1.2 Hard Mode loot. Why raid when you can just run dailies?

[oredith]

welcome to MMO. it's call mudflation.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

[Jaksith]

Can someone save me the trouble of searching 23 pages and tell me, do these new black-hole commendations grant access to every piece of gear, or similar to dailies, the mods/armor/enhance updates, and possible some non-slotted gear?

[Raeln]

In WoW's heyday of TBC, less than 1% of all players (I think, willing to admit I'm off a bit but I know it was under 5%) saw the end of Sunwell. They provided a decent approach to gearing using heroic badges that kept the casual daily player in epics that were good and roughly a tier behind raid gear.

 

I find it disingenuous to say no players like to raid. Why would devs waste time on the content if someone didn't like raiding? I happen to enjoy it.

 

I don't remember anyone saying that no one likes to raid. Obviously some like to raid - I like to raid at times, but I do believe there is more money spent on developing raid content than it deserves.

 

I'd much rather see more 2/3/4 man group content than raid content these days. MMO raiding is often so "forced". We are to believe that there are these immensely powerful beasts, droids, and lulz - "humanoids" that have somehow become so powerful that it takes 8 or 16 others to take them down. We are supposed to completely overlook the fact that Bonecrusher, due to his immense size, would simply crush any player into a greasy spot at any time - yet through our superior superhuman abilities we shrug off those devastating blows like they were not much more than a wiffleball bat. Yeah, it leaves a bruise that is healed within the next 3 seconds.

 

It's like parrying a dragon with a dagger. It borders on the edge of "suspension of disbelief". It is far less of a stretch with smaller group content of 2/3/4 man bosses where they are not quite so superhuman for superhuman.

[Raeln]

To sit there and say "very few raiders enjoy raiding"... what planet are you on and who made you the authority on what people enjoy? If you want to make a valid argument, do not throw out faked up statistics and use words like "we", "most" "every", etc to "prove" your point. State your opinion using YOURSELF as an example. I don't give two ***** what you THINK "most" people like/dislike. You do not speak for everyone. Especially not raiders. I'm not talking story mode people either. I'm talking the Nightmare folks.

 

Relatively speaking: if you compare the number of players raiding at any level to the number of players that are not raiding at all, you will find that a surprisingly small number of players actually raid. There would be a great margin of error because some people might raid once here and not raid again for two months. Obviously, they raid but they don't raid regularly.

 

I can speak for myself and what I see in our group - those people LOVE raiding. Log in any non-raid day and nobody is on. Come Tues/Wed/Thurs and our roster fills up. Those people are there to RAID. Not do dailies... Pretty much everyone in our group is there for the challenge of doing the content. One guy doesn't like nightmare mode because it's the same drops. The other 11 that come in and out of that group are like meh whatever you want to give me, when the loot drops. Half the time they are out of range to even give loot to because they are tearing off to clear trash to the next boss. They laugh and have fun in vent -- in a group setting -- that isn't otherwise there any other time of the week. So do NOT attempt to preach that "very few raiders enjoy raiding". If my folks didn't enjoy it, they'd just not show up.

 

Your 16 man raid is not indicative of the entire playerbase. You are talking about a guild that was created with the focus to raid. How many guildies do you have in your guild that do not raid? I imagine it's a low number compared to the number that do, which is entirely reasonable because the goal of your guild is to raid.

 

For your one guild, there are probably 6 to 10 other guilds out there that have not raided within the last 3 weeks, either due to attendance problems or it's just not their primary directive.

 

Daily commendations should NOT be giving raid quality gear. If you're not raiding, you don't need it. Like someone else said, the stats should be optimized for what you're working on. Dailies = companion out. That gear should have presence on it. Just like PvP gear gets expertise. Raid gear should be normal stats you'd need without being in a wz or doing dailies and be obtained in a raid environment.

 

Edit: Alright - I'm fine with that system. Let daily commendation gear give +presence. I'm fine with that as long as raid gear stats only activate while you are inside a raid instance. Outside the raid instance, you gain zero stats from them.

 

You can have your ultimately powerful raid gear but it isn't going to help you do anything else.

 

Where mmo's keep screwing the pooch imo, is making those shiny epics too easy to obtain. The whole "badge" system is junk. All it does it give people raid gear that don't want to raid. If you aren't raiding, you don't need the damn gear. It's that simple. But no no, "i paid for this game so I should get what I want" mentalities are what keeps dumbing down every mmo out there. For once I'd like a company to stand up and say NO. You want this shiny epic... go in there and kill the monster that drops it. Period. Instead they have gamers on the life support ***** of badges/commentations/points/etc so they don't have to deal with repair bills or other people.

