muradi Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Grimaldi nailed it. Nobody should talk about anything but the force alacrity nerf. Anybody that does had no clue about the optimal rotation for the class, those opinions don't matter... I've been crying about it since I've heard it. 12 sec rotations instead of 9 is an enormous nerf. Force Sents/Rage Mara's be just as unhappy about this as well, imo it's still a nerf for them. I will be on my watchman sentinel full time from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpLiciTSainT Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Grimaldi nailed it. Nobody should talk about anything but the force alacrity nerf. Anybody that does had no clue about the optimal rotation for the class, those opinions don't matter... I've been crying about it since I've heard it. 12 sec rotations instead of 9 is an enormous nerf. Force Sents/Rage Mara's be just as unhappy about this as well, imo it's still a nerf for them. I will be on my watchman sentinel full time from now on. Agreed! As for the "tank class" Juggs are not tank class, they lose one DPS tree for a tank tree. If we are a tanking class, we should get more survivability. Which is not the point. To be honest, Grimaldi is talking Marauder too.... Don't you all have force alacrity for your Rage tree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syncronius Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 do u see marauders maintanking bosses in ops?? nope, thats the juggs job, in other words... tanking class. 900k+dmg in a warzone as a powertech? dont make me laugh this would only be possible in a premade group not EVER in a pug. On our server the 500k dmgers are pretty rare let alone a 900k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro- Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I just want to say that my fellow juggs are cry babies, they like having there cake and eating it too. Juggs somehow feel entitled to do damage and have all the perks and benefits of other dps classes, because bw gave us 2 dps trees and 1 tank tree. So somehow that makes us the same as marauders...... None of them takes into consideration regardless of there childish antics that or there lack of wanting to be a tank, that they have options to SWITCH ROLES, meaning...for the whiny juggs out there, if you don't want to do damage today...you can go tank. Gear and Experience aside... Meanwhile the marauders/sents out there got 3 dps trees. So when they don't want to do damage they can.......reroll? Oh wait...they can heal themselves with one tree..that makes them sorta like a healer.... Keep crying and complaining and telling BW that you should be allowed to dps as well as a DPS class because you have dps trees. That argument always works out well in other mmo's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I just want to say that my fellow juggs are cry babies, they like having there cake and eating it too. Juggs somehow feel entitled to do damage and have all the perks and benefits of other dps classes, because bw gave us 2 dps trees and 1 tank tree. So somehow that makes us the same as marauders...... None of them takes into consideration regardless of there childish antics that or there lack of wanting to be a tank, that they have options to SWITCH ROLES, meaning...for the whiny juggs out there, if you don't want to do damage today...you can go tank. Gear and Experience aside... Meanwhile the marauders/sents out there got 3 dps trees. So when they don't want to do damage they can.......reroll? Oh wait...they can heal themselves with one tree..that makes them sorta like a healer.... Keep crying and complaining and telling BW that you should be allowed to dps as well as a DPS class because you have dps trees. That argument always works out well in other mmo's. There's no hybrid tax in SWTOR. There cannot be because MMO Devs realise more than a decade ago it didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro- Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Goretzu, im seriously finding this entertaining, The only way these two classes will ever be the same is if they a. merge them into 1 class or b. give them the marauders a hybrid tree... Otherwise keep trying to convince yourself...juggernauts are not tanks!, juggernauts are not tanks!