Expertise scales better for healers

[islander]

Trauma.

 

/end thread (oh and L2P)

 

this.

 

not to mention the fact that pure healers can't do crap for DPS while specced as such. I hit like a wet noodle with 700 force power. The only way I'm soloing a melee is if I have a LOT of space to run while I wait for bleeds to slowly ebb away at my 18k hit point opponent that, in melee range, can EASILY drop 6-8k damage in seconds on my ***.

 

PS: I can't heal and run either. I have to stand still. Works out real well, let me tell you.

 

trauma does not negate the healing bonus from expertise.

 

this is why some healers are unkillable, because they are able to negate expertise bonus damage yet get a huge boost to healing from their own expertise

 

No healer is unkillable that I'm aware of. They have this thing called an interrupt.

Edited March 15, 2012 by islander

[Yeren]

This is a non-issue, focus fire will destory healer heavy teams ... like they have in every mmo before swtor.

 

wrong ... against a 3 or 4 healer team .... if 3 guys are healing 1 person ..... they won't die. I've rarely been no the opposite side where we had 3 or 4 healers ..... we rolled against teams with only 1 MAYBE 2 heals. Even if do manage to get 1 healer down ... they are back into the fight after respawn before you can get another one down.

[gwrtheyn]

focus fire does not work vs 3+ healers

 

a. aoe cc,aoe kick etc

b. guard,aoe taunts

c. healers speeds/getting pulled

 

1dd can only kill 1heal if he interupts the heals->

 

2dd can not kill 2heal by focus,since the second healer gets no interupts->

 

kill 1 heal+guard needs a focus of 3+dds and a lot time

 

Edit: dmg gets reduced by armor,%less,expt,guard,taunts,heal getting not reduced by one of them

Edited March 15, 2012 by gwrtheyn

[islander]

wrong ... against a 3 or 4 healer team .... if 3 guys are healing 1 person ..... they won't die. I've rarely been no the opposite side where we had 3 or 4 healers ..... we rolled against teams with only 1 MAYBE 2 heals. Even if do manage to get 1 healer down ... they are back into the fight after respawn before you can get another one down.

 

Now this I can kinda agree with.

 

2 healers focusing on healing a third will make him unkillable.

 

The question is, from a warzone perspective, what good is that? Really.

 

in Huttball, it's okay if he's the ball carrier. Although there's still knockbacks and what not that neutralize any 'immortality'.

In Alderaan, it's a complete waste of resources to do this. Voidstar, slightly less so.

 

Ilum/mass pvp? This simply isn't happening in a large battle.

 

So I wonder honestly, what is the problem? If a DPSer is being healed by 3 sources, he's not dying either.

[Gosten]

If we're talking 1v1 with a healer vs a dps, then there's another issue at play. The healer gets full benefit from the defensive aspect of expertise while the dps gets very little benefit from it. That's because the damage reduction only matters if you're actually taking damage. The healer is taking a ton of damage and the dps is barely taking any. Your damage is 10% stronger, his heals are 10% stronger, but he gains the defensive benefit while you don't. That means if his heals can cancel out your dps, then the healer with his tiny damage output will eventually kill you.

 

Win or lose, you've taken the healer out of the fight for a significant time by beating on him.

[Orangerascal]

wrong ... against a 3 or 4 healer team .... if 3 guys are healing 1 person ..... they won't die. I've rarely been no the opposite side where we had 3 or 4 healers ..... we rolled against teams with only 1 MAYBE 2 heals. Even if do manage to get 1 healer down ... they are back into the fight after respawn before you can get another one down.

 

If 3 guys or even 10 guys heal 1 person, this won't prevent them from being globalled. Statements like this tell me you have not played pvp in a proper pvp group.

[Llenyd]

If we're talking 1v1 with a healer vs a dps, then there's another issue at play. The healer gets full benefit from the defensive aspect of expertise while the dps gets very little benefit from it. That's because the damage reduction only matters if you're actually taking damage. The healer is taking a ton of damage and the dps is barely taking any. Your damage is 10% stronger, his heals are 10% stronger, but he gains the defensive benefit while you don't. That means if his heals can cancel out your dps, then the healer with his tiny damage output will eventually kill you.

