Bioware might not go through with the 6 second nerf

[Theology]

LOL at his C. point. Classic

[Xsorus]

Does my post look that noobish to you? Well, I can link you to some screenshots, but I can't bother. Let's say...If objectives didn't require me to do something different than dps...I have never been beaten in dps...Not even a single time. This includes under lvl50 bracket, in which I soloed fresh 50s starting from lvl25+. Stealthers were bad since we got that scan at 36 or smthing...

 

I don't mean to offend you, just here to help you.

 

A. How the **** did you lose TD in your rotation dude? As a pyro I use ALL my abilities...Some more than others but I use all of 'em. Every single ability has a place in my 'rotation'. And it gets me to an average of 400-600k dmg per match without sweat.

 

B. You are wasting dot dmg if you refresh it before it ends (that is, wasting dmg potential). This is the time to throw in something else. If you want to spam FB, swap targets so you dot as much as you can.

 

C. Rail is ranged (90% base accuracy), so it is in no way, the only ability that you use for dps. And it is range dependant (can't use too good when 10+ range). 0 heat, you can IM and rail, but you can't proc it (another place to do something different here). With heat, you can use sensor overrides and then IM + rail.

 

Just some quick thoughts...

 

A. I just told you in a previous post the rotation for using a Pyro is TD/FB/RS, But in general, you'll be doing either Rocketpunch or Flameburst 9/10...Hell TD itself isn't exactly all that great unless you have Railshot up for the burst potential.

 

B. No you're not.. If you're using Flameburst and Refreshing it, you constantly get the first tic, You can swap targets but generally i only do that on guarded players, and only if I'm actually burning down the tank while the other guy burns down the guarded target (If solo, you just burn the guarded target as for some reason, CGC actually applies to both targets which is hilarious)

 

C. Rail is 30 meter range, so not really sure what you're talking about here.. Generally if anyone is out of Range you'll do TD or Unload on them (Unload will proc your CGC most of the time allowing Rail shot) Or you can use Im then railshot... IM i feel is kind of wasted cause unload is just frankly better.

 

If you want to pressure healers with a dot based class, you're far better doing a Lethality Sniper.

[Xsorus]

Using Rapid shots to finish a kill is not a terrible idea if you want to conserve heat, But we're talking 10% life type kills, if you proc CGC, it alone will hit for 1k damage.

 

Most of time you want to be getting FB up for the dot and initial damage for burst. which is why you use that ability, and why the nerf sucks.. If you're forced to use IM for the initial hit (so ya don't waste the proc while RS is still up) you're not only using a **** ton more heat but lowering that initial burst round on the target.

[Theology]

Exactly.

[SneiK]

Looking at your and your friend's post history, it's obvious you can't be reasoned with. You say things, and think you're always right, and refuse to admit that you could be wrong in ANY occasion:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=369557

 

Okay lets break it down boys.

 

For the sake of discussion, lets say you open on some guy with:

 

TD+IM+RS, (3 GCDs 4.5 secs)

 

Then you go to proc RS again. Flame burst > Rocket Punch=2 GCDs for a total of 3 seconds.( PROC TIMER STARTS, 6 seconds) then Railshot -1.5 seconds. Auto attack -1.5 Auto attack -1.5 Auto attack -1.5=6 seconds. PPA is eligible. FB+RP (3 seocnds) (total of 9 seconds) > Rail Shot

 

/facepalm

 

The proc will happen as soon as you START the attack.

 

You can use TWO abilities within a 1.5 second window.

 

You need to wait 3 seconds to do your THIRD attack.

 

I can't comprehend how some people are this bad at math.

 

...See?...And that's after about 10 posts arguing about it...And you still didn't accept the fact that you were wrong.

 

This may come as a surprise to a "seasoned" Pyro such as yourself, but there many many Pyros currently who dont even spec TD, myself included.

 

You should explain your opinions, not just state them (Argumentation). Yes, I know lot of 'pyros' leave TD out. Why would you drop it? Didn't you yourself say that:

 

Yes the situations where spike beats overall dmg, is called PvP

 

...So you want spike, but leave the one ability that gives it, out? See how you contradict yourself, just to object everything I say? And if you say TD doesn't give you burst, why is these forums filled with QQ about 7k rails...Newsflash: TD and Rail. Firebug 30% crit dmg bonus is enough for me to spec TD, since I'm alrdy into crits and up the tree...