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Goretzu, im seriously finding this entertaining, The only way these two classes will ever be the same is if they a. merge them into 1 class or b. give them the marauders a hybrid tree... Otherwise keep trying to convince yourself...juggernauts are not tanks!, juggernauts are not tanks!. A Rage spece Juggernaut is not a tank. If Bioware change that somehow then fair enough, but it's not a tank at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro- Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Gore I really do appreciate and understand what your saying but honestly I don't believe thats how its playing out, you are correct and in a perfect world dps would be dps equal across the board and tanks would have the ability to tank but that does not atleast at the moment appear to be the case and again we can talk all day long but bioware is the final decision maker on this. So people can again stomp there feet and pout and cry all they want but they will change the game as they see fit and it will likely go in favor of the marauder as dps unless they revamp there trees and add a hybrid mix to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpLiciTSainT Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Gore I really do appreciate and understand what your saying but honestly I don't believe thats how its playing out, you are correct and in a perfect world dps would be dps equal across the board and tanks would have the ability to tank but that does not atleast at the moment appear to be the case and again we can talk all day long but bioware is the final decision maker on this. So people can again stomp there feet and pout and cry all they want but they will change the game as they see fit and it will likely go in favor of the marauder as dps unless they revamp there trees and add a hybrid mix to them. A tank tree does *not* mean it is only a tank class. Marauders already have a FAR better DPS tree for PVP and PVE. They already out DPS us. Your "cry baby" statements don't even make sense. TOO BE ABO****ELY CLEAR - Rage is DPS and absolutely not a tanking tree. It's good for PVP and OK for PVE. People are not crying to be more than Marauders, they are saying they want a good DPS tree for PVP that provides a different scenario of combat THAN Marauders. If Jugs are purely tanks, than the DPS trees would not have full specs. Nerfing BOTH Marauder & Jug, is MY complaint. NOT, I want to out DPS a Marauder WHICH DOES NOT EXIST. Lucky AOE attacks on multiple targets is nice, but I'd rather have a SINGLE target damage. To summarize, your debate is actually incorrect and on a wrong foundation that doesn't even exist. One ability is what everyone is upset about, Alacrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyllum Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 u need 2 learn 2 play juggernaut cause if your saying giving us 5 more seconds for shockwave and dominate are gonna make us the most op class then u should just reroll... that comment just shows what u know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bananaface Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) just dont mind retro, he is kinda clueless if you look at all his posts (not only in this thread). edit: kinda = completely Edited March 20, 2012 by bananaface Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpLiciTSainT Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 just dont mind retro, he is kinda clueless if you look at all his posts (not only in this thread). edit: kinda = completely Makes sense... he's not even on the same page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quesadilla Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) I fail to see how Marauders tank better than Juggs. They have no skills that increase threat and no taunt to speak of. They have very few ranged skills at all and only 2 useful cooldowns that Juggs don't get; a bubble that is only useful in a pinch when your life total is nearing 0, and a stealth that DROPS AGGRO and doesn't actually stealth you against mobs already aggro'd on you. It's really sad to think how many people still think the Marauder/Sentinel bubble is overpowered, and I promise you that if you reroll one you will be pleasantly surprised at how mistaken you are. Plus Juggs get heavy armor and a shield. Edited March 20, 2012 by Quesadilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finndali Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 u need 2 learn 2 play Seriously now, is it really that hard to write complete words in a frelling game forum? You aren't in a hurry here, and there's no letter count. Its not cool, 1337 or whatever, just lazy and dumb. I have a hard time taking people who can't write complete and comprehensive sentences serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth-Rammstein Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I just want to say that my fellow juggs are cry babies, they like having there cake and eating it too. Juggs somehow feel entitled to do damage and have all the perks and benefits of other dps classes, because bw gave us 2 dps trees and 1 tank tree. So somehow that makes us the same as marauders...... None of them takes into consideration regardless of there childish antics that or there lack of wanting to be a tank, that they have options to SWITCH ROLES, meaning...for the whiny juggs out there, if you don't want to do damage today...you can go tank. Gear and Experience aside... Meanwhile the marauders/sents out there got 3 dps trees. So when they don't want to do damage they can.......reroll? Oh wait...they can heal themselves with one tree..that makes them sorta like a healer.... Keep crying and complaining and telling BW that you should be allowed to dps as