PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Drewser]

What about the inspect feature? Are you going to start crusading for it's removal next?

 

I am not crusading for anything. I personally want fully downloadable full group logs for my guild but I also understand why Bioware decided what they did. It is a compromise.

 

I just had to respond to the joke of comparing the importance of combat logs to chat, as far as an MMO goes.

[Ganelon]

So your arguement is that because you have one thing to discriminate against players you want more tools to disriminate? LOL

 

No, my point is that if we start limiting the functionality of one particular tool because it could, potentially, from time to time, be used by a limited subset of the players to harass other players, we might as well go after pretty much all of the tools in the game.

[Stupiddrummer]

100% false. This is why I didn't want to go down this line with you because you simply refuse to see straight on it.

 

I agree combat logs are useful. But if two SWTOR servers had identical rule sets except one had full open combat logs and no chat, the second had private downloadable logs with chat, which do imagine would be more heavily populated?

 

It is a simple fact that all features are not created equal. That is not based solely on an individual's perception.

 

why did you underline that part of the quote and ignore it? My point was, chats and combat logs, besides being tools, have one other thing in common; they facilitate greifers greifing.

 

now do we remove the tool, because the single down-side is that greifers can use it?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[thominoh]

but see, at least, if you get to a situation where someone has to go (albeit an unfortunate and rare situation), you'll at least have the information to determine that your decision was made logically, and not based on feelings or personal grudges towards that player.

 

Really? Seriously? You're kidding right? So if you are doing hard modes, and Black Talon just happens to be the one.. You get to Mr Irondork and the adds spoil the party, because someone doesn't pick up the adds, or healer gets too much aggro.. Group wipes and LOW dps gets the blame? Really? Or you get to the final boss and and instead of RUNNING away from her, you take a few extra swings to BOOST your dps numbers.. Healer then has to take ADDED time to heal you.. Group wipes, and LOW DPS gets the blame because he actually RAN when he's suppose to instead of dpsing.....

 

There is always MORE to a reason why a group fails or succeeds.. and to use a LOG as your excuse is just unfair and (censor myself)..

[dmtvaroha]

I posted about 15 pages ago that I believe combat logs promote elitism, and while I stand by that, I have come to also believe that the upcoming compromise in patch 1.2 is a good one.

 

Live damage metering would be horribly bad, I think, and discrimination based on various factors already exists, so the availability of combat logs *after* the fact can be a very good thing.

 

There will be groups that insist you make your personal logs available, but they were probably going to insist on passing some sort of litmus test anyway. There is a vast majority of players that do not play the way I do -- I think this is true for everyone. The key will be finding people I have fun with and sticking to them.

[Stupiddrummer]

Really? Seriously? You're kidding right? So if you are doing hard modes, and Black Talon just happens to be the one.. You get to Mr Irondork and the adds spoil the party, because someone doesn't pick up the adds, or healer gets too much aggro.. Group wipes and LOW dps gets the blame? Really? Or you get to the final boss and and instead of RUNNING away from her, you take a few extra swings to BOOST your dps numbers.. Healer then has to take ADDED time to heal you.. Group wipes, and LOW DPS gets the blame because he actually RAN when he's suppose to instead of dpsing.....

 

There is always MORE to a reason why a group fails or succeeds.. and to use a LOG as your excuse is just unfair and (censor myself)..

 

i think you're assuming much to heavy a reliance on metrics. Yes, dps is not always the problem or answer. Obviously, if you know what happened in the fight without looking at meters, then dont worry about the meters.

 

My point was that have detailed combat information throws out all bias when making certain decisions.

[Matte_Black]

but see, at least, if you get to a situation where someone has to go (albeit an unfortunate and rare situation), you'll at least have the information to determine that your decision was made logically, and not based on feelings or personal grudges towards that player.

 

I have seen this go down alot more often where numbers were used as a replacement for taking the time for real discusssion of what was wrong, teaching and correcting problems or just general social consideration. I have definitely seen the metrics used by the socially inept as crutch to circumvent having to "get into it" and defend what are often narrowly held perspectives on to play. This does happen.

 

In the grand scheme, I am pretty sure BioWare does not value facilitiating faster completion of it's story-driven challenges by mathing them down to hard metrics over more inclusive positive community building conventions and behavior and working out how to make the group work. Their comments seem to agree with my assessment. I really doubt they would say cutting the soft member out and replacing him should be Plan A.

