Was Mace doomed from the start?

[lorddarklon]

Did Mace even have a chance of killing Sidious? I think Anakin was the only one that could as long as Sidious was the only sith as he is the one that is to bring balance back to the force. But then again I also think Sidious threw the fight with Mace in order to turn Anakin to the darkside as a dead Mace along with 3 other jedi would not have looked like he was in any danger.

[Girdeux]

Lucas said Mace beat Palpatine in the lightsaber duel while Palpatine was trying to kill him with lightning but couldnt. So he had to feign weakness to Anakin to turn him. Plus also saying only Windu, Yoda or Anakin could compete with the Emperor. Edited March 11, 2012 by Girdeux

[Wolfninjajedi]

Mace was I would assume, Palpatine lost the lightsaber duel sure...but the rest of the scenario he was waiting on Anakin. If Anakin hadn't shown up, Palpatine would have just used his superior knowledge of the force and used it to kill Windu. In fact, when Mace went to go for the final blow he completely left himself open to any force attack. Edited March 11, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[YoshiRaphElan]

Mace was I would assume, Palpatine lost the lightsaber duel sure...but the rest of the scenario he was waiting on Anakin. If Anakin hadn't shown up, Palpatine would have just used his superior knowledge of the force and used it to kill Windu. In fact, when Mace went to go for the final blow he completely left himself open to any force attack.

 

If he'd just stabbed instead of only pointing his lightsaber all menacingly...Palpatine's corpse would be rotting now instead of Mace's.

[Wolfninjajedi]

If he'd just stabbed instead of only pointing his lightsaber all menacingly...Palpatine's corpse would be rotting now instead of Mace's.

 

Not really, Palpatine had a number of chances to kill Windu using the force other then lighting anyway but even then with lighting, Mace's saber was bending and he was losing his grip.

 

In fact Palpatine was beyond using a lightsaber, he only used it to mock the jedi.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Newyankalt]

Mace would have won if anakin never showed up If i wear mace force push sidious out the window.

[Zeratho]

Lucas said Mace beat Palpatine in the lightsaber duel while Palpatine was trying to kill him with lightning but couldnt.

 

Where did Lucas said that?

[Morticoccus]

Well, according to the EU, if Mace had whacked him right there Palpatine would have blown up, probably killing everyone in the room, and then he'd just respawned in a fresh clone body.

[TKMaster]

Where did Lucas said that?

 

Episode 3 commentary.

[Aaryan-Blitz]

I disagree with the argument in general. Neither would have won due to the dark-side-explosion resulting in the Emperor's death. In a pure duel where no outside Force powers were used, it would be a duel to the end of one of their natural lives due to old age giving the victory to Mace. Why? Mace was very fluent in form VII of lightsaber combat which is borderline Sith technique. Being the Grand-master he was, and the most skilled of all Jedi in lightsaber combat (Yoda holding that title for the Force power), and Sidious being the ONLY sith and therefore the strongest and most powerful, it would be based on location. Like Obi-Wan demonstrates, high ground is important, but is by-passable because if Mace had high ground, he could wait forever because the Jedi's peaceful nature would allow him to not want to continue the fight. If you were to extend the fight to Sidious' Force lightning, and Mace's Emerald lightning (which he was fluent with), the edge would go to Sidious due to the prolonged period that he could keep it up. However, over a long duration, Mace would come back because of the energy issue. Sidious is getting energy from the Dark Side, while Mace is drawing the same energy from the Light Side, and tapping into his passion side with his form VII. When Anakin is inserted into the equation, it is a flip of a coin. Had Mace at the time not been slightly consumed by his passion, he could have foreseen Anakin's betrayal, and counteracted this by pulling his hand in slightly and blocking the blow while kicking the Emperor off the building. Also, if he would have had the Emperor stand trial before the Jedi Council, (obviously his emergency powers revoked for the trial) then sentenced to imprisonment on a remote planet or a cell on Coruscant surrounded by Ysalmari to stop his Force, Anakin would have actually helped Mace as long as he had access to Sidious as a friend. But back to the original point, Mace was not doomed from the start, he simply went about it wrong. He was slightly consumed by his passion and it blinded him. He was already angered by the grant to Palpatein the emergency powers, and was frustrated with Anakin. Had he gone in with a clear mind, or knocked out Sidious with the Force before the battle started, he could have easily one. If anyone was doomed from the start, it was the three Jedi with Mace.