 

And lastly:

 

What? Rail is range dependent? cant use too good when 10m+?? I think your character is bugged. You should definitely report it.

 

Can you always use rail at 30m? No, you need a dot or a stun. Your stun is long cd and your IM does a lot of heat. You can try proccing rapids for the dot, or unload I guess...This is what I mean by 'dependent'. Even if it is 30m, it works better the closer you are to the target (so you can use FB to dot/proc together with RP). You won't see this, because all you try to do is invalidate everything I say.

 

Using FB as a finisher is ok, I NEVER said it SHOULDN'T be used in ANY circumstances, but again, you just wanted to cling to the fact that I said anything. There is a difference between FB, FB, FB + rail everytime it procs, which leads to medicore dmg (both burst and otherwise) due to heat and luck, and making use of other abilities you may have. If you didn't spec TD, then maybe that is your best burst rotation, I can't say. I'll pop a TD every time I can, because it gets people killed...

 

If you really PVP by running around tab targetting and spamming flame burst to get dots on people, I never want you on my team. Killing people>dot'ing people.

 

...And now you gona take that 'every time' too literally, and think I pop a TD when the opponent has like <1k hp, just to 'proof' what a complete 'noobs' everybody else are, and to make you look 'good'. You should learn to read what others write before:

 

As a pyro I use ALL my abilities.

 

...And by that I mean that every ability I have has a place in some situation. It all comes down to what the situations is. And you seem to forget this when you post.

 

We may run a bit different build and gear as well, so don't be too hasty to jump into conclusions. Try to UNDERSTAND, not CONTRADICT others, even if you think you are 'superior', 'smarter', and 'better' than them.

 

...Now I'm done being trolled.

Edited March 20, 2012 by SneiK

[Theology]

Actually, i'm still trying to understand the logic, I still don't quite get it. I'm literally thinking about it as we speak.

[LizardSF]

Ok, I will be honest here from the start. My only 50 is the PT. I have played all the other classes to the 30s. If you are saying that maybe the heat management playstyle of the current Pyro was not intended to work like that, can you please tell me, what other AC in 1.2 will heavily rely on their basic no cost ability 50% of the time in a rotation to stay optimum?

 

I don't know. That's my point. We can't operate on incomplete data, and there's two incomplete areas:

a)How heat management will work as part of the sum of all changes.

b)What BioWare's design goals are for the pyrotech, and if it was meeting them to begin with.

 

As a Bodyguard merc, I use Rapid Shots a lot -- not 50%, but probably 1 in 3, 1 in 4, especially in groups. I'm much less concerned about heat buildup soloing, because it's just my *** on the line if I screw up, but in a group, my entire focus is healing, and I want to keep my heat low, even if this means doing little or no DPS, in order to have the heat I need to spam a couple of big heals in an emergency. Maybe this is a really stupid strategy and I could to a lot better, but I usually keep groups alive with it, and at the end of the day, if we're all standing after a pull, that's all that counts to me.

[SneiK]

--- = 1.5 seconds(GCD), ! = time, when the timer starts, X = any ability:

 

Let's say you use FB to proc rail, and the timer starts:

 

The guys at the PTS pointed it's:

 

!--- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB _RS_X_X_FB_RS.................

 

As you can see, between each try to make the proc happen, you have to only use 2 other abilities (3 seconds).

 

This is the best case scenario ofc. On average, you will rail every 7.5 seconds (not 9). In your posts you seemed to have the misconception that the timer would start after the initial GCD that procced the ability:

 

---! --- --- --- --- ---! <- extra 1.5 seconds

FB_RS_X_X_X_FB

 

The point is, there is only 3 seconds between the procs where you are 'Omg I can't try to proc rail yet'.

Edited March 20, 2012 by SneiK

[Theology]

Right, good point.

 

Then the CD need to be adjusted to 4.5 seconds then to be in line with the other trees, instead of 3 like i originally proposed.