 

There is a valid reason to keep the playerbase in gear close to the current raid gear level. If you cannot immediately recognize this reason then I suspect you have never been involved in raid/guild leadership.

 

*GASP* OTHER PEOPLE?!?!?! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO /cancel sub

 

They took something from WoW and put it in here... and it shouldn't have ever been put in either game. And no, I don't want to hear your garbage about paying a subscription fee and you don't have time to raid and blah blah blah. Bottom line for me has always been that if you want raid gear, you raid. Buying it off a vendor is just welfare in a video game for those that can't. There's enough welfare out in the real world. Can we just STOP giving out handouts to lazy people? I hate it. Nothing you say can ever change my mind on it.

 

Commendations/Badges = WELFARE. See it for what it is.

 

Nope. It's not welfare. If you think it is, then I don't think you know what "welfare" really means.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Raeln

[Eldercouncil]

why raid when you can run dailies?

 

because, shock and awe here, doing both could DOUBLE your chances of getting the pieces!

 

For those of you that have had your mind blown, just take a minute to sit back and calm down.

 

 

What of the people who are Raid Alternatives for people who always show up, and the people who struggle forming a raid, you go on about double your chance , what about thinking of others for a change who are raiders but never given the chance to.

[Eldercouncil]

Black Hole Commendations should be added in to the Corellia dailies, You will find most of those who raid, dont give a crap about dailies, they dont even want to spend the time doing them becuase they think its beneth them.

 

The Black Hole COmmedations should be accessible for all kinds, Those who cant find a raid group, cant get into a raid group, are subs that never get subbed in, or raid groups that just simply fall apart before they even begin.

[Bladedakoda]

Black Hole Commendations are also good for people who might have a fresh 50 alt, and just want to farm some gear for it. It also helps people who have never raided before to not get left behind, if they decide they want to give it a go. I ask again though, why does it affect raiders if people can run dailys for some gear that will take months to get a full set.

 

I'm sorry to break the bad news to you, but you are not special, despite what you belive, people don't look up to you. You could not do it without the other 7 or 15 people, you are not as leet as you think you are. That awesome title won't get you laid. Yes i do raid, no i don't care how other people get gear, and neither should you.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Bladedakoda

[krinaman]

Why do you care about getting raid gear if you hate raiding? If you enjoy raiding, do it. While doing it, you'll happen to get gear which makes you better at the activity you enjoy. If you hate raiding, why do you want gear that you hate having to use?

 

So let's clarify something, it's better gear not "raid" gear. There is nothing about the gear that makes it "raid" gear.

 

With that in mind let me answer your question.

 

People care about improving their characters. One way of doing that is getting "better" gear. A solo player could use this "better" gear to do dailies faster or do more challanging solo quests. If the devs so desired they could make progressive solo content as well as progressive group content.

 

People wouldn't hate using the "better" gear because they would use it to do content that they enjoyed doing.

 

Personally, I enjoy raiding and solo content. But raiding presents all kinds of logistical problems:

 

- You need 8/16 people of the right classes (ie 8 dps doesn't work). You got 7 too bad. You got 12, too bad 4 get to sit this week.

 

- You need to get everyone on at the same time. Therefore you need to schedule or be lucky and be on when an ad hoc raid starts. This makes things difficult for people with busy schedules.

 

- You need at least 7 other people who still need gear/still want to go. In my case my guild is done running normal mode because everyone has the gear. Meanwhile my alt is about 50 and I am SOL on getting him the better gear. This problem gets even worse as each new tier of gear comes out.

 

This, quite frankly, is my single biggest problem with group content. Nobody does it once they get the gear, so unless you get your gear when it's new you likely never will.

 

tl;dr - I'll raid when convenient but I would love other options for when it's not.

[Gavin_Darkl]

 

I'd much rather see more 2/3/4 man group content than raid content these days. MMO raiding is often so "forced".

.

 

Raiding is on Forced on you. If you want the Raid gear YOU SHOULD RAID FOR IT. Not be handed the gear. Stop asking for the gear just because you pay for the subscription, go earn it by downing raid bosses. If you want Solo Gear that's not a problem ask for presence gear and be happy with it

[Bladedakoda]

Raiding is on Forced on you. If you want the Raid gear YOU SHOULD RAID FOR IT. Not be handed the gear. Stop asking for the gear just because you pay for the subscription, go earn it by downing raid bosses. If you want Solo Gear that's not a problem ask for presence gear and be happy with it

 

I love how people get so bent out of shape over raid gear, the tears are delicious!