well as a DPS class because you have dps trees. That argument always works out well in other mmo's. yet, maras are more tankier than juggs in pvp and on top of that do more damage. interesting......you were saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 It shouldn't go through because they are nerfing Operatives again lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finndali Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I fail to see how Marauders tank better than Juggs. Who ever said Marauders tank better? What they are better at is surviving. And that has absolutely nothing to do with tanking, even though many seem to consider both things to be the same. Tanking means intentionally getting and holding aggro, and then taking the hits (with a healer) until the baddie drops dead. Surviving means having the tools to, well, survive unwanted attention, including things like defensive cooldowns or aggro drops. And its a fact now that the DPS Jugger has less survival tools than the Marauder. Oh, and the effective difference between heavy and medium armor is actually surprisingly small, what do you think why the tank stances all have armor modifiers? And a shield? Utterless worthless argument. Aside from the fact that no DPS specced Jugger would ever use one (instead they wear DPS gear, big surprise i know), shields are effectively useless without Soresu. And guess what, no DPSer would use Soresu, as it gimps Focus and with that damage, and would also rob him of the damage benefits of the other forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quesadilla Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Who ever said Marauders tank better? What they are better at is surviving. And that has absolutely nothing to do with tanking, even though many seem to consider both things to be the same. Tanking means intentionally getting and holding aggro, and then taking the hits (with a healer) until the baddie drops dead. Surviving means having the tools to, well, survive unwanted attention, including things like defensive cooldowns or aggro drops. And its a fact now that the DPS Jugger has less survival tools than the Marauder. Oh, and the effective difference between heavy and medium armor is actually surprisingly small, what do you think why the tank stances all have armor modifiers? And a shield? Utterless worthless argument. Aside from the fact that no DPS specced Jugger would ever use one (instead they wear DPS gear, big surprise i know), shields are effectively useless without Soresu. And guess what, no DPSer would use Soresu, as it gimps Focus and with that damage, and would also rob him of the damage benefits of the other forms. Well for starters, this guy did: You must have missed the part where marauders can tank better than two of the three jugg specs. Oooh yea, "tank based class". **** And a shield is not a worthless argument considering how you are talking about surviving longer. Every class has attacks that you can shield against. Is a shield useful in every situation? Absolutely not, but considering how marauders and snipers do practically nothing except shieldable attacks, this deserves consideration when talking about surviving. I realize that running around with a shield in DPS mode as a Jugg will lower your DPS by whatever the stat difference is, but consideration can still be made for it. As for armor, the "effective difference" between the two isn't so insignificant that it should be ignored. My vanguard in champion gear has 6% more mitigation just from armor than my sentinel. Given that anything with the words "energy damage," "kinetic damage," or weapon damage" are mitigated by armor, Juggs and Guardians have a passive 6% boost in mitigation against most classes whereas sentinels/marauders who who can mitigate 99% of the damage they take for 5 seconds out of every minute and a half (AKA 5.5% mitigation over the duration of the cooldown). Armor is even more important on a Jugg than on a Guardian because both Sage and Shadows' primary DPS moves are kinetic vs. Sorcs' and Assassins' being elemental. Hardly insignificant when talking about surviving. Edited March 21, 2012 by Quesadilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Consider that "tanking" in pvp is taking damage. You can't force a player to attack you, and marauders are far better at taking damage than Juggernauts are, while doing more damage. I don't know how else to spell it out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juppepuppe Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) I dont understand why some here say juggernauts shouldnt be able to do as much dps than marauders. At level 10 you can choose juggernaut or marauder.. on marauder it says dps and on juggernaut it says dps or tank. If you know you're going to play only as dps or want to have two sabers you pick marauder. Me I wanted to have only one saber and do pvp and if im going to do pve id like to go tanking because the servers are full off only dps players. All classes have 3 trees and it is said here many times