R.I.P Pyro Powertech.

[Varicite]

Pretty much this. We already have one of the hardest, if not the hardest resource pool to manage because of RNG. Now we have the same problem, but we're forced to not have the same ability for 6 seconds. If they made it so that it procced 100% on FB after 6 seconds we wouldn't be losing as much as we are. The time difference between procs is insane. I don't mind an ICD but a 15% increase is laughably ignorable.

 

Yeah, we basically just lose half of our regen mechanic, and receive nothing in compensation.

 

BW culled the burst, sure, and destroyed any chance at decent sustainable damage in the process.

 

Rapid Shots x 4, are you serious BW?

[Varicite]

What you completly ignore is the fact that when you dontg et a proc in 3 attacks you start to bury yourself deep into heat deficiency, and it is not easy to go back from there. Pyrotech have currently extremally bad heat managment because of high reliance on RNG and unforgiving heat system.

 

With new system, you can manage your heat. Chance for long "no-procs" periods is much lower now. You act as you always get a proc after 4,5 seconds currently, which would be grossly OPed btw.

 

Heavily RNG dependant heat venting mechanic is not managing, it is counting on luck. Now it will be more predictable, which means more managable. You will have to use skills that lets you vent heat by not using it, or using less of it (like unload or hammer shots). Running around spamming flame strike and praying for proc is as far from MANAGEMENT as possible.

 

I average procs every 6 seconds, which is in line w/ the 2 other trees.

 

On PTS, you average procs every 9-10 seconds, which is almost half the rate as the other two trees. The chance for long "no-procs" periods is GUARANTEED now. We still don't have ANY other mechanic to dissipate heat, other than the 1.30 cd on Vent Heat and lolGAJ.

 

If you mean that it's reliable in that we will always have heat problems compared to the other two trees, you're absolutely correct.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite

[Kaarsa]

Oh I understand, your vision of heat management is "I should be always able to use my highest possbile dps move without any penalty and in no risk of overheating"

 

I am sorry, but they took it even from only class that actually could do it (sorcs). I somehow feel that it is not a way BW think that resoure management should work....

[Obie_Wan]

Oh I understand, your vision of heat management is "I should be always able to use my highest possbile dps move without any penalty and in no risk of overheating"

 

I am sorry, but they took it even from only class that actually could do it (sorcs). I somehow feel that it is not a way BW think that resoure management should work....

 

Agreed with this statement.

 

I'm honestly appalled by the fact that the Pyrotech community is treating the act of fishing for the proc as some sort of damage-free burden. The fact is they still do great damage with Rocket Punch and the spamming of Flame Burst, these aren't protected by a tank's defensive abilities either.

 

It's as if the community is screaming, "Oh my god, my target is dying but nevermind that, they're not dying within 6 seconds so my spec is dead. Oh, there my target is finally dead, how dare they live longer than 10 seconds."

 

These guys are worst than the crowd of Operative/Scoundrel players back pre-nerf with their self entitlement.

[exphryl]

Agreed with this statement.

 

I'm honestly appalled by the fact that the Pyrotech community is treating the act of fishing for the proc as some sort of damage-free burden. The fact is they still do great damage with Rocket Punch and the spamming of Flame Burst, these aren't protected by a tank's defensive abilities either.

 

It's as if the community is screaming, "Oh my god, my target is dying but nevermind that, they're not dying within 6 seconds so my spec is dead. Oh, there my target is finally dead, how dare they live longer than 10 seconds."

 

These guys are worst than the crowd of Operative/Scoundrel players back pre-nerf with their self entitlement.

 

I have no idea why you have a thing against Pyros since you post negative comments in every single Pyro thread. Starting to sound like a serious L2P issue on your part.

 

The issue with the change as a whole is NOT the damage as people who are to idiotic to realize that are seeing it, it's the fact HEAT management becomes much more difficult and for the most part unmanageable in the new system.

 

The loss of damage is merely a byproduct of that.

[Varicite]

Oh I understand, your vision of heat management is "I should be always able to use my highest possbile dps move without any penalty and in no risk of overheating"

 

I am sorry, but they took it even from only class that actually could do it (sorcs). I somehow feel that it is not a way BW think that resoure management should work....

 

Actually, my highest possible DPS move is the one that dissipates heat.

 

That was BIOWARE'S vision, not mine. Look at my talent tree and try to tell me that was MY vision, and not theirs. Just lol.

 

But since my heat management is tied to my highest possible DPS move, and it's intended that all 3 specs vent 8 heat every 6 seconds to remain manageable, it stands to reason that we should be able to utilize Rail Shot every 6 seconds.

 

I am sorry that you are too busy antagonizing people to understand this.

[Baconmonster]

Oh I understand, your vision of heat management is "I should be always able to use my highest possbile dps move without any penalty and in no risk of overheating"

 

I am sorry, but they took it even from only class that actually could do it (sorcs). I somehow feel that it is not a way BW think that resoure management should work....