[Gavin_Darkl]

Edit: Alright - I'm fine with that system. Let daily commendation gear give +presence. I'm fine with that as long as raid gear stats only activate while you are inside a raid instance. Outside the raid instance, you gain zero stats from them.

 

You can have your ultimately powerful raid gear but it isn't going to help you do anything else.

 

Sorry but no. Most Raiders Log on to Raid and do very little solo content throughout the week. Why? Because we play this game to Raid not solo. If you play this game to solo you are choosing not to raid or put the effort required for raiding. If you want to do Flashpoints the gear will be just good enough for you to do that content but not raids. Tough if you want the gear from raids Stop asking for a welfare system and earn it

[Gavin_Darkl]

Black Hole Commendations are also good for people who might have a fresh 50 alt, and just want to farm some gear for it. It also helps people who have never raided before to not get left behind, if they decide they want to give it a go. I ask again though, why does it affect raiders if people can run dailys for some gear that will take months to get a full set.

 

I'm sorry to break the bad news to you, but you are not special, despite what you belive, people don't look up to you. You could not do it without the other 7 or 15 people, you are not as leet as you think you are. That awesome title won't get you laid. Yes i do raid, no i don't care how other people get gear, and neither should you.

 

First I dont mind a system that will not leave casuals behind or help them get up to hard mode level. I stated back in what I would do to change it. My system would help casuals get geared up faster AS LONG AS THEY DOWNED THE BOSS for the gear they are getting. Via a Token with the DCs.

 

Second the reason why Raiders have a problem with gear welfare is this, we put the effort to be ready to raid on a consistent bases. that means, we run dailies to make sure we have credits or find ways to make credits. We Make sure we are there with buffs and stims. We watch boss fights and learn our role. We do what is needed to down the content to earn the gear, people who do not raid never earn that gear. Doing dailies are not the same as raiding with 7/15 other people who could cause the raid not to down the boss. Doing dailies you have only 1 person to blame yourself, its not the same as counting on a healer to pull their weight or a tank knowing how to position the boss. Sorry the effort required is much different and you do not have full control over the situation in a raid as you do solo.

 

Again people who want a Alternative way to gear up that are willing to raid and will down a boss should be given tokens to help them buy gear faster with their dailies that they do. No problem there.

[Bladedakoda]

First I dont mind a system that will not leave casuals behind or help them get up to hard mode level. I stated back in what I would do to change it. My system would help casuals get geared up faster AS LONG AS THEY DOWNED THE BOSS for the gear they are getting. Via a Token with the DCs.

 

Second the reason why Raiders have a problem with gear welfare is this, we put the effort to be ready to raid on a consistent bases. that means, we run dailies to make sure we have credits or find ways to make credits. We Make sure we are there with buffs and stims. We watch boss fights and learn our role. We do what is needed to down the content to earn the gear, people who do not raid never earn that gear. Doing dailies are not the same as raiding with 7/15 other people who could cause the raid not to down the boss. Doing dailies you have only 1 person to blame yourself, its not the same as counting on a healer to pull their weight or a tank knowing how to position the boss. Sorry the effort required is much different and you do not have full control over the situation in a raid as you do solo.

 

Again people who want a Alternative way to gear up that are willing to raid and will down a boss should be given tokens to help them buy gear faster with their dailies that they do. No problem there.

 

I belive people that are willing to run dailies for months just to get gear shows a massive effort on their part to obtain gear. No it's not the same as raiding with 7/15 other people. We as raiders do put in alot of time and effort, as do they imo. Of cause it's only imo. But i ask again, why does it matter to you how someone else plays the game to obtain gear.

[Gavin_Darkl]

I love how people get so bent out of shape over raid gear, the tears are delicious!

 

And I love how people like you have a Lack of reasoning. Makes people who have some deductive reasoning and logic look like gods. Which in some cases we really are because well we understand that 2+2=4 you people still think 2+2=10.

 

Simple Logic

 

If you Raid and Down the Content you get Raid gear

 

If you dont Raid there for you do not down the content and you don't get raid gear

 

If you solo you should get solo gear

 

If you dont join a bowling team and bowl you never have a chance at winning a bowling trophy

 

All simple Logic too me, but you seem to not be able to grasp the concept.

