Please don't trivialize PVP gear in 1.2

[Emencie]

You somehow have the notion that people want gear to kill 12k HP opponents, same redundant speculation over and over on these forums.

 

 

yes I want them to have a statistical advantage over someone who hasn't put in as much time and effort as I have.

 

You know you can have a status symbol reward that is distinct, without it having a statistical advantage. But that isn't enough. You want the advantage too.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Emencie

[g-lok-ta]

It really seems like the people complaining about the loss of "gear progression" are really talking about one specific thing: stat advantages. So why not just say: "In this game I want and expect to have stat advantages over other players due to the amount of time I spent playing it?" Hiding behind the word "gear" suggests that somehow its really the gear itself that is meaningful when in fact its about being able to feel more powerful or more "skilled" than other players because of your stat advantages.

 

I would also think that people who are motivated by this "character/gear" progression sense of achievement would be okay with removing the level caps and bolster function from war zones. After all, if you spent the time to level faster than another player why shouldn't you be granted all of the advantages of your earned rank versus other players? Everyone can get to 50 after all, some people are just faster at it, why hand out bolster buffs at all? Its just the gear argument on a larger scale.

[Subatomix]

Come to think of it, we would all likely benefit from some words of wisdom directly from Bioware. I mean, they have been somewhat silent regarding upcoming patch changes. Perhaps after they go live, they can share some of the rationale.

 

"Dear PVPers,

 

We made the changes in patch 1.2 in order to ____ so that ___ and ___. We hope you like them. Etc...

 

We value your input and are continuing to try and make this the best game ever.

 

Sincerely,

 

BW"

 

Effectively removing Centurion gear and moving Champion gear down to "purchasable by credits" and thus Battlemaster gear down to WZ comms is a pretty big change. Big changes need some kind of justification or explanation, no?

 

I'm just sayin. If you make people who have been playing for the last several months feel ignored, that's not good. And by "ignored" I'm not talking about forum posts. I'm talking about game time played and money spent. IOW, support for your franchise.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Subatomix

[Zidstar]

Who cares about the gear. It's all about the ELO rating

[Subatomix]

You know you can have a status symbol reward that is distinct, without it having a statistical advantage. But that isn't enough. You want the advantage too.

 

Advantage can come in many flavors. It doesn't have to just be stat changes. EG., in 1-49 bracket you have the advantage of more abilities. Some other examples off the top of my head:

 

- group tools, markers, etc...

- healing consumables and/or the price paid for them

- decreased "rez" time in the respawn area

- teleport troops

- battle rez in the field

- consumable heals to teammates (eg., for classes that can't heal others)

- vanish to safe zones

 

The list is endless. But even with that, some kind of minor stat bonus due to gear will always be present. Even in the Battlefield series, you have to pay some price of admission first.

[Subatomix]

Who cares about the gear. It's all about the ELO rating

 

But if your ELO rating gets you better gear, it becomes a recursive function. EG., your higher ELO makes it easier for you to keep your higher ELO beyond the scope of your skill.

 

When you win in chess, you get a higher ELO but that's it.

 

You don't get more queens, rooks and bishops.

[Derian]

It really seems like the people complaining about the loss of "gear progression" are really talking about one specific thing: stat advantages. So why not just say: "In this game I want and expect to have stat advantages over other players due to the amount of time I spent playing it?" Hiding behind the word "gear" suggests that somehow its really the gear itself that is meaningful when in fact its about being able to feel more powerful or more "skilled" than other players because of your stat advantages.

 

I would also think that people who are motivated by this "character/gear" progression sense of achievement would be okay with removing the level caps and bolster function from war zones. After all, if you spent the time to level faster than another player why shouldn't you be granted all of the advantages of your earned rank versus other players? Everyone can get to 50 after all, some people are just faster at it, why hand out bolster buffs at all? Its just the gear argument on a larger scale.

 

Yup. That's what they really want. They would wear a dirt mop if it gave a stat advantage. That's what they really mean it has nothing to do with gear.

[g-lok-ta]

All you need to do is look at Rift pvp to get a taste of what a gear based pvp system will get you in the long run.... you get greater and greater performance disparities based on gear and then you get an imbalance and then the developers have to introduce tiers to rebalance the experience... which ironically still pisses off the gear whores who then threaten to quit. Its a broken and tired model, so enough already.

