Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 This is the truth. This is also more reliable heat venting every six seconds than leaving it up to chance. You know, it looks like we will actually be proc'ing this skill every 9-10 seconds in practice. I'm not really down w/ that, as it starts to hamper our regen kinda severely at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 You know, it looks like we will actually be proc'ing this skill every 9-10 seconds in practice. I'm not really down w/ that, as it starts to hamper our regen kinda severely at that point. At that point you can simply tweek the proc percentages so it's more consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) At that point you can simply tweek the proc percentages so it's more consistent. It's not a matter of tweaking the proc percentages. Even at a 100% proc rate, the FASTEST it can proc will be 7.5 seconds due to the 6 second internal cd and having to use at least 1 ability to proc it. In all likelihood, it won't be made a 100% proc, so 2 abilities will probably need to be used, bringing that time to around 9 seconds. This is a net loss to the average 5-6 second procs that I currently get. You have to tweak the internal cooldown itself if you want heat management to remain relatively the same while culling the back to back procs from our spec. 4.5 I think would be fine, but 3-4 seconds would be ideal. In comparison, AP will still be guaranteed to vent 8 heat every 6 seconds, and a tank while shielding in PvE will also have a very similar heat dissipation rate due to Shield Vents and not having to actually use 2 abilities that trigger the GCD in order to vent heat. Pyro is just stuck at a longer base hate dissipation rate than the other two trees because of the way the Rail Shot mechanic works. (Edit: I meant to spell "heat" instead of "hate" in the above sentence, but I'm going to leave it because it still makes sense. Hehe.) Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 -snip- All well and good, the point I was getting at is that an internal cooldown on PPA isn't bad, they might just have to adjust numbers before it's where we want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) All well and good, the point I was getting at is that an internal cooldown on PPA isn't bad, they might just have to adjust numbers before it's where we want it. Yeah, I don't mind the cd on PPA, it just brings it in line w/ other skills of its nature. The only real gripe I have is that heat regen is tied to it, and in culling burst, I'm concerned there isn't going to be anything to compensate. It still remains to be seen, of course, and it might get tweaked. But we know BW's track record lately on how thoroughly they've tested class changes before implementing them. Perhaps 1.2 will be different. Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Yeah, I don't mind the cd on PPA, it just brings it in line w/ other skills of its nature. The only real gripe I have is that heat regen is tied to it, and in culling burst, I'm concerned there isn't going to be anything to compensate. It still remains to be seen, of course, and it might get tweaked. But we know BW's track record lately on how thoroughly they've tested class changes before implementing them. Perhaps 1.2 will be different. And I don't remember them changing ever patch notes related to class Balance. My only hope stands with my experience with WoW where negative player feedback had the possibility of making an impact on the balances. (However few times this happened) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Here's to hoping.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdlauri Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The problem is this, it won't be a rail shot every 6 secs, its going to be more in the realms of 8 - 9 sec rail shot cd's (No idea if someone has already mentioned this, and after reading my post, if someone can comfirm something different, please do) By rights any procs on particle inside the 6 sec cooldown will be not counted. So its only anything after the 6 sec internal cd will it have a chance to proc. Further taking into consideration that the more likely to proc skill (rocket punch) will very likely be on cd/blown within the 6 sec internal cd timer, the likely hood of having a rocket punch ready to go immediantly after the internal 6 sec cd, and be in melee range is pretty low. So that leaves flameburst, will take approx 2 flame bursts for a proc, add a couple of GCD and you have a more realistic fire rate of 8-9 secs. He is 100% right not only will you have to wait 6 sec for cool down but you will have to FB/RP from 1-3 times and maybe more for it to proc. So my suggestion to make this NERF a little less terrible is to put the PROC on stand by so if anytime it triggers before the 6 sec cool down it will be ready to use which will be most of the time. OR I have posted this before why not just decrease RS damage say by 10% and leave the proc as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 He is 100% right not only will you have to wait 6 sec for cool down but you will have to FB/RP from 1-3 times and maybe more for it to proc. So my suggestion to make this NERF a little less terrible is to put the PROC on stand by so if anytime it triggers before the 6 sec cool down it will be ready to use which will be most of the time. OR I have posted this before why not just decrease RS damage say by 10% and leave the proc as is. IT would still be OP. The best suggestion i've heard is to make PPA instead of the proc, make the talent reduce railshot cd by 7.5 and vent the 8 heat whenever you use rail shot. RNG is done, proc is done, but it still maintains the same number of uses of rail shot in the same minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdlauri Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 That would actually work well. The only thing is that most people like the proc based talent for excitement and fun factor but I do like your idea as well. The way it is right now ruins the spec and with AP being useless Power teks have no viable pvp dps spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 That would actually work well. The only thing is that most people like the proc based talent for excitement and fun factor but I do like your idea as well. The way it is right now ruins the spec and with AP being useless Power teks have no viable pvp dps spec I'm curious if any of your guildies have tried out the new AP changes? I know it still suffers from some core mechanics issues, but I was wondering how it compares to the new and gutted Pyro, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdlauri Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 My guild are pyro or tank spec none of them play AP because its not viable and with the changes I have seen it still doesnt look viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 My guild are pyro or tank spec none of them play AP because its not viable and with the changes I have seen it still doesnt look viable. If Pyro