 

The last sentence contradicts the rest of the paragraph. The healer's tiny damage output is reduced by expertise the same as every one else. The DPS gains the same defensive bonus.

[islander]

If we're talking 1v1 with a healer vs a dps, then there's another issue at play. The healer gets full benefit from the defensive aspect of expertise while the dps gets very little benefit from it. That's because the damage reduction only matters if you're actually taking damage. The healer is taking a ton of damage and the dps is barely taking any. Your damage is 10% stronger, his heals are 10% stronger, but he gains the defensive benefit while you don't. That means if his heals can cancel out your dps, then the healer with his tiny damage output will eventually kill you.

 

Win or lose, you've taken the healer out of the fight for a significant time by beating on him.

 

and this last sentence specifically, is why I often simply LET dpsers kill me in Huttball (unless I get assistance).

In most cases I'm hurting my team more by dueling it out then just eating the death and getting back into the action in like a third of the time.

 

When I want to do more 1 on 1 combat, I log into my trooper.

Edited March 15, 2012 by islander

[Yeren]

Now this I can kinda agree with.

 

2 healers focusing on healing a third will make him unkillable.

 

The question is, from a warzone perspective, what good is that? Really.

 

in Huttball, it's okay if he's the ball carrier. Although there's still knockbacks and what not that neutralize any 'immortality'.

In Alderaan, it's a complete waste of resources to do this. Voidstar, slightly less so.

 

Ilum/mass pvp? This simply isn't happening in a large battle.

 

So I wonder honestly, what is the problem? If a DPSer is being healed by 3 sources, he's not dying either.

 

Agreed mass pvp is different than the warzone situation. More specifically on that is that it gets SUPER spread out compared to warzone battle which is usually not done this way. In Voidstar a 2 heal 1 dps group can keep a 5 man team occupied so the other door can be overwhelmed (we've done it) and the turrets in alderaan are similar in nature. Alderaan is even worse when it comes to stealth. Those that are stealth can do enough damage to typically wipe out the 1 person guarding a turret while trying to cap a second.

 

I've done enough warzones to see multiple strategies and the stealth strategy in ACW is the most annoying as there is no reaction time. Stealthers kill the defenders and cap before reinforcements can be made.

 

Again ... Mass pvp is different and in the end does get significantly different outcome than warzones. We get steamrolled in warzones, but given even footing we would steamroll in mass pvp like ilum.

[HooverHog]

Lace, you must have the sickest DPSers in the game if you can focus down a guarded healer with 3 other healers healing/CCing. Maybe it's just that I PUG with really bad DPS that can't focus on anything (and that is truly a possibility), but while I agree with you that Rated Warzones will highlight certain imbalances, I disagree on what those imbalances will reflect.

 

Back to the OPs topic, your blog does an excellent job of analyzing stats, but I don't believe you can simply say healers get a lower coefficient from their main stat, thus they heal for less, because you are leaving out the individual skill coefficients. If heals did not have amazing skill coefficients, my level 46 Sorc friend would not be firing off 5K-6K heals (in PvE, mind you) with his 220 Bonus Healing and 50% Crit Multiplier while my 49 Mara does 3K damage Force Screams with a ~100% Crit Multiplier and 300 bonus damage.

 

I haven't done any kind of testing on what individual skill coefficients are, but you have an example using shadow strike, so I would assume you have done at least some testing. If you are looking for a new article, I would certainly be interested to see what skills are gaining the most bang for your buck.

Edited March 15, 2012 by HooverHog

[gwrtheyn]

Huttball 2-3 heal hold the middel,rest pass ball chain -> win

 

Alderaan 1heal+1 tank @ first bo,rest getts second,1heal+1 tanksecond bo,rest between -> win(getting 1 heal+tank team down is not possible until rest 4 are there)

 

Voidstar 1 heal+tank @ both doors,4 running where the action is def

2 heal+2 tank+4x will burn one side most of the time -> win(or 50% chance of win)

 

Edit:4heal,2tank,2dd happens a lot the last 3 weeks

Edited March 15, 2012 by gwrtheyn

[Yeren]

If 3 guys or even 10 guys heal 1 person, this won't prevent them from being globalled. Statements like this tell me you have not played pvp in a proper pvp group.