[DarthKhaos]

seldom is my wonderfulness truly appreciated

 

Despite my incredible wonderaucity, i still have a hard time seeing how adding full, real time combat logs hurts the people that don't want them. I mean, you could just not use them...right?

But the problem they have with the tool is not their use of it but other individuals use and how they throw their views, opinions and make decisions that affect them with it. It's like a personal journal. You don't want any and every stranger looking at it. You may not be ashamed of anything in it but it is still information some unknown person who wish to judge you because of the information in it. You would only share the information in it with people you trust.

 

Someone mentioned chat window previously but there are filters that allow you to not see a specific channel or a person being an idiot. Seeing a player being an idiot in chat is not even a bump in the road when you take the time to ignore them. Someone kicking you for perceived poor performance is a serious derailment. Imagine the action of people misusing say general chat causes you to be logged out of the game and you have a 15min ban from re-entering the game. You'd seriously think about how to manage the chat tool better wouldn't you.

[Snoodmaster]

Really? Seriously? You're kidding right? So if you are doing hard modes, and Black Talon just happens to be the one.. You get to Mr Irondork and the adds spoil the party, because someone doesn't pick up the adds, or healer gets too much aggro.. Group wipes and LOW dps gets the blame? Really? Or you get to the final boss and and instead of RUNNING away from her, you take a few extra swings to BOOST your dps numbers.. Healer then has to take ADDED time to heal you.. Group wipes, and LOW DPS gets the blame because he actually RAN when he's suppose to instead of dpsing.....

 

There is always MORE to a reason why a group fails or succeeds.. and to use a LOG as your excuse is just unfair and (censor myself)..

 

All of that would be reflected in the log. With a public log, you can figure out that the healer died first from damage from the adds. With a personal log, you can only figure it out after the parse IF the healer uploads his log, and that won't happen until everyone has already left the instance and logged off. With a public log, you would see the damage ticks from her AoE on the dps who didn't run out. You'd only kick the low dps if the boss enraged while everyone was still alive. Which again, you can tell by seeing in the log when the boss gained the enrage buff and comparing it to the first time a player died.

 

Without the log, you can't see any of those things. You can guess and you can estimate and try to figure out what went wrong, but without a clear record you don't really know. Maybe the tank thinks that he died to enrage, but he really died when he went LoS of the healer. You can't tell until you look at the log and see that the boss's damage did not increase by a lot, but there is a large gap of no incoming heals.

[Snoodmaster]

In the grand scheme, I am pretty sure BioWare does not value facilitiating faster completion of it's story-driven challenges by mathing them down to hard metrics over more inclusive positive community building conventions and behavior and working out how to make the group work. Their comments seem to agree with my assessment. I really doubt they would say cutting the soft member out and replacing him should be Plan A.

 

This game is based on math. All damage dealing abilities are numbers. The boss's hp is a number. The tank's hp is a number. The healer's heal is a number.

 

Community conventions and behavior are irrelevant in the face of the simple reality that there are hard bounds beneath which you cannot fall. A player with less than 10k hp cannnot live when a boss does a 12k damage unavoidable AoE. A group of 8 people with a 1000 average dps cannot defeat a boss with 1 million dps and a 2 minute enrage timer. A boss who swings every 2 seconds and does 4000 damage a swing cannot be healed through by a single healer who heals for 1500 hp every 2.5 seconds.

 

This is why we have gear, and why our gear has stats, and why those stats are visible. If bioware did not intend for math and hard statistical metrics to play a role in the game, they would just do what FPS game designers do and have every single item be balanced and do the same overall dps and never show how much damage anything does.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Snoodmaster

[thominoh]

All of that would be reflected in the log. With a public log, you can figure out that the healer died first from damage from the adds. With a personal log, you can only figure it out after the parse IF the healer uploads his log, and that won't happen until everyone has already left the instance and logged off. With a public log, you would see the damage ticks from her AoE on the dps who didn't run out. You'd only kick the low dps if the boss enraged while everyone was still alive. Which again, you can tell by seeing in the log when the boss gained the enrage buff and comparing it to the first time a player died.

 

Without the log, you can't see any of those things. You can guess and you can estimate and try to figure out what went wrong, but without a clear record you don't really know. Maybe the tank thinks that he died to enrage, but he really died when he went LoS of the healer. You can't tell until you look at the log and see that the boss's damage did not increase by a lot, but there is a large gap of no incoming heals.

