Missandei Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) As a tank you're not supposed to be focusing on damage... Pure KC is more viable than any hybrid or dps spec at the current moment. So, yeah, you need to forcibly be a tank. If im not focusing on damage then what Im supposed to do in WZs? Really.. Yes i`m more viable than others, but where is the fun? I just die more slowly not dealing any inconvenience to the skilled enemy.. And skiiled enemy will never waste time dealing with me, while there is a bunch of dps-ers around.. So yup.. i can run around, applying Mass Taunt and if i`m lucky, using the Slow Time and Force Breach on a cluster of enemies.. Maybe if Spinnig Strike unlocks at 40% of HP there will be more fun.. And as i already stated, Shadow shiled`s must deflect\mitigate force/PT damage.. That`s will bring more fun in gameplay.. Edited March 17, 2012 by Missandei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) If im not focusing on damage then what Im supposed to do in WZs? Really.. Yes i`m more viable than others, but where is the fun? I just die more slowly not dealing any inconvenience to the skilled enemy.. And skiiled enemy will never waste time dealing with me, while there is a bunch of dps-ers around.. So yup.. i can run around, applying Mass Taunt and if i`m lucky, using the Slow Time and Force Breach on a cluster of enemies.. Maybe if Spinnig Strike unlocks at 40% of HP there will be more fun.. And as i already stated, Shadow shiled`s must deflect\mitigate force/PT damage.. That`s will bring more fun in gameplay.. So, is it you and you alone vs the other team? YOU are the tank. Let your DPSers focus on damage because that is there role. Your role is to guard, debuff, harass and be a constant nuisance to the enemy team. A tank is so beneficial to the team... Edited March 17, 2012 by Xinika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnesium Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Pure Kinetic is useless in PvP.. Dude... there is no try. Seriously, KC is an awesome spec in PvP and played correctly is one of the best PvP Group classes about and has amazing utility and you can still DPS well enough, I end up topping DPS in many cases because I last a lot longer and dish out more DPS for that sole reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missandei Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 So, is it you and you alone vs the other team? YOU are the tank. Let your DPSers focus on damage because that is there role. Your role is to guard, debuff, harass and be a constant nuisance to the enemy team. A tank is so beneficial to the team... Ahh.. there is indeed are rare occasions when a team is played as team.. And it`s a indeed a fun play.. Though.. More often all mates is just running mindlessly around grinding their points.. And that`s why i`d like some buff to Shadow tanks.. And seriously.. Why Tanks should suffer from useless shield in PvP.. Shield have to bring at least some benefits as it is a crucial skill in PvE.. and even the PvP Survival set is have a shield piece as a component.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missandei Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Dude... there is no try. Seriously, KC is an awesome spec in PvP and played correctly is one of the best PvP Group classes about and has amazing utility and you can still DPS well enough, I end up topping DPS in many cases because I last a lot longer and dish out more DPS for that sole reason. Yup.. sorry that i maybe do a little trolling here as i usually ending Wzs with above average results, but i really want to know how to do better.. Can you explain how you play? Your tanking PvP experience and etc.... please? Edited March 17, 2012 by Missandei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goukes Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ahh.. there is indeed are rare occasions when a team is played as team.. And it`s a indeed a fun play.. Though.. More often all mates is just running mindlessly around grinding their points.. And that`s why i`d like some buff to Shadow tanks.. And seriously.. Why Tanks should suffer from useless shield in PvP.. Shield have to bring at least some benefits as it is a crucial skill in PvE.. and even the PvP Survival set is have a shield piece as a component.. So what you are trying to say is that you play in terrible groups, so your already extremely viable(arguably too strong spec) should be buffed even more so you can 1vsX warzones all day? Get real, kinetic combat has great survivability and also deals good damage. Its sustained damage, while being less bursty, is not so very far away from real dps specs, if anything its damage is too high for its great survivability. Shield in pvp is not completely useless but i am not getting into that discussion again, i do agree though they could rework the shield/defense system in regards to pvp somewhat to make defensive stats have a greater impact in pvp, but if they did that, it would increase kc survivability even more, and they would definitely have to reduce its damageoutput by a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missandei Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Get real, kinetic combat has great survivability and also deals good damage. Its sustained damage, while being less bursty, is not so very far away from real dps specs, if anything its damage is too high for its great survivability. Ok.. Then i have one more question about gearing.. Why is PvE and PvP gear are so unequal? My current gear is mostly a columi PvE (tier 2 gear) and while i have a lot of PvP tier 2 commendations i can`t force myself to trade PvE gear for a PvP one.. I`ll suffer from a great loss of stats if i do so.. Something of -200 Willpower and -160 Endurance points for a +500 Expertise gain.. Is expertise really worth it? What i gain? +10% of damage? But damage is already