 

And statements like yours tell me you haven't faced many of these groups.

[Drilberg]

this makes no sense at all , the way dps get MORE dps out of pve gear vs expertise, that exact same way wll a healer get MORE healing out of pve gear vs expertise, so going a mix as healer might mean you'll take more dmg , but you also HEAL more. stop being ignortant , mix of pvp & pve is best for ANYONE

[Orangerascal]

I haven't done any kind of testing on what individual skill coefficients are, but you have an example using shadow strike, so I would assume you have done at least some testing. If you are looking for a new article, I would certainly be interested to see what skills are gaining the most bang for your buck.

 

Unfortunately I've not had time to write new articles. You could look at torhead.com or search the sithwarrior.com database and look for abilities with the highest coefficients.

 

I'm sure something like the scoundrels shoot first has a ridiculously high coefficient.

[Orangerascal]

And statements like yours tell me you haven't faced many of these groups.

 

Like I said, let's wait for rated warfronts shall we? We will see just how good these groups do

 

I'm going to give you a hint ... in the thread with the what group would you run for 8v8, no competitive guild mentioned 4 healers

Edited March 15, 2012 by Orangerascal

[islander]

 

 

In Voidstar a 2 heal 1 dps group can keep a 5 man team occupied so the other door can be overwhelmed (we've done it) and the turrets in alderaan are similar in nature. Alderaan is even worse when it comes to stealth. Those that are stealth can do enough damage to typically wipe out the 1 person guarding a turret while trying to cap a second.

 

 

I snipped the important part here.

 

1) Voidstar: If 5 people can't kill 1 of the 2 healers then they are simply bad. Attacking the DPSer is idiocy past the first 10 seconds, when the realization should arrive that he's being healed for 3-4k health a second by the other two.

 

2) Alderaan: Now you're talking about stealth versus healers, not sure where you are going with this. Honestly though, when we (4 man + pug obviously) take turrets we never leave one person there. Maybe if we're in a side/middle situation, then we'll assign a good duelist there.

 

Typically, we assign 2 though, a duelist and a healer.

 

if I'm missing a point you're trying to make, say so. I'm always open to learning more about pvP mechanics, you can never know enough.

Edited March 15, 2012 by islander

[Yeren]

Like I said, let's wait for rated warfronts shall we? We will see just how good these groups do

 

I'm going to give you a hint ... in the thread with the what group would you run for 8v8, no competitive guild mentioned 4 healers

 

Got to wait and see what happens with the DPS changes coming (you know those non nerfs that were mentioned at the Guild Summit).

[islander]

FYI i'm not talking about 1-49 pvp, or fresh 50 healer vs champion dps. I'm considering both sides champion + gear.

 

This is something that should be highlighted.

 

PvP combat is WAY different at established 50 then anything else before it.

[Yeren]

I snipped the important part here.

 

1) Voidstar: If 5 people can't kill 1 of the 2 healers then they are simply bad. Attacking the DPSer is idiocy past the first 5-10 seconds, when the realization should arrive that he's being healed for 3-4k health a second.

 

2) Alderaan: Now you're talking about stealth versus healers, not sure where you are going with this. Honestly though, when we (4 man + pug obviously) take turrets we never leave one person there. Maybe if we're in a side/middle situation, then we'll assign a good duelist there.

 

Typically, we assign 2 though, a duelist and a healer.

 

And by the time you change focus .... bomb has been planted on the other door. See how that worked?

 

Alderaan ... I just made reference to the most impossible strategy to counter that I've seen so far. I agree 2 is best at a turret, but against some of the teams that I've come up against 2 full heals and a hybrid (or 2) troopers ... you need all the DPS you can get.

 

I can't wait for 8 man queues .... some of the "other 4" .... just wow.

[islander]

And by the time you change focus .... bomb has been planted on the other door. See how that worked?

Alderaan ... I just made reference to the most impossible strategy to counter that I've seen so far. I agree 2 is best at a turret, but against some of the teams that I've come up against 2 full heals and a hybrid (or 2) troopers ... you need all the DPS you can get.

 

I can't wait for 8 man queues .... some of the "other 4" .... just wow.