[TKMaster]

I disagree with the argument in general. Neither would have won due to the dark-side-explosion resulting in the Emperor's death. In a pure duel where no outside Force powers were used, it would be a duel to the end of one of their natural lives due to old age giving the victory to Mace. Why? Mace was very fluent in form VII of lightsaber combat which is borderline Sith technique. Being the Grand-master he was, and the most skilled of all Jedi in lightsaber combat (Yoda holding that title for the Force power), and Sidious being the ONLY sith and therefore the strongest and most powerful, it would be based on location. Like Obi-Wan demonstrates, high ground is important, but is by-passable because if Mace had high ground, he could wait forever because the Jedi's peaceful nature would allow him to not want to continue the fight. If you were to extend the fight to Sidious' Force lightning, and Mace's Emerald lightning (which he was fluent with), the edge would go to Sidious due to the prolonged period that he could keep it up. However, over a long duration, Mace would come back because of the energy issue. Sidious is getting energy from the Dark Side, while Mace is drawing the same energy from the Light Side, and tapping into his passion side with his form VII. When Anakin is inserted into the equation, it is a flip of a coin. Had Mace at the time not been slightly consumed by his passion, he could have foreseen Anakin's betrayal, and counteracted this by pulling his hand in slightly and blocking the blow while kicking the Emperor off the building. Also, if he would have had the Emperor stand trial before the Jedi Council, (obviously his emergency powers revoked for the trial) then sentenced to imprisonment on a remote planet or a cell on Coruscant surrounded by Ysalmari to stop his Force, Anakin would have actually helped Mace as long as he had access to Sidious as a friend. But back to the original point, Mace was not doomed from the start, he simply went about it wrong. He was slightly consumed by his passion and it blinded him. He was already angered by the grant to Palpatein the emergency powers, and was frustrated with Anakin. Had he gone in with a clear mind, or knocked out Sidious with the Force before the battle started, he could have easily one. If anyone was doomed from the start, it was the three Jedi with Mace.

 

Much to learn about paragraphs and punctuation, you still have.

Edited March 11, 2012 by TKMaster

[OGsam]

Kit Fisto was the Buzz Aldren of that scene, don't hate.

[Master-Nala]

Mace won, if Anakin had stayed home like he was told:

 

• Mace would have killed Palpatine;
  
• Anakin would have been granted the title of Master for resisting Palpatine's attempts to turn him;
  
• Luke and Leia would have been raised as little Jedi;
  
• Anakin would have turned anyway after finding Obi-Wan banging Padme;
  
• Qui-gon Kenobi would have been born secretly and Padme would have died of a broken heart at seeing her husband and lover fighting;
  
• Anakin would get some major loot in the divorce settlement;
  
• Luke and Leia would have had to set dad right with a lightsaber in his butt;
  
• Qui-gon Kenobi and Qui-gon Jinn would lecture Obi-Wan about attachment and the all important rule of 'bros before hos';
  
• Leia would have taken a leave of absence to serve a term as Naboo's Queen and later Supreme Chancellor of the Republic;
  
• Luke would be named Grand Master of the Order after Yoda retires;
  
• Admiral Han Solo of the Republic Navy would sweep the Jedi Master Leia Skywalker off her feet.
  

 

 

Wait...where was I going with this.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Master-Nala

[Kelfred]

All of the metaphsyical hypothesizing aside, you have to realize that Mace was a black guy and the black guy always dies in the movie, unless he's the 'magical' black man, then he might survive. While Mace was pretty cool and used the force, he doesnt really qualify as the 'magical black man', who mysteriously appears out of nowhere, imparts wisdom and/or assistance to the white dude, then vanishes never to be seen again.

 

Correlaries could be drawn that Mace vanished out the window and was never seen again, but that offends my delicate sensibilities.

[Zeratho]

Episode 3 commentary.

