bhouse Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 LOL - I probably know more about them and their effective uses than you do. A Threat Meter is used to "surf" the aggro-tables trying to ride as close as possible to the Tank's Threatgen without going over. It's a DPS Maximization Tool and a Threat Monitoring Tool to ensure DPS doesn't pull and the Tank is generating acceptable levels of Threat... in other words it dumbs down the game by turning Threat into nothing more than a DPS Generation Cap. It makes it so trivially easy to never lose Threat (outside of Aggro Drop Encounter Mechanics) that it's almost pointless to have it in the game. It's a lot more challenging and interesting as a mechanic when it can be more easily lost and regained, when there is uncertainty about its value, just like Poker is "more interesting" when your opponents don't know the cards in your hand and bluffing is possible. Imagine how quickly Poker would become trivial and boring if all cards were dealt Face Up. Now think about what a Threat Meter does Please explain how any of that makes it an I-win meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Please explain how any of that makes it an I-win meter. What part of "maximizing DPS" and "trivializing Threat" do you not understand? Threat Meters make it much easier to maximize a group's performance and minimize wipes or "scrambles" while the Tank regains Threat - i.e. - they make the fight a lot easier... in other words an "I-WIN" Tool. Yeah, I know - DPS still need to spam their rotations, Healers need to heal, sometimes people need to interrupt so it's not a "Guaranteed I-WIN" Tool... but it definitely belongs in the category of "things which make fights stupid-dumb-boring-easy" quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 What part of "maximizing DPS" and "trivializing Threat" do you not understand? Threat Meters make it much easier to maximize a group's performance and minimize wipes or "scrambles" while the Tank regains Threat - i.e. - they make the fight a lot easier... in other words an "I-WIN" Tool. Yeah, I know - DPS still need to spam their rotations, Healers need to heal, sometimes people need to interrupt so it's not a "Guaranteed I-WIN" Tool... but it definitely belongs in the category of "things which make fights stupid-dumb-boring-easy" quickly. just because you know how to theoretically max out your dps doesnt mean it's practical or easy to do in game. that's why its called theorycraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 just because you know how to theoretically max out your dps doesnt mean it's practical or easy to do in game. that's why its called theorycraft Exactly!!! Which nicely leads back to my original post about the value of parsing Threatgen entries from the Logs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhouse Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) What part of "maximizing DPS" and "trivializing Threat" do you not understand? Threat Meters make it much easier to maximize a group's performance and minimize wipes or "scrambles" while the Tank regains Threat - i.e. - they make the fight a lot easier... in other words an "I-WIN" Tool. Yeah, I know - DPS still need to spam their rotations, Healers need to heal, sometimes people need to interrupt so it's not a "Guaranteed I-WIN" Tool... but it definitely belongs in the category of "things which make fights stupid-dumb-boring-easy" quickly. What part of "win" dont you understand? Definition of win : A successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor; a victory. If threat meters make the game "a lot easier" and "trivializes threat" why was it that in World of Warcraft, threat got a 500% buff? Before this buff, why did people constantly pull aggro and make the tanks life much MUCH harder than it should be? Its one of the reasons people didnt want to tank. So I guess by your logic resource bars are "I-Win meters" because they show the amount of resources you have and trivialize the decision to use abilities that cost resources, or to let them regen. Also, health bars are "I-Win meters" because they easily let you see the level of your health, trivializing the decision of when you need to be healed and when you do not. Edited March 17, 2012 by bhouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) If threat meters make the game "a lot easier" and "trivializes threat" why was it that in World of Warcraft, threat got a 500% buff? Before this buff, why did people constantly pull aggro and make the tanks life much MUCH harder than it should be? Its one of the reasons people didnt want to tank. Because frankly the Dev Team on WoW have made a lot of really poor decisions over the years from a game design perspective. The Devs have even admitted that themselves: http://azeroth.metblogs.com/2011/03/29/notes-from-the-blizzard-developer-qa-no-3/ They allowed a huge disparity between Tanks and Heals/DPS when it came to surviving hits from Raid Bosses, which led to people being one-shot whenever they did pull Threat. They have to deal with DPS running Meters all the time and people being so caught up in their e-peen competition that they "jump" mob and boss pulls to try to get in just that little more DPS than the next guy. They have "provided too much information" but "can't put the djinn back in the bottle" so they accepted that their endgame is now largely nothing more than "dps races overcome by gear" with an occasional wonky mechanic thrown in. Let's be honest here. If you were really part of the "Leet" group in WoW, Threat was not pulled "all the time" on Raids. Any real hardcore guild will bench or kick a DPS that pulls more than once or twice. Where it was a problem (and where Tanks hated to Tank) was in Heroics - you know, the places LFG PUG "e-peeners" got so caught up in their meters that they wouldn't even give a Tank a chance to pull, because if they did the Tank with their own burst-AoE abilities needed for Threatgen would wipe the floor with the DPSers on the meters. The real "problem" - the connecting thread through all these things, is the presence of Real-Time In-Game Meters. Before the Meters (and subsequent Meter Wars) DPS would let the Tank pull. Before the Meters, it was accepted that sometimes DPS would pull Threat and the Tank would have to get it back. Before the Meters, people played the game and not... the Meters. Edited March 17, 2012 by DaxRendar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 The real "problem" - the connecting thread through all these things, is the presence of Real-Time In-Game Meters. Before the Meters (and subsequent Meter Wars) DPS would let the Tank pull. Before the Meters, it was accepted that sometimes DPS would pull Threat and the Tank would have to get it back. Before the Meters, people played the game and not... the Meters. yep. definitely the meters. Not the people that are just careless or bad-mannered. Definitely the meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 yep. definitely the meters. Not the people that are just careless or bad-mannered. Definitely the meters. Take away the "scoreboard" and people don't scoreboard watch. Were there poor, careless, or bad-mannered players before Meters became commonplace in WoW? Sure. Were there as many, especially when it comes to jumping pulls and opening up with max-AoE all the time? Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Take away the "scoreboard" and people don't scoreboard watch. Were there poor, careless, or bad-mannered players before Meters became commonplace in WoW? Sure. Were there as many, especially when it comes to jumping pulls and opening up with max-AoE all the time? Not even close. You know what else didn't exist before meters were "common-place?" Cross server BG and cross server LFD. The anonymity gained through cross server BG and LFD was responsible for the increase in bad behavior, not the meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 You know what else didn't exist before meters were "common-place?" Cross server BG and cross server LFD. The anonymity gained through cross server BG and LFD was responsible for the increase in bad behavior, not the meters. Combination of both. If you don't believe that, you are in denial. "Playing the Meters" started becoming a problem long before Cross-Server LFD was introduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Combination of both. If you don't believe that, you are in denial. "Playing the Meters" started becoming a problem long before Cross-Server LFD was introduced. A combination? That's insane. Flying mounts also came out then, do you think that was also is responsible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 And that's fine. Most of us here have no problem with (so-called) "hardcore uber-leets" restricting membership or raid spots based on parses. We just didn't want to have to see it everywhere - in PUGs, in Normal FPs, in Heroics while leveling, at the drop of a hat. -Individuals will be able to parse and analyze their own performance. -Guilds (with a bit of extra effort) will be able to track detailed parses of their runs. But you won't be able to look at other people's data without their assistance. It's a nice compromise. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Please explain how any of that makes it an I-win meter. Well, actually it's more that it dumbs things down to where a trained gerbil can replace you at the keyboard. You play the meter instead of the game. Why not just get yourself a game of smack the monkey and put a smack meter on it and watch the meter, and save yourself an MMO subscription?? Edited March 17, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) The anonymity gained through cross server BG and LFD was responsible for the increase in bad behavior, not the meters. In reality, everything added to a game that enables bad behaviors to be more easily applied is an issue in MMOs, where the players are anonymous and know they are and can get away with bad behaviors. The more tools you give them to be bad, the worse their behavior gets. And NO, the ignore list does not fully remedy this. If it dd, nobody would be talking about the history of bad behaviors in MMOs. I wish this were not the case and that we could put tons of tools and options into an MMO, but with the number of marginal and fullon sociopaths in MMOs these days, it's not practical. It catalyzes griefing. And yeah, there have always been bad behaving people in MMOs. It's just that it has become a lot easier for them to be bad, and get away with it, as MMOs advance with features. Features need to be carefully analyzed for their benefit vs the detriment they inject into server communities, and I am glad to see that Bioware is actually doing this kind of analysis as part of their decision making. Edited March 17, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhouse Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well, actually it's more that it dumbs things down to where a trained gerbil can replace you at the keyboard. You play the meter instead of the game. Why not just get yourself a game of smack the monkey and put a smack meter on it and watch the meter?? WOW! I did not realize just seeing some numbers on the screen made you an amazing player who knows how to gear perfectly and execute the perfect rotation and know exactly when to use your specific utility skills...AMAZING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookBehindThee Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 As I said in earlier post I don't like public combat logs as a healer in most MMO's I have to sit and watch the drama they cause without much effort into the problem being fixed. Across all the MMO's I have played I have never been kicked and I have only ever kicked a verbally abusive or offensive person never on performance. If public logs are going to be then so be it. But I will do as I have always done with my ignore feature. If someone likes to post there how great they are I ignore I never have to group with the MMO Diva again. If a person uses it to kick someone who clearly needs some help and chooses to dump them instead of help I go to. I am replaceable so are you. I would rather do it again and again in a group I am laughing and enjoying until it is done right then put up with a data driven group. Nothing wrong if your a data driven person in game play with who you want. I will play with who I want. Don't expect me to stick around while people are verbally beat up. You can replace me no sweat but if others feel like me you may find yourself having to replace more people then you think. Of course I am not talking the ones who leech in PVP battles or the ones who purposefully don't play other then basic skill spam. I do not need a log to tell me that it is pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) WOW! I did not