really does need to spam Rapid Shots for 6 seconds to keep heat manageable, the new AP sounds just as viable as the new Pyro. Is the heat management really that bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowmon Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 the CD was expected tbh, but 6 secs is a bit of a p*ss take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 If Pyro really does need to spam Rapid Shots for 6 seconds to keep heat manageable, the new AP sounds just as viable as the new Pyro. Is the heat management really that bad? Well it doesn't make it "viable" if both specs equally suck now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowmon Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) edit: brain fart moment Edited March 19, 2012 by snowmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigen Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 So the ability finally gets the nerf it deserved. Seriously it was stupidly OP and 3 times more effective then any other heat reducing ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) So the ability finally gets the nerf it deserved. Seriously it was stupidly OP and 3 times more effective then any other heat reducing ability. So it should be half as effective as any other heat reduction ability now? For the spec that had far more heat problems than the other two..? That doesn't sound at all like "what it deserved", and more like you're just happy one of your hard counters got nerfed into the ground. Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigen Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 So it should be half as effective as any other heat reduction ability now? For the spec that had far more heat problems than the other two..? That doesn't sound at all like "what it deserved", and more like you're just happy one of your hard counters got nerfed into the ground. This spec has no more heat problems then the other specs. Thats a myth. Second part its not halved it is brought in line with the other heat reducers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) This spec has no more heat problems then the other specs. Thats a myth. Second part its not halved it is brought in line with the other heat reducers. First, you're just flat wrong, as I have played the 2 dps specs extensively in PvP, and I can assure you that it does indeed have more problems than AP. 8 heat vented passively every 6 seconds is WAY better than the RNG 8 heat vented ~6 seconds on average by Pyro, from a resource standpoint. You know all those times that you're high on heat and have to move toward another fray spamming Rapid Shots to try to cool down? Yeah, AP is still venting during those times. Second, ST has TWO heat vent mechanics at play, one of them an on-demand heat vent ability that does damage on a 15 second cd on top of Shield Vents which will vent heat every 6 seconds in PvE. Third, it's more like 50% less resource regen, not quite 100% but still a huge hit to our regen mechanic, because of the internal cooldown on the proc rate. You have a 6 second window where it CANNOT proc. Then you need to use an ability that MAY proc it. Then you need to wait for the GCD so that you can actually use Rail Shot to vent heat. That's 7.5 seconds in the BEST possible circumstance, already lagging behind both other specs heat management mechanics. It will not proc on the first ability (Flame Burst, which I explained to you in the last post) all the time, so you need to add at least 1 more GCD to the mix for average. Now you're sitting at 9 seconds to proc Rail Shot. I don't know what planet you're from that 9 = 6, but it's not this one. They should just lower the ICD to ~4 seconds so that we can at least vent heat around the 6 second mark (like the other 2 specs) in best possible circumstances, or just change PPA's proc effect to lower Rail Shot's cd to 6 seconds altogether. Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 People only remember the times that PPA proc'd a couple of times in a row and destroyed them. No one ever remembers when we overheated while waiting for Rail Shot to come off of CD. Live and die by the sword. With the new internal cooldown, we will only die by the sword imo. The ICD is too long. 4 GCDs, really? Heat is going to be a serious problem. I would have much rather seen Bioware take all RNG out of Rail Shot and just have PPA reduce the cooldown to a number that Bioware felt was fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanofSF Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 This is really depressing to read in the patch notes. I think this is going to be a big nerf. I agree that at times this can be OP, but 6 seconds? That can be an eternity in pvp. I think 4 seconds is more reasonable. I get the idea that this is supposed to create consistency, but one reason I like the random aspect of the build is because I don't have to play my toon like a robot. I don't feel like there are any different filler abilities that will make pyro very fun to play anymore as well as decent damage....just going to be doing the same thing and after the 6 secs hopefully it will proc with the increased probablilty and get the RS.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleMagick Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I don't think rail shot and flame burst were designed to be spammed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I don't feel like there are any different filler abilities that will make pyro very fun to play anymore as well as decent damage....just going to be doing the same thing and after the 6 secs hopefully it will proc with the increased probablilty and get the RS.... Get ready for a build/class that is RS focused. And no, RS doesn't stand for Rail Shot, it stands for Rapid Shots. ZZZZzzzzz. I don't think rail shot and flame burst were designed to be spammed. But apparently after this change and the Heat and damage problems that will ensue, Rapid Shots will need to be spammed. Edited March 19, 2012 by Sevvy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 This is really depressing to read in the patch notes. I think this is going to be a big nerf. I agree that at times this can be OP, but 6 seconds? That can be an eternity in pvp. I think 4 seconds is more reasonable. I get the idea that this is supposed to create consistency, but one reason I like the random aspect of the build is because I don't have to play my toon like a robot. I don't feel like there are any different filler abilities that will make pyro very fun to play anymore as well as decent damage....just going to be doing the same thing and after the 6 secs hopefully it will proc with the increased probablilty and get the RS.... I think that 4~ second would actually give us the effect that BW intended, which is to RS every 6 seconds under the best circumstances. "8 heat every 6 seconds" is the BH standard, so I really think that's what they were trying to give us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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