 

Look at this way.. Have you EVER played a Sniper? I have, and let me tell you.. MY Snipers DPS is very shaky depending if I have to use cover or not , and am I on the move.. There will be encounters that DPS will SUCK because of having to be mobile.. Should I get KICKED from the group because the tank keep pulling the mob out of my line of sight? Get the idea now?

[thominoh]

This game is based on math. All damage dealing abilities are numbers. The boss's hp is a number. The tank's hp is a number. The healer's heal is a number.

 

Community conventions and behavior are irrelevant in the face of the simple reality that there are hard bounds beneath which you cannot fall. A player with less than 10k hp cannnot live when a boss does a 12k damage unavoidable AoE. A group of 8 people with a 1000 average dps cannot defeat a boss with 1 million dps and a 2 minute enrage timer. A boss who swings every 2 seconds and does 4000 damage a swing cannot be healed through by a single healer who heals for 1500 hp every 2.5 seconds.

 

This is why we have gear, and why our gear has stats, and why those stats are visible. If bioware did not intend for math and hard statistical metrics to play a role in the game, they would just do what FPS game designers do and have every single item be balanced and do the same overall dps and never show how much damage anything does.

 

This is why current end mechanics SUCK... Everyone wants to work by the numbers, what happen to the sense of mystery? Heck, just last month I was running a dungeon and because of a BAD pull by tank... Tank died, and 1 dps died... before the boss was down 30%..... The remaining 2 players (healer and dps) finished him off using some great LoS and kiting skills...... BOOOYAAAHHH

[Andryah]

Ok, thank you for that opinion. Let me clearly articulate why that is wrong.

 

1. A personal only log affects a guild almost as much as it does a PuG. Just because everyone in the group has the same guild tag does not mean that you can magically remove the delay inherent in coordinating all those people.

 

2. What you are basically saying is that PuG should be forced to take people that they do not want in the group.

 

3. The reason why PuGs don't want to take everyone is a perfectly valid one. Having someone who is not or cannot compete at the standard required means that the whole group will fail.

 

4. Groups are made up of individuals. This applies as much to a PuG as to a guild. The people in the PuG deserve as much consideration as the single person.

 

5. If a person does not allow public logging under my proposal, they can choose to group with other people who do not allow public logging or who don't mind grouping with them. Under the current system, a group who want everyone's data cannot decide not to group with someone who won't allow his logs to be shared until after the raid is already over and it is too late for them to do anything about it.

 

 

It's much simpler then that.

 

PUGS are the cesspool of bad social behaviors in MMOs these days.

 

Guilds can and will organize themselves to take advantage of any and every mechanic available to them for advancing progression. They overcome and take steps to achieve, so personal logging consolidated to their web site for post analysis will pose little problem for good guilds.

 

You are just fabricating reasons. Most of which are not really issues to any guild of any caliber. PUGS deserve no special consideration whatsoever in terms of group logging mechanics as it gets abusued more then used for the benefit of the PUG.

 

PUGs are transitory one-offs. Guild groups are generally organized, persistent, focused, and are able to use what is presented to them and achieve what they want to achieve. Guilds are actually doing fine with out logs in this game at the moment. When harder content comes, they benefit from the logging coming in 1.2

Edited March 19, 2012 by Andryah

[Andryah]

No, my point is that if we start limiting the functionality of one particular tool because it could, potentially, from time to time, be used by a limited subset of the players to harass other players, we might as well go after pretty much all of the tools in the game.

 

Problem is PUGs are almost the norm in MMOs these days. They and the issues they inject are not minimal, they are their own social distortion of MMOs and it is significant. It came with LFG mechanics for servers. More so when/if cross server LFG comes to SWTOR

[Snoodmaster]

This is why current end mechanics SUCK... Everyone wants to work by the numbers, what happen to the sense of mystery? Heck, just last month I was running a dungeon and because of a BAD pull by tank... Tank died, and 1 dps died... before the boss was down 30%..... The remaining 2 players (healer and dps) finished him off using some great LoS and kiting skills...... BOOOYAAAHHH

 

There is no mystery there. All that proves is that the boss's hp was low enough, his enrage timer loose enough (or nonexistent), his damage output per second low enough, and the healer+dps did enough combined dps. Your success was still based on math and on working the system to make the math work in your favor. If I develop a rotation that sneaks in a few extra attacks to boost my dps that's the same as kiting the boss to reduce his swings. Both are attempts to alter the everpresent math to improve the odds of success.

 

Whether you like it or not, that's the reality of how the game works.

[Matte_Black]

This game is based on math. All damage dealing abilities are numbers. The boss's hp is a number. The tank's hp is a number. The healer's heal is a number.

 

I don't begrudge you your pursuit of optimization but, the reason most people play this game is because they cover over all the numbers with pretty pictures and sounds and form those numeric underpinnings into a spectacle and pseudo-reality. Even more so because alot of those pictures and sounds are associated with Star Wars.

 

BioWare's art is keeping those numbers behind the curtain and representing them through interesting means.

 

Yes, the game runs on numbers but, they are not the show. Until, better ways exist to represent some of them, we'll see some on the main screen but, focusing on the inner workings of the game and reacting to those metrics is very far from the intention of this game.

[Drewser]

why did you underline that part of the quote and ignore it? My point was, chats and combat logs, besides being tools, have one other thing in common; they facilitate greifers greifing.

 

now do we remove the tool, because the single down-side is that greifers can use it?

 

Because it is not relevant without also looking at what each brings to the game.

 

You can try to spin it any way you want but the simple fact is chat is far more important to an MMO than combat logs. As much as you would like to ignore that fact, you can't.

 

How many would have bought this game or resubbed with no chat?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Drewser

[NotDonnaReed]

I want a combat log and a DPS meter.

 

Obviously these tools have a downside in that they can and will be misused by some individuals who like to stroke their own ego at someone else's expense. Hint: Don't play with those people!

 

We need a combat log so we can figure out why we died. What hit us? How much did it hit us for? Yes, we can sometimes figure this out through trial and error over multiple wipes, but that's time-consuming and expensive. I'm a healer, and from my perspective it's good to know whether someone died because I didn't heal them through unavoidable AoE or because they were standing in the fire or because they pulled aggro. If you don't want people to have these kinds of discussions, make standing in the fire instantly fatal, and make people's portraits blink red when they pull aggro.

 

We need a DPS meter so we can improve our DPS (or HPS). You can almost always eek out more damage or heals by changing your rotation or tweaking your stats. It's impossible to know how well you're doing if you can't establish a benchmark and test yourself against it. If there weren't any enrage timers, this discussion would be moot. We'd all just stand there and poke the boss til he died. But there are enrage timers, and people need to step up the DPS in order to beat them. Otherwise we scratch our heads and say, "Huh. I guess one of us needs better gear. Oh well, maybe next week!" What a waste of 8-16 people's time. It creates tension in the group when you don't know why you can't do something, and everyone assumes it must've been somebody else. I'd rather know unequivocally who needs to step it up, so I can help that person get better gear or fix their rotation.

[Stupiddrummer]

Because it is not relevant without also looking at what each brings to the game.

 

You can try to spin it any way you want but the simple fact is chat is far more important to an MMO than combat logs. As much as you would like to ignore that fact, you can't.

 

How many would have bought this game or resubbed with no chat?

 

OK. I'm not going to argue chat is useless. That is asinine. Both chat and combat logs bring positive things to the game.

 

However, both of them share the same single, negative side-effect, inherent within the tool, which is that they can be abused by griefers. If you're going to argue that something should be removed because of the negative side-effects, you should pay attention to other tools that facilitate negative behavior.

 

Chat logs bring a lot of positive things to the game. They also bring one negative thing, they make it easier for greifers to greif.

 

Now, take the italisized sentence, and replace the word "Chat Logs" with "Combat metrics." And then tell me how that validates keeping combat metrics out of the game.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Ulmius]

Originally Posted by Tronzax

I've seen some in this thread say, "There are some people out there that will use combat logs and damage meters as a way to discriminate, abuse, or mistreat others . Because it can happen, we shouldn't have it in the game."

 

Well so far in this game on my server I've seen some of that happening already. Except it wasn't from dps. I've seen people send shouts saying you need to have at least full tionese or purple mod equivalent in your gear to join their group. I've had people in my guild get booted from a group because they were inspected and the group saw they had a few green and blue mods. Since some people discriminate with the mod item level, should they remove mods from the game? Should they remove the ability to inspect people? I mean, some people discriminate when they see someone's gear, so surely going off the logic of some people in this thread, they MUST remove the ability to inspect others.

 

The other thing I've seen people get kicked from the group is because they had low hp. A dps literally got kicked out of his group without being inspected because the leader saw he had 12k hp. Having that low amount of hp means he was probably a fresh 50 with low gear. Since someone discriminated and griefed that player, should they remove the ability to see the amount of HP someone has? I mean someone griefed someone because of it, so we have to remove it. Can't let people have an avenue to grief people.

 

Those are actual events that transpired on my server. (Shadowhand)

 

Following the logic of not having meters because some people will grief other players, we MUST remove the ability to inspect other players and we MUST remove that ability to see how many HP a player has because some people will see the gear or hp of another player and discriminate or grief that player. It only makes sense doesn't it?

 

 

I wonder why noone made an arguement against this post.

It's sad that no matter how good and logical a post is, their arguement is always the same. It's as if they simply hardened their hearts and refuse to accept and backing down now would make looks silly.

 

Because as I stated earlier, there is no strong argument against it. Because of that, people will read it, know there's no good argument, then ignore it in hopes that it goes away so they can go back to their straw man argument.

[Seregul]

I don't begrudge you your pursuit of optimization but, the reason most people play this game is because they cover over all the numbers with pretty pictures and sounds and form those numeric underpinnings into a spectacle and pseudo-reality. Even more so because alot of those pictures and sounds are associated with Star Wars.

 

BioWare's art is keeping those numbers behind the curtain and representing them through interesting means.

 

Yes, the game runs on numbers but, they are not the show. Until, better ways exist to represent some of them, we'll see some on the main screen but, focusing on the inner workings of the game and reacting to those metrics is very far from the intention of this game.

 

Your bolded part isn't even remotely true. Hit 'C' the next time you're in game.

 

The animations are very Star Wars-y, though.

[Matte_Black]

Your bolded part isn't even remotely true. Hit 'C' the next time you're in game.

 

First line their about page of their site.

“BioWare's vision is to Create, Deliver, and Evolve the Most Emotionally Engaging Games in the World”[/b]- Dr. Ray Muzyka – Co-founder and Chief Executive Officer, BioWare / Group General Manager, BioWare Group / Senior Vice President, Electronic Arts

- Dr. Greg Zeschuk – Co-founder and President, BioWare / General Manager, BioWare Austin / Vice President, Electronic Arts

 

Not even remotely?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Stupiddrummer]

First line their about page of their site.

 

Not even remotely?

 

hah. not even remotely.

 

 

edit; In fact, i would argue that 'games' implies some sort of number, or quantitative indicator.

 

edit #2 - it's like, you want to play Dungeons & Dragons, but without the dice. Or character sheets. Just names and setting.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[NotDonnaReed]

Should I get KICKED from the group because the tank keep pulling the mob out of my line of sight?

 

Why is everyone so concerned about getting kicked from a group? If the people you're playing with are that kick-happy, stop playing with them. I've never been kicked from a guild group for poor performance, not in this game and not in any other game. If you're playing with nice people, they'll say, "Oh wow, your DPS really went down on that attempt. What happened?" Then you can say, "The tank moved the boss, and it interrupted my rotation." Then the tank makes a mental note not to do that again, or the group advises you to stand somewhere else on the next pull. If you're playing with mean people, that was your first mistake.

 

Without metrics there can be no informed discussion of what to do better next time.

[Drewser]

OK. I'm not going to argue chat is useless. That is asinine. Both chat and combat logs bring positive things to the game.

 

However, both of them share the same single, negative side-effect, inherent within the tool, which is that they can be abused by griefers. If you're going to argue that something should be removed because of the negative side-effects, you should pay attention to other tools that facilitate negative behavior.

 

Chat logs bring a lot of positive things to the game. They also bring one negative thing, they make it easier for greifers to greif.

 

Now, take the italisized sentence, and replace the word "Chat Logs" with "Combat metrics." And then tell me how that validates keeping combat metrics out of the game.

 

Because the positives that chat brings to the game far outweigh the negatives and it simply can't be removed or done "another way" to limit griefing.

 

The same can't be said about combat logs.

 

The comparison to chat is simply ridiculous.