only one of juggernauts trees is for tanking purpose and other 2 for dps. It doesnt mean if someone plays juggernaut he can only tank.. This would mean if you play bounty hunter you can only be healer or tank BUT NOT AS DPS(yeaahhh right.. nice theory) because mercenaries can spec as healer and powertechs as tank?? get real people Edited March 21, 2012 by Juppepuppe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro- Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I don't think any class "shouldn't" be allowed to do anything, bioware is obviously thinking classes shouldn't be allowed to do certain things. I would love to see a system where they can seperate the effects of pvp and pve as I have many friends who love pve content and I am afraid they will be sadly disappointed especially after the healers take a couple shots to the groin this coming 1.2 patch if all goes live as it is now. The fact is we have all these AC classes and whether its fair or not they are going to balance things out to allow everyone to play. I would totally love to see an upgrade to juggernaut survivabiilty in place of dps, but i am biased as I enjoy immortal spec with my juggernaut. Hopefully..and I do repeat "hope" that bioware can actually find a wayfor everyone to be competitive and effective in both pvp and pve, but I am not holding my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpLiciTSainT Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Double specing would be nice. For the DPS Mara vs Jugg topic. It's already clear here: As DPS Spec: Marauders out live Juggs with better escape tools. Marauders out DPS Juggs with Annulation spec. The advantage to being a DPS Jugg vs DPS Marauder Force Push (1 minute cooldown) Intercede - (Really only useful for Hutball) Taunt - which helps everyone BUT you. I think it's very clear the Marauder is the better DPS player in Warzones. The issue I have with Juggs it not to out spec Marauder but to out live the marauder with direct attacks since we do not have the same escape tools. My issue with the patch is Alacrity being removed which increases all force abilities by 3 seconds. So, Smash is 12 seconds, is intercede now 18 seconds, force leap is now 18 seconds? If someone puts a guard on me, I can keep up with warzone damage with my Sorc Guildy and our Marauder Guildy. If I do not have a guard, since I'm in the middle of combat and do not have an escape utility, I usually do not live long enough to out dps those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyv Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Im amazed these new added stuns doesnt bother people. Useless resolve bar filling. Thats a nerf As immortal these changes are really foul. Cant speak for rage or veng because I dont play those specs enough to be good at them but given the feedback, it would seem that the jugg is getting all round shafted. Thrown gauntlet changes = foul stun on charge change = foul ravager change = so foul ... hollar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidKarbide Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Disclaimer, I play majority PvP Jugg in the Vengeance and Rage tree. Here are my thoughts on this patch: -2s stun on Force Charge: Only good for the Rage tree. While before you would charge and instantly get thrown back, this gives you a 2 second window. It still sucks that you're going to get thrown back after the stun is off and the resolve bar goes up, but that's 2 seconds you didn't have before. Vengeance wise, this is a huge nerf. the talent that allows you to have 4s immunity is now reduced to 2s, shortening the window for them to waste a CC on you. In general it is absolutely NOT needed for the class and i would like to have it replaced by something else. Like an all time immunity to CC for 2s with the vengeance talent increasing that further. However, you can use this to an advantage with Intercede. If you're on a DPS whose being healed, you can charge the healer (2s stun) intercede back to a teammate on the DPS. You now have a healer stunned, a free force scream, 3 more rage, 20% damage reduction to both players and 4s immunity to CC (in the vengeance tree), and 8% more health at relatively no cost to you. You have to work with what you got. -Enraged Defense: This looks interesting, only useful in very certain situations. I mean sure I'll give up a rage for heals, especially if I'm being attacked. You generate enough rage as it is to not have to worry about the loss. Also, for Rage tree, this makes the Enrage skill more beneficial because it allows you to have the effect go even more unnoticed. .:Vengeance Tree:. -Deafening Defense: Hells yea man! Juggernauts have so much more utility than Marauders do, and now they can have the survivability to equate. Also, this makes Enrage Defense even more useful. Heals and damage reduction. Single Saber Mastery: Taking the stance requirement off of this talent is so useful. If you're being targeted you get to now go defensive and still keep the damage increase! It's minor but still very