 

Weird, I have watched both commentaries on blu-ray version for episode 3, but I don't recall Lucas say anything like that.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Zeratho

[Berika]

Mace won, if Anakin had stayed home like he was told:

 

• Mace would have killed Palpatine;
  
• Anakin would have been granted the title of Master for resisting Palpatine's attempts to turn him;
  
• Luke and Leia would have been raised as little Jedi;
  
• Anakin would have turned anyway after finding Obi-Wan banging Padme;
  
• Qui-gon Kenobi would have been born secretly and Padme would have died of a broken heart at seeing her husband and lover fighting;
  
• Anakin would get some major loot in the divorce settlement;
  
• Luke and Leia would have had to set dad right with a lightsaber in his butt;
  
• Qui-gon Kenobi and Qui-gon Jinn would lecture Obi-Wan about attachment and the all important rule of 'bros before hos';
  
• Leia would have taken a leave of absence to serve a term as Naboo's Queen and later Supreme Chancellor of the Republic;
  
• Luke would be named Grand Master of the Order after Yoda retires;
  
• Admiral Han Solo of the Republic Navy would sweep the Jedi Master Leia Skywalker off her feet.
  

 

 

Wait...where was I going with this.

 

^^ Pure LoL. Kudos for creativity.

 

 

 

The Jedi messed up by believing an interpretation of the prophesy instead of the literal wording of "Bring balance to the force". Yes, Mace (and everyone else) were doomed for a long time.

 

Before Anakin, there were thousands of Jedi and only 1 Sith with his apprentice. (The reason for there being so few Sith was explained in KoToR) Because of his actions all that was eventually left after the purge and great hunt;

 

Sidious and Vader vs Yoda and Obi-Wan.

 

Similar to the flood involving Noah, these actions purged the increasingly decedent/arrogant Jedi who were beginning to stray as Obi-Wan QQ'd to Yoda and Mace in episode III. (Luke and Leia don't count. They were merely potential force sensitive infants/children as were others scattered around the galaxy)

 

Of course Yoda and Obi-Wan threw balance out the window again by orchestrating Luke's rise to "power" and eventual rebuilding of the Jedi temple where more were trained which began the cycle anew. Although, they did appear to have good intentions by doing so.

[Fyurii]

Berika, Balance in The Force has nothing to do with numbers of Jedi and Sith.

 

The Sith were responsible for the imbalance, and they had to be destroyed to return balance to the Force.

[BrandonSM]

Mace beat him in a duel, yeah. Mace is arguaby the 2nd best duelist of all time.

 

 

But when Sid began spawning his lightning, Mace was overwhelmed. I mean his lightsaber was being bent and then Sid did the whole fake fiasco with Anakin as the final turn to the Dark-Side.

[BrandonSM]

Berika, Balance in The Force has nothing to do with numbers of Jedi and Sith.

 

The Sith were responsible for the imbalance, and they had to be destroyed to return balance to the Force.

 

This.

 

 

I'm not sure how many times its been stated before on these forums. Balance is the light-side, Dark-Side bring imbalance/cancer.

[BrandonSM]

Episode 3 commentary.

 

No he didn't.

 

 

Lucas said, "This is the part where Mace wins the duel."

 

And then the directors or the other 2 dudos were talking about trying to make Mace look like he was struggling against the lightning.

Edited March 11, 2012 by BrandonSM

[crazysam]

I disagree with the argument in general. Neither would have won due to the dark-side-explosion resulting in the Emperor's death. In a pure duel where no outside Force powers were used, it would be a duel to the end of one of their natural lives due to old age giving the victory to Mace. Why? Mace was very fluent in form VII of lightsaber combat which is borderline Sith technique. Being the Grand-master he was, and the most skilled of all Jedi in lightsaber combat (Yoda holding that title for the Force power), and Sidious being the ONLY sith and therefore the strongest and most powerful, it would be based on location. Like Obi-Wan demonstrates, high ground is important, but is by-passable because if Mace had high ground, he could wait forever because the Jedi's peaceful nature would allow him to not want to continue the fight. If you were to extend the fight to Sidious' Force lightning, and Mace's Emerald lightning (which he was fluent with), the edge would go to Sidious due to the prolonged period that he could keep it up. However, over a long duration, Mace would come back because of the energy issue. Sidious is getting energy from the Dark Side, while Mace is drawing the same energy from the Light Side, and tapping into his passion side with his form VII. When Anakin is inserted into the equation, it is a flip of a coin. Had Mace at the time not been slightly consumed by his passion, he could have foreseen Anakin's betrayal, and counteracted this by pulling his hand in slightly and blocking the blow while kicking the Emperor off the building. Also, if he would have had the Emperor stand trial before the Jedi Council, (obviously his emergency powers revoked for the trial) then sentenced to imprisonment on a remote planet or a cell on Coruscant surrounded by Ysalmari to stop his Force, Anakin would have actually helped Mace as long as he had access to Sidious as a friend. But back to the original point, Mace was not doomed from the start, he simply went about it wrong. He was slightly consumed by his passion and it blinded him. He was already angered by the grant to Palpatein the emergency powers, and was frustrated with Anakin. Had he gone in with a clear mind, or knocked out Sidious with the Force before the battle started, he could have easily one. If anyone was doomed from the start, it was the three Jedi with Mace.