 

TOR started down this path but frankly they screwed the pooch with Ilum and the valor farm. Once that horse was out of the barn and the overpopulated faction also became the most well geared it really undermined the model altogether. So I think its good that it looks like they are changing paths now. They really should have been brave enough to ****-can the hamster wheel gear chase from the get go. Do something new and interesting for a change. The WoW/Rift model has been played out. Mimicking it is just going to get you diminished returns in player interest.

 

The real sad part is that this game really should have been about making the faction system meaningful and basing the pvp around the actual game world. Without actual world pvp achievement and goals that are worth something you're basically left with stuff like epeen measuring contests over gear and titles. In a flagship Star Wars title that's really pathetic. They basically have to do something unique with their PvP model now or just write it off.

[Subatomix]

Yup. That's what they really want. They would wear a dirt mop if it gave a stat advantage. That's what they really mean it has nothing to do with gear.

 

That would be interesting. Make gear with stat bonuses look really, really bad. I like it.

 

Short pants, sombreros, Hawaiian shirts and sandals!

[Emencie]

Advantage can come in many flavors. It doesn't have to just be stat changes. EG., in 1-49 bracket you have the advantage of more abilities. Some other examples off the top of my head:

 

- group tools, markers, etc...

- healing consumables and/or the price paid for them

- decreased "rez" time in the respawn area

- teleport troops

- battle rez in the field

- consumable heals to teammates (eg., for classes that can't heal others)

- vanish to safe zones

 

The list is endless. But even with that, some kind of minor stat bonus due to gear will always be present. Even in the Battlefield series, you have to pay some price of admission first.

 

Why do you need an advantage at all though? Why not compete for pure glory and as Venjinze said

 

a status symbol

rewards based off of skill AND time invested.

face opponents of a similar mindset.

I want the rewards to be distinct

 

All these things are not only possible but in fact would be more effective if they didn't come with a stat bonus. If your gear / title was gotten 100% off your own merit as a player instead of stomping on players that haven't put in the time you have then it means that much more.

 

No one is against PVP rewards for the best PvPers and those that put in massive amounts of hours.

 

what they are against is rewarding the players with the most skill. Or the most time. With advantages.

 

Valor 70 gear, then 80, then 90 and finally 100! We have our valor 100 gear and what happens? We will stomp the everliving crap out of any entry 50 that comes against us. It will not even be a fight. It will be like killing a baby, with our bazooka!

 

The solution? Valor brackets? Well if everyone we fight has the same level of gear as us then there is no advantage. That's why its so easy to jump to the conclusion that those that want advantage rewards only want them so they can easily defeat those who don't have them.

[IndisSeadreamer]

Once you give the PVP epics to everyone for free, then everyone has the same gear - and there's no real point in even having the gear. Just delete your character sheet - you don't need it.

 

Now you've lost a lot of what many people that MMO's enjoy.

 

For me, a great part of enjoyment (and a SKILL) is figuring out what the best gear is for the best situation. In Vanilla WOW, I generated many spreasheets to get to this answer. I enjoy having a gear advantage because I've chosen the best combination of gear.

 

When WOW seperated PVP gear from PVE, by adding the Resillience stat - they took away most of the customization. Just go get your PVP gear from the vendor. Same for SWTOR - go to the vendor. Boring.

 

If the game is going to include getting gear as a part of the game then there should be some point behind it.

Edited March 12, 2012 by IndisSeadreamer

[Spymaster]

PvP should be about War. Winning the war for your faction. Taking and holding objectives, killing enemy players, and completing PvP missions. Not grinding for personal rewards.

 

PvP progression should be based around faction vs faction rewards. Opening important strategic areas and advantages and holding them for your faction, unlocking valuable resources, which in turn allows your faction crafters to create better gear, which anyone in your faction can buy and use to help you in the future.

 

Instead of grinding for stat advantages, you should want other players of your faction to acquire the best gear as well, so when you face the enemy you're better prepared as a faction.

 

Bioware dropped the ball by starting the game with this stupid gear progression mentality in the first place. Now people are stuck in the box, thinking it's the only reason to play.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Spymaster

[Keldaur]

Advantage can come in many flavors. It doesn't have to just be stat changes. EG., in 1-49 bracket you have the advantage of more abilitiesWho cares about 1-49 bracket, ofc it isn't balanced, and it isn't rated, which is what a pvp'er should be looking forward.. Some other examples off the top of my head:

 

- group tools, markers, etc... Everybody can do it

- healing consumables and/or the price paid for them Everybody can get them

- decreased "rez" time in the respawn area Huh?

- teleport troops Huh?

- battle rez in the field That's class dependant, setups, not an advantadge because both teams can have the classes required

- consumable heals to teammates (eg., for classes that can't heal others) You already said this one

- vanish to safe zones If you mean combat stealths, see "battle rezz" answer, and it actually has counters (aoe's, stealth scan)

 

The list is endless. But even with that, some kind of minor stat bonus due to gear will always be present. Even in the Battlefield series, you have to pay some price of admission first. Some price shouldn't be months (i know, right now isn't the case, but we are not talking about only the present time)

 

 

123char

Edited March 12, 2012 by Keldaur

[Subatomix]

Why do you need an advantage at all though? Why not compete for pure glory and as Venjinze said

 

Because in an MMO gear is just part of the game. I mean, why even have levels? We could all start at level 0 and be done with it.

 

There has to be something beyond the ranking on a ladder board.

 

I agree that providing statistical bonuses is flawed and leads to a runaway train. But they (BIOWARE) are going to have to walk this razor's edge.

 

If they want the game to survive they need to work hard at balancing work and reward. I actually think they should have a "pro pvp" type forum to get real feedback from people, not these boards which tend to massive QQ storms.

 

Together I bet we could make something truly fantastic.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Subatomix

[Keldaur]

Once you give the PVP epics to everyone for free, then everyone has the same gear - and there's no real point in even having the gear. Just delete your character sheet - you don't need it.

 

Now you've lost a lot of what many people that MMO's enjoy.

 

For me, a great part of enjoyment (and a SKILL) is figuring out what the best gear is for the best situation. In Vanilla WOW, I generated many spreasheets to get to this answer. I enjoy having a gear advantage because I've chosen the best combination of gear.

 

When WOW seperated PVP gear from PVE, by adding the Resillience stat - they took away most of the customization. Just go get your PVP gear from the vendor. Same for SWTOR - go to the vendor. Boring.

 

If the game is going to include getting gear as a part of the game then there should be some point behind it.

 

There's still configuration on how mods/enhacement. So your knowledge and effort getting best mods/enhacements for your gear isn't wasted. Also vanilla wow didn't have any real competition with ELO rating to find you good matchups.

 

Edit - And by the way you are wrong, the point, is getting better rating on the ELO with your group/guildies, not gear management which a spreadsheet can do.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Keldaur

[glenbruton]

First of all let me say, NO ONE but Bio ware knows, at this point exactly the cost/amount of effort required to get War Hero gear in 1.2

 

That said, the perceived notion is that Bio ware is going to trivialize, and 'give away' (welfare epics more or less) War Hero gear to anyone that participates in ranked WZ's. Please don't let this be the case. Many of us who love PVP ad out forth the time and effort should not be penalized, (IE allowing ANYONE access to war Hero Gear) we should be rewarded for our efforts. Again we don't know the exact details on how much and how hard the gear will be to acquire to through Rated WZ's, but it should go with out saying that those who put forth the time and effort to PVP and play to the best they can get REWARDED with access to War Hero gear.

 

I know this is a touchy subject, PVPer's want the Risk/Reward, and Gain access to pvp gear through time and effort while PVEer's just want the gear handed to them so they don't get stomped in PVP. If PVE players will have to work for gear once Nightmare mode is fixed, i feel that PVP players should also have to work just as hard to get BIS gear for PVP. It will be a huge mistake, and may even cause the loss of a substantial player base if PVP gear is dumbed down to the level that even the slightest or least effort in rated WZ results in access to the BIS pvp gear.

 

SIDE NOTE I know player play time is a factor in this decision, as most often those that play the most get the most, I am sort of OK with making lower lvl PVP gear more accessible to casual player, BUT please please require the BIS PVP gear substantial dedication and investment to gain access to this gear just like PVE nightmare mode will require.

 

translation: I have a lot more spare time than most and I would like to be able to rofflstomp them for longer.

[Delease]

Nope, War Hero gear will not have a valor requirement. It will require warzone comms from ranked PVP play.

 

However, nothing has been mentioned about how long it will actually take to get the gear (frequency of drops, comms cost, etc.). It's honestly too early to tell what things will be like, so a lot of the QQing is for nothing.

 

So basically you are going to just see Consulars/Troopers & Inquistors/Bounty Hunters with war hero gear then?