 

If you really think we're upset that we can't spam RS anymore then you've really missed the boat. We had the hardest resource pool to manage BECAUSE OF RNG. Our resource management was luck based, hence hard to manage. Now it's based on luck, and has an ICD. This is beyond stupid, this is beyond ridiculous. I don't want to be able to spam railshot. I also don't want to have to sit there for 10 seconds trying to get it to proc. I want a reliable heat vent, not have to rely on the RNG gods to determine whether I'm god mode RS spam or having to spam rapid shots to get my heat under 20. You really don't understand this spec if you think all of us are sitting here QQing because we can't LOL RS SPAM. So don't sit there and say you understand why we're upset when you clearly are missing the point.

[LoKiei]

It could be changed so there is a 6s cooldown and after that the next flameburst/rocketpunch will always give a free railshot.

 

Anyway with the changes to AP, as long as they go through I am perfectly fine with Pyro being adjusted.

 

AP will be far more entertaining to play.

Edited March 19, 2012 by LoKiei

[Kaarsa]

You missunderstood me. I meant "highest possbile dps move in any given moment" which may mean RS, RP or FS, depending on CD and proc.

 

Spamming FS during new 6sec ICD will be probably bad decision, and powertechs will have to do something else in that period. Now, you just spam FS all the time, because it is damage+chance to get a proc. Either you get a proc and you are goleden or not and you are screwed. After change, you will spam it less and maybe develop some, I dont know, tactic or something?

 

I will write this again, because I think some of posters here lack of basic math skills.

 

You have now 50% more chance for getting a proc from both flame strike and rocket punch. Not some measly 10%, 50% more.

[Poulay]

Up... any feed back from the PTS? Is it as bad as it seems?

 

up .......

[Baconmonster]

You missunderstood me. I meant "highest possbile dps move in any given moment" which may mean RS, RP or FS, depending on CD and proc.

 

Spamming FS during new 6sec ICD will be probably bad decision, and powertechs will have to do something else in that period. Now, you just spam FS all the time, because it is damage+chance to get a proc. Either you get a proc and you are goleden or not and you are screwed. After change, you will spam it less and maybe develop some, I dont know, tactic or something?

 

I will write this again, because I think some of posters here lack of basic math skills.

 

You have now 50% more chance for getting a proc from both flame strike and rocket punch. Not some measly 10%, 50% more.

 

Only reasonable ability during the 4 GCDs is either Unload or Rapid Shots and MAYBE another ability. Otherwise you're too close to the heat cap (40 heat) to fish for a proc after 6 seconds. How does forcing us to use two weapon damage abilites, one being the basic attack allow us to create tactics? Without a reliable heat dump, we still rely on RNG even AFTER the ICD, how can we form tactics during the 6 seconds? We can't, it doesn't fix the problem it just makes it worse. And no, it's not a 50% increase it's around 16.5% increase I'd love to see how you reached a 50% increase though.

[exphryl]

Personally, I feel they should add a passive vent heat talent to every cylinder like HEGC =/

 

Or an ability like Operatives we can click to keep a passive regen going.

[Varicite]

You missunderstood me. I meant "highest possbile dps move in any given moment" which may mean RS, RP or FS, depending on CD and proc.

 

Spamming FS during new 6sec ICD will be probably bad decision, and powertechs will have to do something else in that period. Now, you just spam FS all the time, because it is damage+chance to get a proc. Either you get a proc and you are goleden or not and you are screwed. After change, you will spam it less and maybe develop some, I dont know, tactic or something?

 

I will write this again, because I think some of posters here lack of basic math skills.

 

You have now 50% more chance for getting a proc from both flame strike and rocket punch. Not some measly 10%, 50% more.

 

Do you play a Pyrotech? I'm curious, because I'm not sure what these other moves you want us to use are. I already pepper in Unloads as necessary, and obviously Rapid Shots to keep my heat down.

 

We really don't have an extensive moveset. Other than very slightly different mechanics on our ability to put a DoT on enemies, all 3 specs have a VERY similar playstyle.

 

ST, AP, and Pyro ALL use Flame Burst / Rocket Punch because those are the only moves that we have for damage outside of Rail Shot / Explosive Dart. It's not because we're fishing for procs; the Rail Shot proc mechanic is Pyro's HEAT VENT mechanic. It's meant to proc every 6~ seconds to keep it in line w/ the other two trees.

 

Let me say that again for you: All THREE specs spam FB / RP / RS (on cd) to do our damage. Look at the trees, all three of them boost these abilities, because we just don't have any other abilities to use in a standard rotation.

 

Let me ask you this: would you feel it an engaging and exciting mechanic to have to spam your free basic attack for 6 seconds on every rotation not because you wanted to burst, but because you just did your normal damage rotation?

 

Yeah, neither do we.

 

Also, you are still failing to take into account the 6 second ICD when you do your math on the increased proc rate. Right now on live, we vent around every 6 seconds (on average), as intended.