 

Good arguments, but they are opinions, not facts.

[Kalthun]

If you were to extend the fight to Sidious' Force lightning, and Mace's Emerald lightning (which he was fluent with), .

 

i have read most books in the EU and played most games and know the movies all by heart and i have never heard of "emerald lightning". i think you have made this up. there are instances of Jedi using force lighting and it was as purple as when Palpatine did it. the Force technique of Force lighting, like all force abilities, is a neutral power, it is just the application of the it that makes it used by dark siders; because if you follow the Jedi code and act in accordance with the Light side then you would not use an ability like that to cause pain and death, it just doesn't make sense. so unless this "emerald lightning" causes life and happiness it doesn't make sense. just my 2 cents.

[undeadsithdread]

I disagree with the argument in general. Neither would have won due to the dark-side-explosion resulting in the Emperor's death. In a pure duel where no outside Force powers were used, it would be a duel to the end of one of their natural lives due to old age giving the victory to Mace. Why? Mace was very fluent in form VII of lightsaber combat which is borderline Sith technique. Being the Grand-master he was, and the most skilled of all Jedi in lightsaber combat (Yoda holding that title for the Force power), and Sidious being the ONLY sith and therefore the strongest and most powerful, it would be based on location. Like Obi-Wan demonstrates, high ground is important, but is by-passable because if Mace had high ground, he could wait forever because the Jedi's peaceful nature would allow him to not want to continue the fight. If you were to extend the fight to Sidious' Force lightning, and Mace's Emerald lightning (which he was fluent with), the edge would go to Sidious due to the prolonged period that he could keep it up. However, over a long duration, Mace would come back because of the energy issue. Sidious is getting energy from the Dark Side, while Mace is drawing the same energy from the Light Side, and tapping into his passion side with his form VII. When Anakin is inserted into the equation, it is a flip of a coin. Had Mace at the time not been slightly consumed by his passion, he could have foreseen Anakin's betrayal, and counteracted this by pulling his hand in slightly and blocking the blow while kicking the Emperor off the building. Also, if he would have had the Emperor stand trial before the Jedi Council, (obviously his emergency powers revoked for the trial) then sentenced to imprisonment on a remote planet or a cell on Coruscant surrounded by Ysalmari to stop his Force, Anakin would have actually helped Mace as long as he had access to Sidious as a friend. But back to the original point, Mace was not doomed from the start, he simply went about it wrong. He was slightly consumed by his passion and it blinded him. He was already angered by the grant to Palpatein the emergency powers, and was frustrated with Anakin. Had he gone in with a clear mind, or knocked out Sidious with the Force before the battle started, he could have easily one. If anyone was doomed from the start, it was the three Jedi with Mace.

 

super shadow is that you?

[Aaryan-Blitz]

i have read most books in the EU and played most games and know the movies all by heart and i have never heard of "emerald lightning". i think you have made this up. there are instances of Jedi using force lighting and it was as purple as when Palpatine did it. the Force technique of Force lighting, like all force abilities, is a neutral power, it is just the application of the it that makes it used by dark siders; because if you follow the Jedi code and act in accordance with the Light side then you would not use an ability like that to cause pain and death, it just doesn't make sense. so unless this "emerald lightning" causes life and happiness it doesn't make sense. just my 2 cents.

 

 

 

Emerald Lightning is not actually "Emerald" but just a name. It is the Jedi version of Force Lightning where a simple orb, if you will, of lightning is expelled from the user. It is found in MANY books which at the current moment, names escape me. Because of his form VII technique, his passion was already flowing and therefore would have been easy. The Jedi were protectors of Peace, and peace is achieved sometimes through battle. If your logic were true, Force Push would not exist because it has the ability to hurt. Emerald Lightning is VERY weak and would not cause "pain and death" but only a slight stun giving Mace enough time to close the gap and finish the battle.

[Aaryan-Blitz]

super shadow is that you?

 

No. I am not him.