useful. -Rampage: The final tick takes forever to get off and I usually only stick around for the first two. With it now being uninterruptable and giving 2 rage, this skill is now even more useful than just the hard hitting last hit. .:Rage:. -Decimate: This being moved is decent. Now you no longer have to go for the three points in the Vengeance tree to get it. Also, the points in the T1 of Rage suck anyways so this isn't anything bad! -Dominate: Okay this sucks for sure. 1 talent point is a huge deal. However after the changes in the talent trees, maybe there might be nowhere else to put that 1 talent. So in general, probably sucky but not that big of a deal. -Force Alacrity: This also sucks, especially for my sexy hybrid spec i was going for. But with the changes to everything else in the tree (mainly how much easier it is to get your smash procs going), you're probably not really gonna notice the change. On the flip side, it increases Viscious Slash's damage. This mixed with the other talents are gonna make that rage dump even more useful. Any time you would previously have Screamed (mainly the ones that cost rage if you screw up your rotation) you can now viscious slash for so much damage. -Gravity: Call me a scrub, but I don't see the point of this change, what other slows do we have? -Ravager: I already talked about this earlier. Ravage is gonna be soooooooo good after the patch. increased damage and uninterruptable and giving 2 rage. That + Viscious slash = good damage I'd say. -Relentless Fury: As i stated, easier to get shockwave stacks. This talent is what makes the rage tree now. Rage Smash > Rage Force Scream any day. -Obliterate: Are you serious?!! This talent is legendary. Another root, not just an awkward speed bonus! Now you can easily shut down Sorcs who try to sprint away by just obliterating them into the root. Also this opens up the viability of a hybrid spec because you're no longer dependant on the 60% speed increase. -Shockwave duration buff: Situationally useful. Who hates getting 5 stacks and getting thrown off only to Smash 1 second too late. -Through Passion: While Vengeance gets a buff to Enraged Defenses so does Rage. And also, 2 less rage points makes it so much more viable because you don't always get the talent for 4rage when CC'd. -Unbreakable Rage removed: Please tell me you didn't get this... 2minutes for 10%hp. Not the greatest use of talents. However it does suck if you did and now you don't. But either way, I wouldn't have gotten it. As you can see, this is a HUGE buff to juggernauts. While there's small variations in damage, our survivability goes up incredibly. Rage damage is already so good! With the increase in viability of Smash, the damage is gonna be so much more. Maybe not single-target, but that's not what rage is about. Vengeance stays relatively the same, with increased survivability. In the end, juggernauts are gonna be so useful in PvP. Marauders? Really? You want a reason to play a jugg > mara? the utility! I out damage marauders all the time in warzones. The only problem is you don't have the survivablity that they do. FIXED. maybe still not the best face-roll survivability that they have but it's still way better, especially when mixed with what we already have. Also, utility. Juggernauts utility to keep other players alive is insane. Guard, intercede, and the taunts. So much protection. With the change to Single Saber Mastery, having guard up and being in D stance isn't gonna hurt as much. You'll be able to do damage and keep a player alive. Intercede is just the most amazing move in the game, and if you're vengeance you get 20% reduced damage, it saves lives. And the taunts, both single-target and AoE are off the GCD and no rage cost, enough said. The problem with juggernauts were not their damage or utility, but their survivability. With this patch, that changes greatly and is probably the only change they need. Juggernauts shouldn't do as much damage as a marauder but should have better survivability. This patch shows that, our damage gets "nerfed" and our survivability spikes up. It might not be to what specific players have in mind, but that's Bioware working towards a final goal. One last point, are you aware that there's a Vengeance spec. If you haven't noticed from the rest of my post, it's really really really good. The damage might not hit as hard as Rage, but it's single target and the utility is incredible. It might be harder to play, but that just makes it better. All I'm saying, is before you go to your Marauder and lose all the perks of a jugg, go try out Vengeance. Edited March 23, 2012 by LiquidKarbide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finndali Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 20% damage reduction to both players Intercede is just the most amazing move in the game, and if you're vengeance you get 20% reduced damage, it saves lives. Guess you missed that Protector/Huddle is gone? Your survivability and utility boost is a tad less than you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts