MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Hes good at counting breh. 3 =/= 9 isnt the math your asking for... At any rate lets assume no crits TD= 1800- 30%~ in armor = 1300, Immo hits for 500-700 dmg, and FB hits for 700, and Railshot our SUPER OP ability hits for 1k- (10-20%) armor = 900. Sum that up = about 3.5k damage. Grats you are now overheated, and have to spam rapid shots for the next 6 secs, and only took away 20% of the enemies' hp. What was your point again? What is breh anyways? How often do you fail to crit on every single attack? And really I haven't seen numbers that low since I was wearing centurion gear. I'm talking all champ or BM gear stacked with power/surge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) What is breh anyways? How often do you fail to crit on every single attack? And really I haven't seen numbers that low since I was wearing centurion gear. I'm talking all champ or BM gear stacked with power/surge. My Pyro is in half champ/half BM with all enhancements replaced with power/surge and those are the numbers i see with Power relic/adrenal and Explosive fuel. Dont try to inflate the numbers in an attempt to disprove something. Edit: The numbers i listed anyways. The numbers he listed non-crit are what I also see. Edited March 19, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 What is breh anyways? How often do you fail to crit on every single attack? And really I haven't seen numbers that low since I was wearing centurion gear. I'm talking all champ or BM gear stacked with power/surge. I just took the numbers from what I remembered but should been enough anyways, FULL BM (NOT ONE PVE Piece) FB= 800-900 IMMO= 400 Railshort= 1.3k - 1.6k TD= 1.6k-1.9k SUM=3850 Non crit Your point again was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) The problem isn't the opener. Our opening damage is fair. The problem is AFTER the opener and first PPA proc. Our wad is completely blown and all we can do is auto attack inbetween each 6 sec PPA proc. And, PPA by nature, requires us to use 32 heat just to vent 8 heat. Somewhat counter productive, no? Speaking stricly post 1.2 here Edited March 19, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I really dont see what point youre trying to make here, if you're trying to make it sound like our opener is OP and its justifiable that we only have an opener and auto attack spam post 1.2for damage, then youre doing a really bad job of it. So nothing has changed until that 1st proc between now and 1.2. Except we have better odds of getting that 1st proc. So 16-17k by the 1st proc.... and you said our heat should be around 70% something correct? It's safe to assume most people would be dead or damn close to it at this point correct? Relics and stim should still be active at this point. Rapid shot will do 750-1k damage easy with relic/stim active. So 3 rapid shots.... we will say what 2250 damage more on top of the 16-17k? So in most cases in this situation, you don't even need to proc another RS.... they would be dead by then..... if not, then in the process of trying to proc again you have done 20k damage? Your math is better then mine... I'm just trying to understand the issue here Edited March 19, 2012 by MiZrYdj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I have the feeling that his trying the argue that the 0.015% probability of getting all those crit will become 100% when the patch comes out therefore not been a real nerf but a buff! Maybe I missed something in the Patch notes... EDIT: AND I AM CORRECT! So nothing has changed until that 1st proc between now and 1.2. Except we have better odds of getting that 1st proc. So 16-17k by the 1st proc.... and you said our heat should be around 70% something correct? It's safe to assume most people would be dead or damn close to it at this point correct? Relics and stim should still be active at this point. Rapid shot will do 750-1k damage easy with relic/stim active. So 3 rapid shots.... we will say what 2250 damage more on top of the 16-17k? So in most cases in this situation, you don't even need to proc another RS.... they would be dead by then. In the process of trying to proc again you have done 20k damage? Your math is better then mine... I'm just trying to understand the issue here Edited March 19, 2012 by Assaultrooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I have the feeling that his trying the argue that the 0.015% probability of getting all those crit will become 100% when the patch comes out therefore not been a real nerf but a buff! Maybe I missed something in the Patch notes... EDIT: AND I AM CORRECT! I think you fail to realize we are talking about relic/stim ect numbers...... and maximum potential damage output We can cover the mins in a few minutes...... don't get too excited Edited March 19, 2012 by MiZrYdj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I think you fail to realize we are talking about relic/stim ect numbers...... Yes relics+ stims = 35% crit at best. The Probability of you having that crit 4 times in a row is 0.015% Edited March 19, 2012 by Assaultrooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Yes relics+ stims = 