[SneiK]

If you look at the math at the moment:

 

Let's take FB to make it simple (I'll come to RP later). around 3 tries are required to proc. This is pre 1.2: Average proccing

 

--- --- --- --- --- ---

FB RS FB FB FB RS

 

So, at the moment, on average, you will be rail shotting every 6 seconds. (from the start of the first RS to the start of the second)

 

1.2: Average proccing (2 FB required on average)

 

!--- --- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB_RS_X_X_FB_FB_RS

 

 

As you can see, now we get to rail on average every 6 seconds, but 1.2 we will be averaging 7.5 seconds. 7.5 - 6 = 1.5 seconds. If the timer would be 4.5 seconds...

 

Still average:

 

!--- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB_RS_X_FB_FB_RS

 

Average time between Rail Shots, 6 seconds

 

So, you sir are dead right that about the fact that this IS a nerf. Anybody who thinks it's just to 'make rail more reliable' is kidding himself. Not to mention that the timer restricts your use of RP in many occasions (if FB procs, you can't use that 60% proc chance of the RP right away)...

 

But it is not as big a nerf people make it to be. I don't mind the 1.5 seconds...But since you lose some synergy between the FB and RP cuz of the timer...if FB would 100% proc, then the average proc rates would not change, and you could RP whenever you want...

Edited March 20, 2012 by SneiK

[Theology]

I started a new thread, consolidating all the great info from the other 2 threads so far. Complete with charts and concerns and solutions!

[Agooz]

 

You should explain your opinions, not just state them (Argumentation). Yes, I know lot of 'pyros' leave TD out. Why would you drop it? Didn't you yourself say that:

 

 

 

...So you want spike, but leave the one ability that gives it, out? See how you contradict yourself, just to object everything I say? And if you say TD doesn't give you burst, why is these forums filled with QQ about 7k rails...Newsflash: TD and Rail. Firebug 30% crit dmg bonus is enough for me to spec TD, since I'm alrdy into crits and up the tree...

 

 

Selective reading and taking things out of context makes for very poor arguments. If you really looked at all my posts history you would have understood where I am coming from.

I said before if you are lacking in Bursts, then TD is needed. But once you are geared decently, and your playstyle doesnt require you to need it, then going 8/8/25 or 8/6/27 actually puts out more pressure dps. If I felt that I needed the extra burst to finish off people, I would have stayed with TD.

Post 1.2 it is quite obvious that TD will be a must for any deep pyro to compensate.

[Varicite]

If you look at the math at the moment:

 

Let's take FB to make it simple (I'll come to RP later). around 3 tries are required to proc. This is pre 1.2: Average proccing

 

--- --- --- --- --- ---

FB RS FB FB FB RS

 

So, at the moment, on average, you will be rail shotting every 6 seconds. (from the start of the first RS to the start of the second)

 

1.2: Average proccing (2 FB required on average)

 

!--- --- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB_RS_X_X_FB_FB_RS

 

 

As you can see, now we get to rail on average every 6 seconds, but 1.2 we will be averaging 7.5 seconds. 7.5 - 6 = 1.5 seconds. If the timer would be 4.5 seconds...

 

Still average:

 

!--- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB_RS_X_FB_FB_RS

 

Average time between Rail Shots, 6 seconds

 

So, you sir are dead right that about the fact that this IS a nerf. Anybody who thinks it's just to 'make rail more reliable' is kidding himself. Not to mention that the timer restricts your use of RP in many occasions (if FB procs, you can't use that 60% proc chance of the RP right away)...

 

But it is not as big a nerf people make it to be. I don't mind the 1.5 seconds...But since you lose some synergy between the FB and RP cuz of the timer...if FB would 100% proc, then the average proc rates would not change, and you could RP whenever you want...

 

This is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time.

 

Which is why I keep trying to cite 4.5 as being a more reasonable ICD to keep us in line w/ the other specs.

 

Your chart is a lot prettier than my words, though. :c

[SneiK]

Selective reading and taking things out of context makes for very poor arguments. If you really looked at all my posts history you would have understood where I am coming from.

I said before if you are lacking in Bursts, then TD is needed. But once you are geared decently, and your playstyle doesnt require you to need it, then going 8/8/25 or 8/6/27 actually puts out more pressure dps. If I felt that I needed the extra burst to finish off people, I would have stayed with TD.

Post 1.2 it is quite obvious that TD will be a must for any deep pyro to compensate.

 

I can't say that I read all your previous posts prior to joining this thread, so taking things out of context is my bad, and I'm sorry about that. But the same goes for you sir.