 

After the change, we will be venting around every 9-10 seconds on average because of both the ICD, and the GCD on having to use at least 1 ability to proc it, and then having to use Rail Shot after that GCD. It's not going to proc every time, obviously, because it's only 45% chance. Rocket Punch's 9 second cd means it WILL NOT be available for the proc window every other rotation, so you can't count on that.

 

Your math on the percentages is fine, but your assumption that we will be doing anything other than using our basic attack a LOT more (as well as running away/dying more) is way off base.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite

[Baconmonster]

Personally, I feel they should add a passive vent heat talent to every cylinder like HEGC =/

 

Or an ability like Operatives we can click to keep a passive regen going.

 

Something like this would be nice. Or if they kept the 6 second ICD and just made it a 100% proc so we could reliably proc our heat vent without being able to RS spam.

[Noollig]

Anyone been on PTS and tried going 12 points into the AP tree for Prototype Cylinder Ventilation, then using HEGC? Heat problems are gone auto venting 8 heat every 6 seconds. still have 25 points for all your railshot damage points.

 

something like this: 4/12/25

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301bMZMsr00MZbIbbdGhM.1

 

Some points can be moved around as preferences go. Rail shot should hit just as hard, the 8% bonus from HEGC helps explosive dart catch up a bit with the loss of TD. Incendiary Missile provides the burn to get the heat vent on railshots.

 

I'll test it when I get home, but if anyone is actually on the PTS now it would be nice to start testing alternative builds that help heat management.

[omarunaoe]

Anyone been on PTS and tried going 12 points into the AP tree for Prototype Cylinder Ventilation, then using HEGC? Heat problems are gone auto venting 8 heat every 6 seconds. still have 25 points for all your railshot damage points.

 

something like this: 4/12/25

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301bMZMsr00MZbIbbdGhM.1

 

Some points can be moved around as preferences go. Rail shot should hit just as hard, the 8% bonus from HEGC helps explosive dart catch up a bit with the loss of TD. Incendiary Missile provides the burn to get the heat vent on railshots.

 

I'll test it when I get home, but if anyone is actually on the PTS now it would be nice to start testing alternative builds that help heat management.

 

Prototype Particle Accelerator will now require Plasma Cell/Cylinder... so that won't work.

[Varicite]

Prototype Particle Accelerator will now require Plasma Cell/Cylinder... so that won't work.

 

Damn, beat me to it. :c

[Noollig]

Prototype Particle Accelerator will now require Plasma Cell/Cylinder... so that won't work.

 

sonuva*****. forgot about that. back to the drawing board.

[Baconmonster]

sonuva*****. forgot about that. back to the drawing board.

 

Hey it was a good try though. Good thinking.

[omarunaoe]

In all honesty, I'm going to wait and see before I make any kind of severe judgement. If our overall performance dips ~10%, we'll still be in pretty good shape as deep pyro. In about 60% of fights, no cost on our interrupt will equate to 8 heat every 8 seconds, so there might be less resource management problems than I expect.

 

That being said... the design of the tree is now just incredibly stupid. Proc + ICD is literally one of the clunkiest interactions in the world of gaming. It's the lazy way out in terms of "fixing" us, and I'd much rather see some kind of major change than deal with poor mechanics.

[Varicite]

In all honesty, I'm going to wait and see before I make any kind of severe judgement. If our overall performance dips ~10%, we'll still be in pretty good shape as deep pyro. In about 60% of fights, no cost on our interrupt will equate to 8 heat every 8 seconds, so there might be less resource management problems than I expect.

 

That being said... the design of the tree is now just incredibly stupid. Proc + ICD is literally one of the clunkiest interactions in the world of gaming. It's the lazy way out in terms of "fixing" us, and I'd much rather see some kind of major change than deal with poor mechanics.

 

Just untie our resource management from Rail Shot procs already, or just make PPA lower the cd to 6 seconds only while using CGC.

[exphryl]

Just untie our resource management from Rail Shot procs already, or just make PPA lower the cd to 6 seconds only while using CGC.

 

*or* they could add that not only does it vent 8 heat but for the next 6 secs (ICD is effect) Heat regen is increased. So once we have to wait for RNG we aren't really in a bad position.

[omarunaoe]

I'd really like to see Incendiary Missile reworked to fix our spec. Lower the heat cost to 16, then add a talent that grants a 20/40/60% chance per tick that we will vent 8 heat with a 6 second ICD. They could replace PPA with that and use talents to lower Rail Shot's base CD to 6-9 seconds and I'd be pretty happy.

[Hethroin]

I just want to get something clear.

 

If I get a proc the 6.0 Seconds ICD window starts from the time I use Rail Shot, and not from the time that I got my proc. Is this correct?

 

The patch note would lead me to believe that I could get a proc, hold Rail Shot for 4.5 seconds (because I wanted to), then use it, get a proc on the following attack and use Rail Shot again.

[omarunaoe]

The cooldown is on the chance for PPA to proc, so it's from proc to proc.

 

You can not have used Rail Shot at all and still start the internal cd by using Flame Burst or Rocket Punch (and thus miss out on a proc entirely and have to wait 6 seconds to start trying for another).