35% crit at best. The Probability of you having that crit 4 times in a row is 0.015% Again.... you are side stepping "breh" We are talking about maximum potential..... the key word there is "potential". Websters makes this awesome book called a dictionary. Look it up Edited March 19, 2012 by MiZrYdj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Again.... you are side stepping "breh" We are talk about maximum potential..... the key word there is "potential". Websters makes the awesome book called a dictionary. Look it up Hey my Jugg can do two 8k crits one after the other with zero downtime and no overheat problems! I guess they should get nerfed! Its all "potential"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) So nothing has changed until that 1st proc between now and 1.2. Except we have better odds of getting that 1st proc. So 16-17k by the 1st proc.... and you said our heat should be around 70% something correct? It's safe to assume most people would be dead or damn close to it at this point correct? Relics and stim should still be active at this point. Rapid shot will do 750-1k damage easy with relic/stim active. So 3 rapid shots.... we will say what 2250 damage more on top of the 16-17k? So in most cases in this situation, you don't even need to proc another RS.... they would be dead by then..... if not, then in the process of trying to proc again you have done 20k damage? Your math is better then mine... I'm just trying to understand the issue here You're way too focused on the opening damage. Our opener is unchanged by the CD put on PPA my friend. Throw the opener out of the window, it's staying EXACTLY the same. The problem arises POST opener. So we open for say, and assuming the stars align and best case scenario, 17k over 6 GCDs(9 seconds) GCDs(with relics/adrenals/temps); TD>IM>RS>FB>RP>RS (70-75 heat) Okay, so this is exactly how it works now, pre 1.2. Now, THIS is where it changes post 1.2. After that last RS, the rotation becomes AA>AA>AA>AA (40-45% heat) FB>RP>RS(40+32-8=64 heat after 2nd PPA proc) then AA>AA>AA>AA to let heat vent passively, at around 35-40% at this point. FB>RP>TD>RS(40+48-8=80) Rinse and repeat. After every single PPA proc, youll be floating between 60-75% heat. This isn't even factoring in Incindiery missle, which will be completely unusable post 1.2 because of it's ridiculius heat cost. Edited March 19, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mizhas Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I just took the numbers from what I remembered but should been enough anyways, FULL BM (NOT ONE PVE Piece) FB= 800-900 IMMO= 400 Railshort= 1.3k - 1.6k TD= 1.6k-1.9k SUM=3850 Non crit Your point again was? So now try to do the same math with crits. Damage goes up to a really painfull level: FB= 1400 IMMO= 900 Railshort= 4k TD= 4k CGC = 800 (renember that this one is applied on each FB) And theese are not our max crits, just average ones. Does the proc need an internal cooldown? YES Is 6 seconds too much for it? DEFINITELY How many secs would i put on it? around 3 or 4.5 Should Railshot vent more heat per use? OFC (something like 50% or 100% more then the actual value) Edited March 19, 2012 by Mizhas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Hey my Jugg can do two 8k crits one after the other with zero downtime and no overheat problems! I guess they should get nerfed! Its all "potential"! OK? It's also extremely easy to avoid a Juggs crit. That's your downside. You can't avoid our attacks. Heat is our downside... and like a jugg, PT's have to know how to work around our downside. What is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Miz, see my above post for what to expect on your Pyro post 1.2 You're okay with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 You're way too focused on the opening damage. Our opener is unchanged by the CD put on PPA my friend. Throw the opener out of the window, it's staying EXACTLY the same. The problem arises POST opener. So we open for say, and assuming the stars align and best case scenario, 17k over 6 GCDs(9 seconds) GCDs(with relics/adrenals/temps); TD>IM>RS>FB>RP>RS (70-75 heat) Okay, so this is exactly how it works now, pre 1.2. Now, THIS is where it changes post 1.2. After that last RS, the rotation becomes AA>AA>AA>AA (40-45% heat) FB>RP>RS(40+32-8=64 heat after 2nd PPA proc) then AA>AA>AA>AA to let heat vent passively, at around 35-40% at this point. FB>RP>TD>RS(40+48-8=80) Rinse and repeat. After every single PPA proc, youll be floating between 60-75% heat. This isn't even factoring in Incindiery missle, which will be completely unusable post 1.2 because of it's ridiculius heat cost. What I'm trying to point out is once we do enough damage to bring most classes down rather quickly by the 2nd RS..... we should not have an easy kill after dropping that much HP so quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Miz, see my above post for what to expect on your Pyro post 1.2 You're okay with that? Yes.... because we have pretty much killed most clases or have them within 5k of death by the time the 2 RS lands. Fishing for the last "FINISH HIM" move should be slightly difficult