrible, especially in front of a door or by the turrets.

 

Nuke heal - Interrupted, and now with more frequent interrupts.

 

Quick heal - Waste of force...terrible force cost to heal ratio.

 

Insta-cast HoT - Can't keep up with dmg, even when stacked with the channeled HoT.

 

Channeled HoT - Can't keep up with dmg, even stacked with the insta-cast HoT.

 

We need all these tools tosynergize in order to do a good job. BW is making it far harder for them to synergize with some of these changes. LOnger cast times mean that stacking heal effects will happen less frequently and the nerf to resource management is awful.

[Emencie]

 

Comparing these two scenarios, 10% expertise provides 11 hp more survivability to whatever player is being hit. [/Quote]

 

100% right. I wasn't thinking correctly when I was counting that 21 out. You are correct on that one.

But this is where people are getting the mixed up. Heals and healers don't become anymore powerful relative to DPSers as expertise goes up. DPS and Healing both scale in direct proportion to expertise. 100% expertise means damage is doubled, and healing is doubled; the effects are identical. A healer would have their output doubled by 100% expertise just as a DPS player has their output doubled by expertise. However, because the player being hit has 100% mitigation they would actually take 0 damage.

 

Mitigation from expertise scales indirectly proportional to expertise and it is this fact that gives all players better survivability as expertise scales up. It's not that healing or healers benefit more from expertise because as I just showed, a healing ability benefits the same as a damaging ability.

...

 

This last bolded part makes me think that we are basically thinking the same thing but are viewing it differently. I've been staunchly advocating that expertise favours survivability. Not necessarily healing because healing benefits the same amount as damage, but since there is a mitigation benefit to the expertise survivability is favoured. I also believe this is a design intention and I have outlined my reasons for that above.

 

I'm not sure I agree here though because healing isn't equivalent to damage. In fact as the expertise goes up so does the gap between them widen. In the 25% example you can see this well 125% more damage is not the same as 125% healing. This would grow to 100% as well. If expertise were at 99% all around (instead of 100 because of Damage reduction ruining any damage taken at all) Healing would be near doubled but Damage wouldn't. In fact damage would be cut to almost 2% because of the Damage reduction.

 

25% expertise on all players

Victim health = 150

DPS hits for 100*1.25 = 125 damage.

Victim takes 125*0.75 = 93.75 damage

Victim health = 56.25

Victim heals for 100*1.25 = 125 healing.

Victim health = 181.25

 

the bold area shows it.

 

Of the 3 parts to expertise damage reduction is perhaps the most useful because it has a multiplicative negative effect on one of the other stats (Damage increase).

 

Because of that the DPS increase of 25% is nowhere near the HPS increase of 25% since nothing negatively effects healing.

 

The heal that healed for 100 now heals for 125

 

but the attack that hit for 100 now hits for 93.75.

 

those in no way cancel each other out.

 

Now that I think about it more I think we are saying the same exact thing. I'm just canceling out the damage with the damage reduction and then adding the heal. While you are canceling out the damage with the heal and adding the DR. (3-2)+5 = (5-2)+3

 

I suppose what it comes down to is no matter how you reorder it it all falls the same. being a healing class (with the current expertise model) will exponentially increase your survivability as expertise gets higher and higher.

 

Even without the healing increase to expertise at all. healing would still grow faster than damage.

 

25% expertise on all players without healing bonus

Victim health = 150

DPS hits for 100*1.25 = 125 damage.

Victim takes 125*0.75 = 93.75 damage

Victim health = 56.25

Victim heals for 100

Victim health = 156.25

 

I think this is what bothers me and others most. Healers (especially with the guard mechanic) are some of the hardest to kill characters in PVP if not the hardest. The increase to expertise will just make them even more durable.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Emencie