 

Oh, and here's the link to the new thread. Let's please focus on solutions, not fighting there, and perhaps get some results:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3535819#post3535819

Edited March 20, 2012 by SneiK

[Assaultrooper]

I started a new thread, consolidating all the great info from the other 2 threads so far. Complete with charts and concerns and solutions!

 

Would most appreciate a link kind sire!

[SneiK]

You can either look at his started threads, or my post above that has the link.

[Gumbort]

For PVP 6 seconds is too long, plain and simple. The real adjustment to the skill is the fact that Combustible Gas Cylinder has to be up for RS to proc. What do people think about increasing the chance for CGC to proc or making it last longer than 6 seconds? This could balance the delay for APA RS proc and aid in heat management by decreasing the dependency on FB to keep CBC up.

[Theology]

For PVP 6 seconds is too long, plain and simple. The real adjustment to the skill is the fact that Combustible Gas Cylinder has to be up for RS to proc. What do people think about increasing the chance for CGC to proc or making it last longer than 6 seconds? This could balance the delay for APA RS proc and aid in heat management by decreasing the dependency on FB to keep CBC up.

 

Increasing the chance for CGC wouldn't do anything, assuming you mean increasing the chance for it on auto attack. We're still stuck with spamming auto attack waiting for it.

[Agenteusa]

I don´t mind RS getting a higher CD since I think the dmg was abusive.

 

But they will have to fix the vent heat ability somehow. If they don´t it´s going to kill Pyro PT´s for both Pve and Pvp and it´s kinda frightening me they didn´t even mention that.

 

Or did they just forget the only way we have to vent heat besides umm "Vent Heat" is SHR ?

 

I´m not a guy that can´t be argued with and I assume RS was OP, but it´s up to BW to understand that if they increase its CD they have to do something about heat management unless they assume altogheter that RS is so powerful that we can base most of our rotations using default weapon shots just to prevent overheating.

 

Adding to the injury although the proc chance from RP and FB going up , like said in this post, it´s still random so we can spend more than the 6 secs without RS.

[Bazookabill]

The new rotation will be as follows:

 

Opener: Same as before with TD --> IM--> (relics/adrenals) RS --> RP (RS) FB (RS) -->

 

Rapid shots --> Rapid Shots --> Rapid Shots--> Rapid Shots --> RP/FB --> RS. Rinse and repeat.

 

Basically, you blow your wad for 6 seconds, max your heat, then rapid shot to auto-vent all the way back down.

 

Makes me sick just thinking about it.

 

Me too .... puke .

pvping on my pyro powertech was the only thing still keeping me subbed.

[megamacka]

I just finished leveling up my pyrotech, but u guys do know that you are QQing about 6 seconds while smash for juggernauts ( my main ) will be much much much longer......

 

Bioware be killing all my characters :-(

[Varicite]

I just finished leveling up my pyrotech, but u guys do know that you are QQing about 6 seconds while smash for juggernauts ( my main ) will be much much much longer......

 

Bioware be killing all my characters :-(

 

...that's not what we're complaining about at all. Did you read the thread? : o

[megamacka]

ofc I did... but 6 secs ain't that bad tbh, sure u wont be proccing RS like every sec if ur lucky like you do now. But some classes really have it worse, I think pyro needed a nerf to RS. But 6 sec is a tad too much since it's about RNG still

[Cronhour]

Then you don't play a Pyro powertech, sir. Please leave this discussion quietly.

 

it's a needed retuning rather then a nerf, though maybe 4.5 rather than 6 would be better, lets test it and find out. Our burst had the possibility to be very dumb this should level out the rng, afterall we shouldn't be pulling aggro off full rakata tanks while they guard us.

[Varicite]

ofc I did... but 6 secs ain't that bad tbh, sure u wont be proccing RS like every sec if ur lucky like you do now. But some classes really have it worse, I think pyro needed a nerf to RS. But 6 sec is a tad too much since it's about RNG still

 

The thread is about wanting RS to be every 6 seconds. The way it's set up currently, it will be longer than that (ie: 7.5 at the VERY least, 9 seconds on average), which is why we're concerned.

 

We are just asking the ICD to be lowered slightly to 4.5 seconds so that we can use RS at the 6 second mark, which is what I think was intended.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Varicite