imho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 17k best scenario over 9 seconds isn't even 2k damage a second. While i agree that our burst is nice, that's no reason for us to be completely useless post opener. Keep in mind those numbers are only with relics/temps/adrenals popped. After all that fades and we're heat starved trying to proc PPA, you can imagine (even more math for you) FB>RP>RS will be roughly 6k, over 3 GCDs (4.5 seconds) thats ~1.5k damage per second...all the while maxing our heat for that proc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Yes.... because we have pretty much killed most clases or have them within 5k of death by the time the 2 RS lands. Fishing for the last "FINISH HIM" move should be slightly difficult imho Dude, there won't be a FINISH HIM move, because youre at roughly 75% heat post opener and you need to let your heat get down for the next PPA proc in 6 seconds or youll miss your window and proc it prematurely and waste it. Your only FINISH HIM move will be 4 auto attacks. GL killing anyone with that 2kish damage over 6 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 OK? It's also extremely easy to avoid a Juggs crit. That's your downside. You can't avoid our attacks. Heat is our downside... and like a jugg, PT's have to know how to work around our downside. What is your point? Yea but the downside of our "opener" is RNG warrior is the ability to move away your just selecting biases to confirm your hypothesis. In the actual game, PvE wise you might not be viable as a dps. PvP wise you seem to forget that most classes COUGH* marauders also have defensive cooldowns that will get popped the moment you trigger your Opener. 17k damage isn't a crazy ammount when it has a 0.015% of occuring every 2-3 min. The real basis on what you SHOULD be focusing on is the combat post-opening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Yea but the downside of our "opener" is RNG warrior is the ability to move away your just selecting biases to confirm your hypothesis. In the actual game, PvE wise you might not be viable as a dps. PvP wise you seem to forget that most classes COUGH* marauders also have defensive cooldowns that will get popped the moment you trigger your Opener. 17k damage isn't a crazy ammount when it has a 0.015% of occuring every 2-3 min. The real basis on what you SHOULD be focusing on is the combat post-opening. This. And post 1.2, the Pyrotech has no potential after opening. Our only potential is every 6 seconds getting in 6k dmg, if everything crits, over 3 seconds. Then rapid shotting for 6 seconds. Rinse and repeat, and you have yourself the new pyro. Edited March 20, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 This thread is depressing. Makes me wanna play my Marauder and sulk. :c Yes, I'll still be PT after the changes; can't wait to see the finalized AP when 1.2 hits, tbh, but I'll most likely be running my current Pyro spec as one of my dual specs. Combo of AP utility and Pyro damage is too good to pass up right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 17k best scenario over 9 seconds isn't even 2k damage a second. While i agree that our burst is nice, that's no reason for us to be completely useless post opener. Keep in mind those numbers are only with relics/temps/adrenals popped. After all that fades and we're heat starved trying to proc PPA, you can imagine (even more math for you) FB>RP>RS will be roughly 6k, over 3 GCDs (4.5 seconds) thats ~1.5k damage per second...all the while maxing our heat for that proc. Ok now that we have by the book rotations... If we do happen to over heat there a few things you can do. Vent heat of course, if it's up. If melee, stun rapid shots and increase your gap. If ranged, rapid shot till LOS or stun. Strategy comes into play big time with these kind of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Running away because you're so heat starved that you cant fight back but every 6 seconds is a strategy? lol Absurd man, absurd. Edited March 20, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 6k views between the 2 threads. Please, one of you be a Dev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Yea but the downside of our "opener" is RNG warrior is the ability to move away your just selecting biases to confirm your hypothesis. In the actual game, PvE wise you might not be viable as a dps. PvP wise you seem to forget that most classes COUGH* marauders also have defensive cooldowns that will get popped the moment you trigger your Opener. 17k damage isn't a crazy ammount when it has a 0.015% of occuring every 2-3 min. The real basis on what you SHOULD be focusing on is the combat post-opening. I know you guys don't believe me about PT guildies in PTS... but I will mention this again. PvE pyro is parsing above every other dps class as of the testing results I was shown last night. Most classes were in 1300 ranges while Pyro was around 1400-1500 dont remember exactly was tired. As for marauders *cough they have been a pain in the *** to us, and probably always will. Just the way it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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