realize just seeing some numbers on the screen made you an amazing player who knows how to gear perfectly and execute the perfect rotation and know exactly when to use your specific utility skills...AMAZING! You know that is not the point. The point is that you become a meter watcher and you play to the meter instead of playing to the encounter. Not everyone buys into the dumb-down and does this, but a good percentage of the player base does, and when they do you get negative results to what many in this thread profess to want (ie: intelligent, attentive, competent play from group members, particularly those that are strangers to you). Edited March 17, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seregul Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 You know that is not the point. The point is that you become a meter watcher and you play to the meter instead of playing to the encounter. Not everyone buys into the dumb-down and does this, but a good percentage of the player base does, and when they do you get negative results to what many in this thread profess to want (ie: intelligent, attentive, competent play from group members, particularly those that are strangers to you). You have a very depraved outlook on the people who play this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) You have a very depraved outlook on the people who play this game. depraved? depraved [dɪˈpreɪvd] adj morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted Edited March 17, 2012 by Matte_Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 A combination? That's insane. Flying mounts also came out then, do you think that was also is responsible? Flying Mounts didn't contribute to meter-watching no. They did contribute to the destruction of any chance of World PvP and proved very problematic with developing Quests - which is why Blizzard is already on record as saying there will be no flying in Pandaria until Max Level. You are really only helping prove my point about the problems with Meters as far as the galling lack of decent analytical skills amongst the playerbase. If you only came to WoW in WotLK or even late BC after they started down the "Welfare Epic" path - you really don't have a clue as to what REAL Hardcore raiding was all about, or what the game was like before all the crutches that became commonplace were in use. Many of you "pro-Meter" people make the assumption that all us "anti-Meter" people are nothing more than "casual baddies" that want to be "carried" when the truth is some of us were more "hardcore" than you'll ever be and we saw how those tools affected the game and the Community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Flying Mounts didn't contribute to meter-watching no. They did contribute to the destruction of any chance of World PvP and proved very problematic with developing Quests - which is why Blizzard is already on record as saying there will be no flying in Pandaria until Max Level. You are really only helping prove my point about the problems with Meters as far as the galling lack of decent analytical skills amongst the playerbase. If you only came to WoW in WotLK or even late BC after they started down the "Welfare Epic" path - you really don't have a clue as to what REAL Hardcore raiding was all about, or what the game was like before all the crutches that became commonplace were in use. Many of you "pro-Meter" people make the assumption that all us "anti-Meter" people are nothing more than "casual baddies" that want to be "carried" when the truth is some of us were more "hardcore" than you'll ever be and we saw how those tools affected the game and the Community. actually, i my guild raided up to the 2nd boss in AQ40, and i was a field marshal back during the hell pvp grind days. And i used meters then and it was awesome. I used recount as a healer, btw. it made farm mode raids much more fun for me. edit; I also raided for a long time without recount, or any addons, for that matter. I still did my job and no one in my guild said anything. When i did start using add-ons and recount, the only thing that changes was that my over-all enjoyment and depth of play had increased significantly. Edited March 17, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) When i did start using add-ons and recount, the only thing that changes was that my over-all enjoyment and depth of play had increased significantly. And soon you'll be able to run ACT with an Overlay and see your personal performance Hopefully it will be enough to make you happy. If not, WoW is still there waiting for you. Edited March 17, 2012 by DaxRendar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) And soon you'll be able to run ACT with an Overlay and see your personal performance :jawa_grin: Hopefully it will be enough to make you happy. If not, WoW is still there waiting for you. i played Isles of Pandaria at blizzcon, unfortunately. WoW and myself parted ways long ago. I'm a star wars man, personally. I play a gunslinger, so not only am i far away from the action, but i have no further knowledge as to my contribution to the group other than "that thing dies." I'd love to know how i stack up against other dps and make sure im pulling my weight. I'd love to see my overall DPS improve as i continue to gear up at lvl 50. I'd love to know whether Vital shot actually contributes enough to my damage to know if its even worth using. Parsable combat logs are a start, but its a compromise for the wrong reasons. Edited March 17, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I play a gunslinger, so not only am i far away from the action, but i have no further knowledge as to my contribution to the group other than "that thing dies." I'd love to know how i stack up against other dps and make sure im pulling my weight. I'd love to see my overall DPS improve as i continue to gear up at lvl 50. I'd love to know whether Vital shot actually contributes enough to my damage to know if its even worth using or not. You'll get the answers to just about all of those questions with 1.2... just not necessarily in real time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 You'll get the answers to just about all of those questions with 1.2... just not necessarily in real time "BRB guys, excel locked up gotta restart my computer. dont pull til i get back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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