 

aha! Point taken.

 

Still, you could still break it by a knockback/pull/stun. It's a good tactic though and one I hadn't thought of until now

[MrXen]

What class do you play? How's your gear level? Judging from the extreme ignorance of this statement, I'm going to guess that you are still rocking a lot of Centurion pieces, if that.

 

If you actually believe this BS, I am going to have to say that the issue is with you. Yes, marauders are definitely dangerous, but they aren't the only ones. There are good operatives, assassins, sorcerers -- even a grav missile spammer can be extremely dangerous if they think about their positioning and LoS on me before they start laying into me.

 

 

 

 

I play a DPS assassin, one of the underpowered things in the game. And I'm battlemaster if you want to know. And as such I compare myself and teammates only against other...>battlemasters< more specifically with full champion gear (since that is what I have currently).

 

 

No amount of interrupts stops a healer (realistically, 5 coordinated DPS can naturally), each one has a basic 3 options and a general panic button. All of which erase any dps a single guy can ever do.

 

 

 

And by "poof back to 80 percent" I mean in a matter of a few seconds, not 2 seconds like some guy stipulated out of no where.

 

 

 

 

All of you saying healing needs buffed or whatever nonsense, try playing against a DPS that doesn't out gear you by 2 tiers of pvp gear. One champion merc (i know him personally and his gear) can out heal me and 2 other dps without dropping below 60 percent (don't know the other two DPS gear) but my gear is full champ and my damage on him is a consistent 2000-4000 per maul (which my spec allows me to maul about once every 1.5 seconds) and my other skills that go inbetween deal formidable damage. On top of this I never miss an interrupt (especially against him) but it does not matter. Of the teammates I had on him, at least one was interrupting his other heal and we were trading (surprising in a pug) but he easily...easily just ran around shrugging us off for an entire 70 seconds or so before his team came.

 

 

 

I quote him: "yeah playing healer is easy and no one can do anything to me."

 

 

 

Do speculate more on my skill, gear, or experience as a person who has pvp'ed enough to be battlemaster and can do basic math unlike some of us apparently.

 

 

elementary... 1 guy gets 10 percent bonus, other guy gets 2 different 10 percent bonuses, who benefits more?? Argue this some more, its amusing me.

Edited March 15, 2012 by MrXen

[HooverHog]

Unfortunately I've not had time to write new articles. You could look at torhead.com or search the sithwarrior.com database and look for abilities with the highest coefficients.

 

I'm sure something like the scoundrels shoot first has a ridiculously high coefficient.

 

Shoot First is 2.48

 

Here are some heals and attacks from the Sorc to compare:

 

Static Barrier = 3.27

Dark Infusion (3 second heal) = 3.41

Dark Heal (1.5 second heal) = 1.75

 

Lightning Strike (1.5 second attack) = 1.32

Chain Lightning (3 second aoe) = 2.02

Thundering Blast (2 second attack) = 1.58

 

This is a very limited list, but it shows a trend in abilities (that have short or no cooldowns) to have a significantly higher coefficient on heals than damaging attacks. Unless all of the skills I looked at (more than I listed here) are outliers then I think it's still unfair to say that healers are allowed to scale more with expertise just because their base bonus healing is lower than base bonus damage. This discrepancy is more than made up for in the individual skill coefficients.

[MrXen]

Shoot First is 2.48

 

Here are some heals and attacks from the Sorc to compare:

 

Static Barrier = 3.27

Dark Infusion (3 second heal) = 3.41

Dark Heal (1.5 second heal) = 1.75

 

Lightning Strike (1.5 second attack) = 1.32

Chain Lightning (3 second aoe) = 2.02

Thundering Blast (2 second attack) = 1.58

 

This is a very limited list, but it shows a trend in abilities (that have short or no cooldowns) to have a significantly higher coefficient on heals than damaging attacks. Unless all of the skills I looked at (more than I listed here) are outliers then I think it's still unfair to say that healers are allowed to scale more with expertise just because their base bonus healing is lower than base bonus damage. This discrepancy is more than made up for in the individual skill coefficients.

 

 

 

Someone who actually knows w t f. Nice to see.

[Demarcc]

I play a DPS assassin, one of the underpowered things in the game. And I'm battlemaster if you want to know. And as such I compare myself and teammates only against other...>battlemasters< more specifically with full champion gear (since that is what I have currently).

 

 

No amount of interrupts stops a healer (realistically, 5 coordinated DPS can naturally), each one has a basic 3 options and a general panic button. All of which erase any dps a single guy can ever do.

 

So fail. What are these 3 basic options all healers have? My Smuggler has 1 basic heal I can cast. 1 More I can cast if i have a second resource available. The rest of my heals are HoTs or an instant EMP that again requires upper hand. What are these 3 basic options I have? Also my cast heal heals about 2400'ish no crit in Wzs. Takes 1.7s to cast. If you cant out DPS that as a DPS you bad. Also I'd like to know what my panic button is? Vanish? My 3 min and hope you dont AoE spell? the one that puts a 100% incoming / outgoing heal debuff on me? Maby its my Dodge that allows me to avoid your white attacks for 3s. Are you auto attacking me? you bad. Possibly you mean my defense screen that absorbs ~1400 dmg once every 45s?

 

And by "poof back to 80 percent" I mean in a matter of a few seconds, not 2 seconds like some guy stipulated out of no where.

 

For me to heal myself the 50% your claiming I'd have to cast on avr 3 heals, assuming one crit. That takes me ~6s. During that time you did'ent use an interrupt? or a stun? you did'ent use a Knockback? you bad.

 

 

All of you saying healing needs buffed or whatever nonsense, try playing against a DPS that doesn't out gear you by 2 tiers of pvp gear. One champion merc (i know him personally and his gear) can out heal me and 2 other dps without dropping below 60 percent (don't know the other two DPS gear) but my gear is full champ and my damage on him is a consistent 2000-4000 per maul (which my spec allows me to maul about once every 1.5 seconds) and my other skills that go inbetween deal formidable damage. On top of this I never miss an interrupt (especially against him) but it does not matter. Of the teammates I had on him, at least one was interrupting his other heal and we were trading (surprising in a pug) but he easily...easily just ran around shrugging us off for an entire 70 seconds or so before his team came.

 

 

Mercs have an ability to shield themselves and ignore interrupts for 12 while taking reduced damage. Did you white bar him and allow him to use his shield? you bad. Try learning how other classes work

 

I quote him: "yeah playing healer is easy and no one can do anything to me."

 

Your healer friend is either very dumb or runs in a pre-made with a tank whoi guards him. Guard is NOT a healer issue. If you wanna ***** about guard tank forums are over there ----->

 

Do speculate more on my skill, gear, or experience as a person who has pvp'ed enough to be battlemaster and can do basic math unlike some of us apparently.

 

Oh your a battlemaster? So i should bow down to you? Not really, see I've got some PvP titles under my belt too .. so being battlemaster impresses no one around here

 

 

elementary... 1 guy gets 10 percent bonus, other guy gets 2 different 10 percent bonuses, who benefits more?? Argue this some more, its amusing me.

 

 

Correction. One guy gets 10% outgoing dmg and 10% incoming dmg bonuses. Sure the healers dmg is weak sauce but if we're talking 1V1 hes still gonna try to kill you. The healer gets 10% dmg reduction 10% dmg increase (Laughable but we'll add it) 10% healing increase and 30% healing decrease.

 

Answers in bold.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Demarcc

[Dudious]

Sad that only two people alluded to this before.

 

Healers get +% heals. DPSers get +% damage. These two facts (generally) balance out.

 

EVERYONE gets -% damage.

 

You're going up against a healer solo and you're complaining that the healer is getting to utilize both of these bonuses simultaneously while you aren't? Damn... how unfortunate for you... the nature of the combat you are involved in is so one-sided that the defensive bonus your gear gives you ISN'T EVEN BEING USED.

 

Also, 1 DPS is not supposed to be able to solo 1 healer in any reasonably short amount of time (assuming both classes are using interrupts/cc/snares/etc).

 

Why are people not seeing this? It's balanced around team on team. Healers get +heal, dps get +damage, everyone gets damage mitigation.

 

Also, like Lace has said (and others) several times: The primary/secondary stats provide a much lesser bonus for healing than they do for damage.