not the stat to look for a Tank.. +10% of defense? Hmm.. Just now i wait till i hit 60Valor to start gearing in BM armor.. I was unpleasantly surprised by increased Valor points requirement to level up after Valor 50lvl hit.. And begin to consider to dress up in a Tier 2 PvP gear.. But is it really worth it? Edited March 17, 2012 by Missandei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnesium Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ok.. Then i have one more question about gearing.. Why is PvE and PvP gear are so unequal? My current gear is mostly a columi PvE (tier 2 gear) and while i have a lot of PvP tier 2 commendations i can`t force myself to trade PvE gear for a PvP one.. I`ll suffer from a great loss of stats if i do so.. Something of -200 Willpower and -160 Endurance points for a +500 Expertise gain.. Is expertise really worth it? What i gain? +10% of damage? But damage is already not the stat to look for a Tank.. +10% of defense? Hmm.. Just now i wait till i hit 60Valor to start gearing in BM armor.. I was unpleasantly surprised by increased Valor points requirement to level up after Valor 50lvl hit.. And begin to consider to dress up in a Tier 2 PvP gear.. But is it really worth it? Exp as a Tank helps you take 10% LESS damage and you also will heal 10% more with your self heals. The 10% damage is nothing to sniff at, as it goes against someone with 10% exp, otherwise you have a 20% shift in DPS done and received. THe bigger problem was Exp DR, but that should have been fixed, so let's see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnesium Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Yup.. sorry that i maybe do a little trolling here as i usually ending Wzs with above average results, but i really want to know how to do better.. Can you explain how you play? Your tanking PvP experience and etc.... please? I think most people who play the KC build will have a similar style/setup. You need to really have both the Survivor Gear and Stalker, at least 2 of each and really adjust the mods on the stalker for more DPS. You do a LOT more AOE in KC over Infil and its all Force (ignore Whirling) which has no bearing on armour values. Decide between going for procs for Project or building Tele at 3x Harnassed Shadows etc, thats just DPS side. Your 30% Slow, 5% less damage to everyone in that AOE is huge, the taunts reduce damage by 30%. Then your ability to remove your slows with Force Speed and Pull with Force Pull and Wave with that skill add so much utility with good Survival skills and decent sustained DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurugar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Nerf. Kinetic. Now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missandei Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Exp as a Tank helps you take 10% LESS damage and you also will heal 10% more with your self heals. The 10% damage is nothing to sniff at, as it goes against someone with 10% exp, otherwise you have a 20% shift in DPS done and received. THe bigger problem was Exp DR, but that should have been fixed, so let's see. The question is that if i loose 150 Endurance it will cost me 1500HP.. And as heal skills are bound to total Endurance, i have a 10% decrease of Healing by lowering my Endurance.. Ok it compensates by +10% Heal from Expertise.. 1500Hp as a 10% is a 150 000 Hp taken.. ok.. i suspect that usually i receive more damage in Wzs so maybe 10% of damage reduction is really helps.. But nevertheless, PvP and PvE gear of the same tier should not have such a drastic difference in stats.. Now the PvP BM (tier 3) is somewhat equal to PvP Columi (tier 2) Edited March 17, 2012 by Missandei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missandei Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Nerf. Kinetic. Now. «Nerf the Kinetic» should be considered as a swear and forbidden to be used on swtor forums! Edited March 17, 2012 by Missandei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaramis Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Back to the original topic... it's interesting that the Shadow was more or less overlooked for changes. Pretty much every class got major changes except the Shadow/Assassin. As for our specs: Kinetic is where it needs to be, really. If anything, a few minor tweaks. But I'd say it's very powerful as it is. It can easily handle PvE tanking, and has major advantages in PvP with guard, taunt, self-heals, etc. Infiltration could be improved a little, as could Balance, but as a previous poster mentioned, they're not too far off from where they should be. I like some of Xinika's ideas on the Infiltration thread - having it more of a "unstealth, unleash hell, and re-stealth" harrasser could be quite fun, and what I had initially assumed the Shadow's role would have been. Balance could use a minor boost in Sever Force and Force Breach. Since DoTs no longer prevent capping, they may as well either boost their damage or shorten their duration. Because as it stands, the majority of Balance damage comes from Double Strike and Mind Crush, with the occasional FiB crit. Throwing out a DoT that takes almost 20 sec to finish and does a mere 2k damage isn't going to be a huge dps boost, either way (I mostly use them for free focus, which is saying something). But as others have said, no changes may be a blessing in disguise. Could be worse Edited March 17, 2012 by Aaramis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 But as others have said, no changes may be a blessing in disguise. Could be worse Let's not forget they're alternating the damage ratios with gear for tanks so... I wouldn't get too excited... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverRose Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I wasn't aware this was broken? Yeah, take lvl 10 naked sage and lvl 10 naked shadow, cast project and enjoy exactly the same numbers. Our sith mirrors have exactly the same problem btw. Shadow's training doesn't work (Tested it 1 week ago). Seeing as we're generally project-dependant (At least as KC/Infil, a little bit less on balance but still being used) I find it ridiculous. Edited March 18, 2012 by NeverRose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaar Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Both of our DPS trees need help and they choose to do nothing. I really did not see a nerf coming to KC because it's still the worst tank. I'm disappointed. They're forcing us to go KC or scrape by with Balance. Both of which, are easily replaced. I have to agree, I was hoping they would make some adjustments. I would like to have more viable specs, unless I'm premade with really good healers I see no reason/benefit from running Inf/balance over KC. It's a shame, because I'm bored senseless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasosKot Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I have to agree, I was hoping they would make some adjustments. I would like to have more viable specs, unless I'm premade with really good healers I see no reason/benefit from running Inf/balance over KC. It's a shame, because I'm bored senseless I agree with you they should make infil viable:mad: atm KC is rly good spec at least i own everything with it. But i m so disappointed with the 1.2 patch. Every class got some balance/nerf-balance/buff except us. And sentinels/marauders will be rly benefit from this patch Edited March 18, 2012 by TasosKot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragamer Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Erm... well. Asking for changes now is a mistake. If you have bothered to REALLY check the changes on other classes you will understand the 2 goals pursued (I have still pending a good checkout on Sentinel changes, btw, and I'm not speaking about sitting there reading the notes... I refer to really see the new changes in action): - Increase Attention to Resource Management. - Kill Hybrids. I hope that you understand why Shadows aren't included... It happened for us already. BW is throwing a Tactical Warhead to the balance status of the game on 1.2... Would you like to be catched on the shockwave? Or seek cover to survive it to look around how the battlefield is shaped... And then ask for the right changes to adapt to the new scenario? It's better to ask for the right changes, believe me, because what's problem now can be an advantage later... ...I don't want to play a FOTM class, even by accident. Edited March 18, 2012 by ragamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anelyn Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Just change all dots to do internal damage for balance / madness spec, to have an equal percent of dmg increase on all armor types. Seriously kinetic dmg dots on a tank is disheartening at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaramis Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Yeah, take lvl 10 naked sage and lvl 10 naked shadow, cast project and enjoy exactly the same numbers. Our sith mirrors have exactly the same problem btw. Shadow's training doesn't work (Tested it 1 week ago). Seeing as we're generally project-dependant (At least as KC/Infil, a little bit less on balance but still being used) I find it ridiculous. It's been broken since day 1, yet all of us have really had no problems at all levelling with the "broken" Project. IMO, buffing it as per the Shadow's Training amounts, would be horribly broken. Infils and KC's bursting for 10k Projects? Umm....yeah, no. It's fine where is it currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawStanz Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) As a general design decision Bioware seems to have made the reasonable choice to balance the other classes down (nerf) rather then balance weaker specs up (buff). I personally like that choice because nothing can ruin a game faster than power inflation. Edited March 18, 2012 by LawStanz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OysterCatcherr Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I have to agree, I was hoping they would make some adjustments. I would like to have more viable specs, unless I'm premade with really good healers I see no reason/benefit from running Inf/balance over KC. It's a shame, because I'm bored senseless Just make the switch. This is a game, surely, and SHOULD be about having fun. That is a good enough reason for switching from (what I agree is horribly boring) Kinetic Spec, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverRose Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) It's been broken since day 1, yet all of us have really had no problems at all levelling with the "broken" Project. IMO, buffing it as per the Shadow's Training amounts, would be horribly broken. Infils and KC's bursting for 10k Projects? Umm....yeah, no. It's fine where is it currently. So why did they include it i na first place? I agree it would be an overkill probably, but it basically means 1 of our abilities is wasted. Change it to "reduce cost of project by X" or something. Or remove it alltogether. Edited March 21, 2012 by NeverRose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 So did they include it i na first place? I agree it would be an overkill probably, but it basically means 1 of our abilities is wasted. Change it to "reduce cost of project by X" or something. Or remove it alltogether. This. The point is that its broken and a bugged lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardya Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I would kill for a find weakness animation like the Assassin has. That is my biggest weakness as a deception shadow in PvP, i miss it all the time. Edited March 18, 2012 by richardya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts