PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[HolePuncher]

Here's my argument for real combat logs:

 

I'm a raid leader for my guild and we are currently struggling with the enrage timer on HM ops. I've done the encounters easily with less geared groups, so I know that's not the problem. There are people in my group that aren't pulling their weight, but there's no way to know who is slacking and by how much.

 

Currently there's nothing we can do other than bang our heads against the wall over and over... wiping to 5-10% enrages each time. Strategical changes help a little, but the bottom line is that our DPS is just not enough.

 

In 1.2 we're going to get 'combat logs', but they are severely limited. As a raid leader, in order to analyze the dps of the group each person needs to individually send me their log or upload it to some parser website. This is a ridiculous waste of time and effort for something that should be so simple. At least allow the op leader to see all the data for the people in the group. I'm fine with using a 3rd party program to do the analysis, but requiring each person to send my their data and then stitching it all together is absurd.

 

If you don't want to be judged based on your dps or healing output metrics, then find a group like-minded people that doesn't check.

Edited March 17, 2012 by HolePuncher

[DaxRendar]

Here's my argument for real combat logs:

...

If you don't want to be judged based on your dps or healing output metrics, then find a group like-minded people that doesn't check.

 

I appreciate your position, but...

 

If you want to judge others based on dps or healing output metrics, then find a group of like-minded people that do check.

Edited March 17, 2012 by DaxRendar

[HolePuncher]

I appreciate your position, but...

 

If you want to judge others based on dps or healing output metrics, then find a group of like-minded people that do check.

 

This is in support of my point. I do have a group full of people that are fine with using meters to help us progress through content. However, the watered down combat log in 1.2 makes it a big chore to get everyone's data together. Just give us the real thing.

[ScarletBlaze]

You also understand that it may also come down to people wanting to take up that space on their computer to save these "all important logs" just for someone to look at.

 

Not everyone will do that as it takes up space that isn't really necessary to do so. Some people don't have the room that this will take up on their computer so can we actually insist of them doing that?

 

I don't think so.

[DaxRendar]

This is in support of my point. I do have a group full of people that are fine with using meters to help us progress through content. However, the watered down combat log in 1.2 makes it a big chore to get everyone's data together. Just give us the real thing.

 

It's a "big chore" to get 8 people repeatedly and frustratingly wiping on content to submit their logs to be parsed (once gathered) in a matter of seconds?

 

Really?

 

Really?!?

 

Please tell me you weren't one of the people posting earlier calling Anti-Meter people "Casuals" or "Lazy" because... just... wow.

[HolePuncher]

You also understand that it may also come down to people wanting to take up that space on their computer to save these "all important logs" just for someone to look at.

 

Not everyone will do that as it takes up space that isn't really necessary to do so. Some people don't have the room that this will take up on their computer so can we actually insist of them doing that?

 

I don't think so.

 

Yea I definitely agree that filling up hard drive space with gigantic text files is stupid, especially when SWTOR already takes up 20+ gigs.

[Stupiddrummer]

It's a "big chore" to get 8 people repeatedly and frustratingly wiping on content to submit their logs to be parsed (once gathered) in a matter of seconds?

 

Really?

 

Really?!?

 

Please tell me you weren't one of the people posting earlier calling Anti-Meter people "Casuals" or "Lazy" because... just... wow.

 

we wont know how much of a chore until it hits the test servers.

 

IMO if it's not in the UI then it's inconvenient. I don't want to alt-tab to access anything.

 

I already have to alt-tab to access i-tunes (WoW had i-tunes support, haha.) /pettyjab

[HolePuncher]

It's a "big chore" to get 8 people repeatedly and frustratingly wiping on content to submit their logs to be parsed (once gathered) in a matter of seconds?

 

So in the middle of a raid everyone has to alt tab and then individually send emails to me or log in to some website and upload or something? And since we would want info between attempts, this process would have to be repeated every 10 mins or so. I'm not saying it can't be done... I just don't see why the process needs to be this difficult.

Edited March 17, 2012 by HolePuncher

[DaxRendar]

Yea I definitely agree that filling up hard drive space with gigantic text files is stupid, especially when SWTOR already takes up 20+ gigs.

 

I'll be really shocked if a Log Parse from a single night's run is more than a few MB tops.

 

The warning is there for people who turn it on and leave it on ALL THE TIME.

 

If you don't have a few MB clear on your computer, you have far worse problems heading your way.

 

So in the middle of a raid everyone has to alt tab and then individually send emails to me or log in to some website and upload or something? And since we would want info between attempts, this process would have to be repeated every 10 mins or so. I'm not saying it can't be done... I just don't see why the process needs to be this difficult.

 

Just wait till you have 3-4 attempts to parse, call a break, and look over the data.

 

You already take 5-15 Minute "Smoke & Bio Breaks" most likely (especially if you've just pounded your head against a boss 3-4 times)

 

Is it "an extra step" or "a bit of a chore" - well yeah sure.

 

But I bet your group loses more time to people futzing with gear or running back to get consumables than it will to "Parse Breaks"

Edited March 17, 2012 by DaxRendar

[HolePuncher]

I'm still waiting for the reason why allowing a op leader to see everyone's data is bad.

[DaxRendar]

I'm still waiting for the reason why allowing a op leader to see everyone's data is bad.

 

If you've followed all my posts in this thread (which I'm sure you haven't) you would know I've already said I'm ok with an "Ops Leader Able To See My Combat Data" Checkbox.

 

I also thought that was an acceptable compromise.

 

But let's face it, this isn't a "huge deal" like you are making it out to be. I mean just get everybody to create a DropBox account and when you ask for Logs they can just drop it in the shared folder. Now you don't even need to wait for emails.

 

This idea that you need to analyze and parse every single wipe, even every single encounter, all in real-time is just ludicrous. I get that there are people who want to do this, who live for this thing, and because of WoW "want it all and want it now" - but it simply isn't needed and the tools are in place for you to get what you want with a small bit of effort.

[Stupiddrummer]

I'll be really shocked if a Log Parse from a single night's run is more than a few MB tops.

 

The warning is there for people who turn it on and leave it on ALL THE TIME.

 

If you don't have a few MB clear on your computer, you have far worse problems heading your way.

 

 

 

Just wait till you have 3-4 attempts to parse, call a break, and look over the data.

 

You already take 5-15 Minute "Smoke & Bio Breaks" most likely (especially if you've just pounded your head against a boss 3-4 times)

 

Is it "an extra step" or "a bit of a chore" - well yeah sure.

 

But I bet your group loses more time to people futzing with gear or running back to get consumables than it will to "Parse Breaks"

 

hate hate hate!

 

edit; at this point, all you're trying to do is generate friction.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[DaxRendar]

hate hate hate!

 

Does somebody need a "Time Out"

[Yescek]

Honestly I never saw what the fuss was all about. Bioware loses because people are gonna be judgmental and elitist whether you give them logs to use as leverage or not. And the other side loses as well, because you're denying them information that you're keeping supposedly secret in order to hold up an empty ideal anyways.

 

I've seen some good points and some bad points, but ultimately I feel like what we're getting is as good as it needs to be, though I'd prefer a chat channel that would show us in real-time what happened, ala SWG style for those of you that know what I'm talking about.

[Easirok]

I'll be really shocked if a Log Parse from a single night's run is more than a few MB tops.

 

The warning is there for people who turn it on and leave it on ALL THE TIME.

 

If you don't have a few MB clear on your computer, you have far worse problems heading your way.

 

 

 

Just wait till you have 3-4 attempts to parse, call a break, and look over the data.

 

You already take 5-15 Minute "Smoke & Bio Breaks" most likely (especially if you've just pounded your head against a boss 3-4 times)

 

Is it "an extra step" or "a bit of a chore" - well yeah sure.

 

But I bet your group loses more time to people futzing with gear or running back to get consumables than it will to "Parse Breaks"

 

Those comments really make it clear that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

 

Combat logs are not just a "few MB". I am the person responsible for logging and uploading my guild's nightly raids in WoW. A single night's log is just over 400 MB of data (we raid for exactly 4 hours in total). Many players with subpar machines simply can't afford the extra loss in framerate that comes with constantly writing out that much data.

 

Progression-oriented guilds do NOT take random "smoke breaks" or "bio breaks" every few pulls. In fact, this is one thing that sets apart progression groups from casual groups. We have a 10-minute break exactly 2 hours into our 4 hour raid schedule. Never early, never late. Everyone knows there will be a break at that time, and the leadership knows there won't be any "ninja afks". It simply isn't tolerated.