 

Cause the way PVP is right now, thats how most teams will be set up to play

[Emencie]

Because in an MMO gear is just part of the game. I mean, why even have levels? We could all start at level 0 and be done with it.

 

There has to be something beyond the ranking on a ladder board.

 

I agree that providing statistical bonuses is flawed and leads to a runaway train. But they (BIOWARE) are going to have to walk this razor's edge.

 

If they want the game to survive they need to work hard at balancing work and reward. I actually think they should have a "pro pvp" type forum to get real feedback from people, not these boards which tend to massive QQ storms.

 

Together I bet we could make something truly fantastic.

 

But Gear != Advantage.

 

I'm not wondering why they include gear. Heck I love getting gear. and I would love it if every 6 months they come out with a limited time (till the next season) set of PVP gear with a unique look or color or perhaps a special weapon or new animations for classes. That you can only get by putting in work.

 

And that's what PVP gear should be. 100% status. So when you see that Sorc shooting red lightning (season 5 reward), with his lava crystal lightsaber (season 3 reward), in his emperor's hand season 2 set. You know that guys is a complete BAMF. Not because his gear lets him own noobs. But because his skills let him own vets.

[Subatomix]

translation: I have a lot more spare time than most and I would like to be able to rofflstomp them for longer.

 

They need to allow for a place to roflstomp people. I mean, c'mon. It's what puts the rofl in roflstomp.

[Agooz]

Those who are screaming "Progression PvP gear should be for the elite", those who can spend countless hours PvPing, strapping themselves into a voice activated rig to use their abilities, love the idea of premade vs newbie 50s, they are have one thing in common....they are all attention whores....lol the rest of us just enjoy PvP in a more casual competitive nature.

 

My complaint with pvp if I have any, is allowing Premades in the first place. It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with skill. What skill do you need if you have a pocket healer or pocket anything, all coordinating in unison over vent. I think Those who queue premades, should have their valor/commendations greatly reduced, or ONLY allow them to compete against other premades.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Agooz

[Agooz]

But Gear != Advantage.

 

 

Of course it is, everything else being equal. That is why I am absolutely against it. In otherwords the first people that will have their hands on this gear are not necessarily skilled people, but more often than not, the few premades. And once they do, they continue to dominate even more, and make the experience of the rest of the playerbase (skilled or not) bad.

[Emencie]

Of course it is, everything else being equal. That is why I am absolutely against it. In otherwords the first people that will have their hands on this gear are not necessarily skilled people, but more often than not, the few premades. And once they do, they continue to dominate even more, and make the experience of the rest of the playerbase (skilled or not) bad.

 

You quoted me out of context

 

I was saying in response, that getting gear or having gear progressions doesn't mean you have to also have statistical progression of stats (in PvP)

 

That you can have plenty of gear progression that has nothing to do with getting better stats. One of my favorite MMO PVP systems does this. Guild wars. People are always trying to get their 15K sets. Its a status symbol. and gives nothing else.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Emencie

[richardya]

People are always trying to get their 15K sets. Its a status symbol. and gives nothing else.

 

How did that game do?

 

Progression is what people keep playing, WoW learned that is mega successful whether or not its for you. MMO's are about progression. No matter how many people say "translation - you want to faceroll newbies" It's a progressing your character game. Thats why we like leveling and getting new abilities, it's fun.

 

I know , I know, translation, I wanna face roll newbs.

 

People have said a million times the stat advantage could be minor.

[IndisSeadreamer]

There's still configuration on how mods/enhacement. So your knowledge and effort getting best mods/enhacements for your gear isn't wasted. Also vanilla wow didn't have any real competition with ELO rating to find you good matchups.

 

Edit - And by the way you are wrong, the point, is getting better rating on the ELO with your group/guildies, not gear management which a spreadsheet can do.

 

I do look at almost all Sage's gear to see what they are doing. And yep mods/enhancements make a notable difference! Wish it was more.

 

I agree working with your team to get a good ELO rating (which can be great fun) is good stuff- but then the gear is still completly unnecessary. So is leveling to 50 btw.

 

Now if it actually required skill instead of time to get the gear - you'd be set. Vis a vis - the EPIC Hunter quest in WOW.

[Onager]

If it just turns into skill vs skill and isn't just another gear grind, I may actually start PVPing in this game.

 

I'm pretty sure there will be rankings and a ladder system, too. You want your epeen? Get it there, actually competing. All pvp gear does is make you better at pvping against people who don't have the pvp gear. That's not real PVP.