[Gavin_Darkl]

I belive people that are willing to run dailies for months just to get gear shows a massive effort on their part to obtain gear. No it's not the same as raiding with 7/15 other people. We as raiders do put in alot of time and effort, as do they imo. Of cause it's only imo. But i ask again, why does it matter to you how someone else plays the game to obtain gear.

 

Simple If they want the raid gear they should raid. I am more then happy for gear to be designed around SOLO play. Should people who do Dailies get Rated PVP Gear? No.

 

I would even go 1 Step farther. You can buy the gear of the Flashpoints. That is acceptable to me as well.

 

Raiding and Rated PVP are both End game content that takes more effort that SOLO can never take. If people are crazy enough to pay a monthly sub for SOLOing on an MMO they can have Non Rated PVP gear and Flashpoint gear.

 

Yes I say people are crazy for paying a sub just to Solo in an MMO because I dont understand that logic. I can Buy a Single Player game and get everything for $30 to $50, where as a year sub is $180. I play MMOs to hang with friends, I personally would never pay a sub for a single player game.

[Bladedakoda]

Simple If they want the raid gear they should raid. I am more then happy for gear to be designed around SOLO play. Should people who do Dailies get Rated PVP Gear? No.

 

I would even go 1 Step farther. You can buy the gear of the Flashpoints. That is acceptable to me as well.

 

Raiding and Rated PVP are both End game content that takes more effort that SOLO can never take. If people are crazy enough to pay a monthly sub for SOLOing on an MMO they can have Non Rated PVP gear and Flashpoint gear.

 

Yes I say people are crazy for paying a sub just to Solo in an MMO because I dont understand that logic. I can Buy a Single Player game and get everything for $30 to $50, where as a year sub is $180. I play MMOs to hang with friends, I personally would never pay a sub for a single player game.

 

Just because you say, does not make it fact, just saying. If we all had the same views the world would be a very boring place. But you still have not answered the question. Why does it matter to you how other people play the game?

 

If you are having fun and getting the gear you want, why does it matter to you so much how other people get their gear? Tokens are a good way to get raid gear for people who might have started raiding late or want to try get ready for the next big ops coming in the next patch.

 

The funny thing is that it's the raiders fault that they made it so people could farm raid gear through tokens. Cause without a few pieces of raid gear (at least a 2 set bonus), most would never get into a raid in the first place. Yes i am talking about other mmo's as this has been the trend for a long time now.

 

So we as raiders are partially to blame, i am not saying you or myself specifically, but raiders in general.

[Raansu]

I don't have an issue with solo players getting gear from dailies...but it should be at most Columi gear. They should not be allowed to get the same tier gear as a raider running hard/nightmare mode raids.

[Bladedakoda]

I don't have an issue with solo players getting gear from dailies...but it should be at most Columi gear. They should not be allowed to get the same tier gear as a raider running hard/nightmare mode raids.

 

I can see why top tier would be frowned upon by serious raiders, but i still say it does not really affect those people how others get gear. All it really comes down to is standing around and saying wow look how awesome i am. Thats why people don't like raid gear to be obtained any other way then raiding. Yes it takes time and alot of credits if you count up the wipes after wipes trying to learn the boss mechanics.

 

I just don't understand why people don't say the real reason they don't want others to have the best gear, and its the epeen factor nothing more. Myeslf i don't care about anyone else as long as everyone are having fun. They don't get the titles, NM mode will not be able to be farmed through the daily system. (When NM comes in 1.2).

 

The funny thing is any true raider will tell you, that mashing buttons and moving out of stupid does not take skill, it just takes a little coordination to kill a boss.

 

I have said it before, and ill say it again without the other 7/15 people you are nothing special. With the other 7/15 people you are still nothing special, because...moving out of stupid and hitting buttons does not take skill.

[DaveMash]

Half the members of our raid group just canceled their subscription cause of the changes coming with 1.2.

 

They made two metaphoric statements, why they have quit:

 

1st: Just because you pay 15/month, you aren't that bada'ss mother**** deserving everything. Compare it to a football team where you have to pay 15 bucks a month _just_ to be in. Just because you pay your member fee, you aren't Eli Manning. You have to work your *** up to get the girls.

 

2nd: no recount? Cmon we want competition. This is like parents letting their kids play soccer matches without counting scores, because they don't want anyone having that "loser feeling". This is ageneration of losers. When we grew up, we got beaten up by other teams and grew stronger because of that competition.