 

Likewise, I think you vastly underestimate just how efficient a progression-oriented group is when it comes to wipe recovery. Nobody "futzes with gear" or "runs back for consumables" mid-raid. When a wipe is called, you die ASAP and immediately release and run back for the next attempt. During progression on a new/tough boss encounter, it is normal for us to log roughly 40 to 60 wipes in a single 4-hour stretch.

 

So you are asking this well-oiled and efficient group (who takes PRIDE in their efficiency) to leave the game between pulls (or every few pulls), upload their individual logs to some central location, then have the raid leader pull them together and correlate them in some hypothetical combining tool, and then publish the results somewhere for review.

 

Saying that's "just an extra step" or "a bit of a chore" is a magnificent understatement.

[krinaman]

The real "problem" - the connecting thread through all these things, is the presence of Real-Time In-Game Meters. Before the Meters (and subsequent Meter Wars) DPS would let the Tank pull. Before the Meters, it was accepted that sometimes DPS would pull Threat and the Tank would have to get it back. Before the Meters, people played the game and not... the Meters.

 

Yep.

 

To add to your list:

 

Tanks started wearing DPS gear to join in on the DPS race as well.

 

DPS wouldn't focus fire. Instead they would grab their own target so that a long induction wouldn't be "wasted" if the mob died right before it went off.

 

Players stopped CCing and broke CC because taking time to CC meant less DPS, not AOEing meant less DPS.

 

Standing in fire to finish an induction became common place, moving meant less DPS after all.

 

Simply put DPS became the major focal point of the game. Nothing else really mattered. Sure the meters could track other things beyond DPS but those all played second fiddle to DPS.

 

I've played two different games where meters came about after I started. In both cases I watched the immediate and obvious affect it had on the players in my guild. And no, it didn't make them better. Unless you consider scoring higher on the DPS meter at the expense of every other aspect of the game "better".

[RodneyMmKay]

The only reason you wouldn't want metrics.

 

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

 

"...the effect describes how those who really aren’t very good at something overestimate their skill while those who are experts tend to sell themselves short."

 

I'm sorry but its the truth. The vast majority of people out there would be more happy "believing" they are good rather than knowing.

 

I don't like the epeen crowd any more than I like the happily ignorant.

 

There is plenty of room in the game for the story mode crowd and the people who blew up "nightmare mode" in the opening window of game release.

 

I wan't the full package. Personally the way swtor have done it sounds insanely horrible with no real time analysis. At the moment this game is as clear as mud. And before anyone puts me in a camp of carebear or epeen. On what information are you basing it?

Edited March 17, 2012 by RodneyMmKay

[DaxRendar]

Those comments really make it clear that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

 

Combat logs are not just a "few MB". I am the person responsible for logging and uploading my guild's nightly raids in WoW. A single night's log is just over 400 MB of data (we raid for exactly 4 hours in total). Many players with subpar machines simply can't afford the extra loss in framerate that comes with constantly writing out that much data.

 

Hmm... 400MB file... for a 10-25 man group... so just dividing that by 10 gives us a... 40MB Personal Log!?! Oh snap!

 

Progression-oriented guilds do NOT take random "smoke breaks" or "bio breaks" every few pulls. In fact, this is one thing that sets apart progression groups from casual groups. We have a 10-minute break exactly 2 hours into our 4 hour raid schedule. Never early, never late. Everyone knows there will be a break at that time, and the leadership knows there won't be any "ninja afks". It simply isn't tolerated.

 

Likewise, I think you vastly underestimate just how efficient a progression-oriented group is when it comes to wipe recovery. Nobody "futzes with gear" or "runs back for consumables" mid-raid. When a wipe is called, you die ASAP and immediately release and run back for the next attempt. During progression on a new/tough boss encounter, it is normal for us to log roughly 40 to 60 wipes in a single 4-hour stretch.

 

And how many of those wipes really require detailed analysis and parsing?

 

How many times is it simply "Healer *** killed you?!?" "I stood in fire a second too long trying to get a heal off" and then you proceed.

 

And 60 wipes in 4 hours? 1 wipe every 4 minutes not including any strat or analysis discussion or breaks or anything? Really? Exaggerating much?

 

I mean I guess it is possible if your definition of "Hardcore Progression" raiding is watching a YouTube video of what to do and then responding to DBM messages for 4 hours. I mean at that point your problem isn't figuring out the fights, it's just making your group progress bar move faster than DBM's Enrage Warning Meter.

 

Please remember that the person I was originally responding to about this was talking about a group he considers well/over-geared but not performing. I highly doubt that would happen to your group in any of the content we've seen so far here.

 

So you are asking this well-oiled and efficient group (who takes PRIDE in their efficiency) to leave the game between pulls (or every few pulls), upload their individual logs to some central location, then have the raid leader pull them together and correlate them in some hypothetical combining tool, and then publish the results somewhere for review.

 

Saying that's "just an extra step" or "a bit of a chore" is a magnificent understatement.

 

I still stand by my argument. You don't need to parse and review every pull. You don't even need to do it every 3-4 pulls. Since they are putting a "*** killed me?" line in the chat log most times you won't need to review a parse at all.

 

If you end up using ACT you will even have some "Realtime" information available through the Overlay and the ability for all your group members to post DPS/Encounter Summaries to chat after an attempt.

 

You have to acknowledge that your group's playstyle is also a very tiny minority of the playerbase. Sometimes decisions are made based on what's best for the overall community.

 

If this game's chosen implementation of these features is unbearably painful to you, you do in fact have options.

[krinaman]

A single night's log is just over 400 MB of data (we raid for exactly 4 hours in total).

 

It woud take 125+ copies of war and piece to fill 400mb.

 

 

 

Additionally your computer would have to write roughly 30,000 characters per second to this log file to hit 400mb in 4 hours.

Edited March 17, 2012 by krinaman

[DaxRendar]

I wan't the full package. Personally the way swtor have done it sounds insanely horrible with no real time analysis. At the moment this game is as clear as mud.

 

Get ACT when they nail down support for the SWTOR Logs. You'll have your real time feedback of your performance.

 

Hopefully that will meet your needs.

[Tahana]

Yep.

 

To add to your list:

 

Tanks started wearing DPS gear to join in on the DPS race as well.

 

Oh please.. Tanks didn't start wearing DPS gear after meters and you know it.. They started wearing their DPS gear when they out geared the dungeon because.. *gasp* it didn't matter..

 

If I was in a RDF and it wasn't the start of a new expansion, yeah I wore some of my DPS gear, to make up for the bads and to get through the run faster...

 

I also *gasp* wore my DPS gear on my healer when I was over geared for the dungeon..

[krinaman]

Oh please.. Tanks didn't start wearing DPS gear after meters and you know it.. They started wearing their DPS gear when they out geared the dungeon because.. *gasp* it didn't matter..

 

If I was in a RDF and it wasn't the start of a new expansion, yeah I wore some of my DPS gear, to make up for the bads and to get through the run faster...

 

I also *gasp* wore my DPS gear on my healer when I was over geared for the dungeon..

 

Of course there are tanks/healers wearing DPS gear when they over level the content. I never claimed DPS meters were the only reason. But you are kidding yourself if you don't believe tanks wore DPS gear just to score higher on the meter.

[Atharyia]

But you are kidding yourself if you don't believe tanks wore DPS gear just to score higher on the meter.

 

This is the silliest thing I think I have read in this entire thread. Any member of a guild that actually takes content seriously knows how to use meters properly and knows that tank and healer "dps" means nothing. I have never seen a tank use DPS gear in a serious raid setting just to get higher on the meters.

[Stupiddrummer]

This is the silliest thing I think I have read in this entire thread. Any member of a guild that actually takes content seriously knows how to use meters properly and knows that tank and healer "dps" means nothing. I have never seen a tank use DPS gear in a serious raid setting just to get higher on the meters.

 

in my experience the main tank usually ends up in the top 4 by default, so yes his post was loaded with silly.

[Seregul]

Of course there are tanks/healers wearing DPS gear when they over level the content. I never claimed DPS meters were the only reason. But you are kidding yourself if you don't believe tanks wore DPS gear just to score higher on the meter.

 

It was more class design than it was gear. And typically the reason to wear DPS gear wasn't to peen the meters but instead to reduce resource starvation.