 

---------------------

 

 

I won't cancel until 1.2 is out, just because I want to give it a chance. But I guess it will fail

Edited March 22, 2012 by DaveMash

[Karma_UK]

Sounds a bit harsh but solo'ers don't add much to the game world for me.

 

They log on do what they want and log off, that's generally indicative of a single player game. No problem with that if it's all they have time to do.

 

 

But last time i checked this was an MMO and server community plays a big part in that. Raidng/PvP guilds allways have a precense and make the server feel more like a family.

 

You can't put a price on that.

[alifaraaz]

So this threat needs to be closed. What part of:

 

"You do NOT get Black Hole Comms from the new daily!"

 

do people not understand?

 

All there is a WEEKLY quest, which rewards 6 commendations I believe. And as people previously stated, to grind up tier pieces using nothing but this weekly, would take over a year.

 

So please, those worried that people won't have to earn raid gear - quit your whining.

 

And to those who want the dailies to drop Commendation, you get 6 a week, which isn't much but it's a a little bit, enough save up for 1 or two pieces. Otherwise frankly - as other said, if you dont raid, you dont NEED raid gear. You may want, but dont need.

 

If anything, the weekly is just there to help you on your way, gear up faster and aid those who dont get to raid as often as others.

 

And as to WHY all the dailies dont drop Black Hole comms, it's incentive to raid. And it's incentive to keep running EV and KP Nightmare as well as Lost Island Hardmode.

 

End of Discussion....atleast I very much hope it is

[Atlanis]

Yeah I would totally rather grind mindless dailies for a week to get one piece of gear than run a cool new operation while earning that gear just for doing it. Picking up venom glands off Belsavis mobs like I've been doing for months is definitely really interesting compared to killing an AT-AT with a bunch of my friends.

 

Basically all you're admitting is that you don't play this game for fun, you only play it to press the lever and get your food pellet.

 

Agreed, I am Raidlead and most people join for the fun of a 16people Operation and not because they need gear. There are times when I random out Rakata Items because nobody needs them anymore, you ask why people still go raiding?

 

As he said, because of the challenge oh and by the way. Hurray another 4 weeks of kicking Daylies on shiny Correlia for new gear or Hurray another 4 weeks of fun raiding NM modes and HC modes and maybe some loot drops. I know what I prefer;)

[CoolJaZ]

I feel so very sorry for the people who quit just because of this. I request this thread be renamed to something more accurate because the Blackhole commendations you can only get from A SINGLE WEEKLY, and current NM's and new HM's, as far as I know.

 

 

So for those of you who quit,

losers.

[Xneco]

I feel so very sorry for the people who quit just because of this. I request this thread be renamed to something more accurate because the Blackhole commendations you can only get from A SINGLE WEEKLY, and current NM's and new HM's, as far as I know.

 

 

So for those of you who quit,

losers.

 

dude, everyone says they quit on the forums... just like everyone has +10mil credits, in a guild that is 10/10 NNM 16man ops, with full Battlemaster AND full Rakata! It's the forums where fact is fiction!

Edited March 22, 2012 by Xneco

[Raeln]

Raiding is on Forced on you. If you want the Raid gear YOU SHOULD RAID FOR IT. Not be handed the gear. Stop asking for the gear just because you pay for the subscription, go earn it by downing raid bosses. If you want Solo Gear that's not a problem ask for presence gear and be happy with it

 

I am raiding and no matter what you claim, if you want to try to complete your character as much as possible - you must raid. You must raid not only because that is where the best gear is doled out but where some codex entries come from.

 

If you must know, my ops team is making very nice progress in downing hardmode raids. We are 4/5 EV and we only raid two nights a week. I'm in mostly T2 raid gear.

 

Yes, I'm a raider and I would rather there be more smaller group content than raid content. I'd rather RAID content be primarily world bosses and single "Onyxia" style raid encounters rather than long windy instances that most players will never see. For all the artwork inside those instances, there is almost no story because they cannot do voice over interaction for 8/16 man raid groups. Examine Karagga's Palace - huge area, many bosses. I've spent hours in there with my 8 man group and earned no social points. There are only two voice over dialogs and they are solo, only to move you through a gated area. How much more engaging could KP have been as a small group instance, rather than a raid.

 

How much sense does it make that all 8 or 16 members of your raid force are gullible enough to fall through the trapdoor in Karagga's Palace at the same time? Makes about as much sense as killing a 300,000 ton behemoth named Bonecrusher without heavy mechanized artillery.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Raeln