1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting

[Delavager]

Everyone already has equal access to gear, it's just casual PVEers and raiders don't want to earn it like the people before them did. Funny the complainers didn't mind rolling level 10's in the lower bracket when they were in their 40's.

 

This isn't an FPS, MMO's by nature have gear progression. A hard core raider in full Rakata has just as much advantage over a fresh 50 as a player in the PVP sets does. I don't see anyone calling for Rakata nerfs. Where's my welfare raid gear?

 

There is still gear progression. Where did you come up with the idea that there isn't.

[Humboolt]

Real PVP'er here.

 

I would much rather fight people in equal gear, organized or unorganized, then it comes down to skill vs skill (and yes sometimes class vs class) in a fight.

 

The ones I win are more gratifying that way.

 

The ones I lose teach me to be a better pvper.

 

Edit: Win or lose, I still won because I had fun.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Humboolt

[Dafroog]

I don't think a lot of pvpers will be willing to pay for a subscription with THAT as the reward. It's nice to think that it would work, and it might sound like a nice idea at first. But you will see, it will get boring as all hell, fast, once ppl realize the gear progression is gone and the carrot was eaten too fast when everyone got the best pvp gear in the game from afking in warzones for war hero comms that they can get win or lose.

 

You'll see. This ain't my first rodeo, seen this all happen plenty of times before in similar forms in similar games.

 

Yes because most pvp games dont have some form of ranking or rating system they mostly rely on gear, right?

 

Rankings ladders etc are the staple of pvp progression across genres, gear is finite when it comes to pvp, once its obtained its obtained, rankings last forever because unless you are number 1 there is always something to work towards and if you are number one you have to work to stay there

 

 

There will be stats progressions for those who have done it longer vs. those just starting out. Like it or not, it is not all cosmetic.

 

And even if it was, ppl would still play because there is a lot of pvp content, that will hopefully be fun. Fun pvp went out the window a long time ago in this game.

 

It is purely cosmetic as the exact same stats are availible from pve, you dont have to pvp in order to keep up with the stats at all therefor it isnt pvp gear progression, you will just gain xp and gear while doing wvwvw and it will be the same level and stats as gear and xp you would be getting just questing, so no those who are pvping for longer will have no gear advantage over those of the same level pvping for the first time

 

infact its less pvp gear progression than 1.2 in swtor is offering because at least in 1.2 you have to pvp in order to get the gear, that isnt the case in gw2 at all.

 

And when you say a lot of pvp content, you mean the 4 maps and a opvp zone theyre launching with? Because at the last count swtor has 3 maps with a fourth coming in 1.2 and 1.5 opvp zones, so i dont see that there is all that big a difference tbh besides the fact that gw2 opvp zone might actually run well

[ForceWelder]

For people to claim that PVP represents a small minority within the game, my first question to you would be then why do we have over 80 pages of responses so far?

 

To me that represents an equivalent of a poll where only a small selection of people voice their opinion yet in the end that same group of polled people represent a much larger group as a whole.

 

So considering the number or responses and views of this thread then one of two things must be true.

 

1. The PVPers aren't as small a minority as you think.

2. The "majority" is being very vocal and trying to persuade people that PVPers are indeed a minority.

 

Either way, I think Bioware has issues to face with their PVP changes down the road.

 

But with that said, minority or majority Bioware faces subscription losses if the PVP community isn't happy with the final product. I have been a dedicated PVP player for a number of years (more than a decade) and I have seen PVPers leave games never to return.

 

And if you say "good bye and good riddance" let me give you one example where I know the numbers because I experienced them first hand.

 

Not to long ago another game came out that had a more open PVP system and the PVP community flocked to it. That game was Age of Conan. Maybe some of you have heard about it?

 

At any rate I joined a hard core PVP guild. This guild was made up of guys who didn't even sleep during early release. They played nonstop. Some for more than two days without taking more than a break. Why would they do this? So they could get ahead of the curve. Be the gankers and not the gankees. To grief, kill, slaughter anyone outside of the guild who had the nerve to enter a zone the guild was in. And many of these guys never played solo. After release you wouldn't find them in game unless they were grouped with out guildmates.

 

On release, AoC sold approxiamately 700k copies. Small by todays standard but was considered a success at the time. My guild *****, pilaged, and slaughtered every day. We would take over an entire zone and simply gank every person who stepped foot on it for hours on end. And when other guilds wanted to do large scale PVP, we would go to the fortification zones and do similar seige style events. If we lost, we simply rebuilt the base the next day. When you can control a zone, you can control the resources spawning there. Those our base never really stayed destroyed for long.

 

I bring this story up because in some ways AoC and SWTOR share some similar issues in regards to PVP. One, you are limited in your options. In AoC you had open world. In SWTOR you have warzones. Both get old very quickly without variety. In both games you also had the option for large scale PVP in dedicated zones. In AoC you had seige areas. In SWTOR you have Ilum and Tattooine. But both suffered the same problem - excessive lag when a large group of players got together so this system wasn't used very often.

 

The point of all this is in the numbers. Within 30 days of AoC being released my guild already had people talking of quitting. They were tired of doing the same thing every day over and over again. Within two months, almost my entire guild left the game. Within three months I was gone myself. On our PVP server you would have been hard pressed to find any of the "hard core" pvpers left to do a seige event with.

 

As I stated early, AoC sold over 700k copies within the first month. When I left, AoC didn't even have 350k active subscriptions. They had literally lost 1/2 their player base in under 3 months.

 

Is it that bad in SWTOR? I have no idea. But I do know I don't have to contend with server queues any more while warzone queues grow longer and longer each day. And the number of players at either fleet is growing smaller and smaller. And did I mention I play on a PVP server? A server you actually had to wait to get on because of the volume of players!

 

So argue that PVP doesn't matter and I say you are simply fooling yourselfs. PVP and PVPers do matter and unless the game tries to find more ways to keep this group of players active and involved you PVEers are going to find yourselves playing in empty worlds surrounded by noniteractive npcs.

Edited March 12, 2012 by ForceWelder

[VoidJustice]

Real PVP'er here.

 

I would much rather fight people in equal gear, organized or unorganized, then it comes down to skill vs skill (and yes sometimes class vs class) in a fight.

 

The ones I win are more gratifying that way.

 

The ones I lose teach me to be a better pvper.

 

Edit: Win or lose, I still won because I had fun.

 

quoted for truth... this IS the true PVPer perspective...

 

seriously thou... it takes 2 weeks (casual) to get to like 460ish expertise, what are they gonna do? Does it even matter when were discussing something that takes a week or so to earn.

 

All the crying over this is a bit insane. I could see it if you were saying it's CURRENTLY TOO EASY... at least then you'd have a leg to stand on.

 

If your truly upset, petition to STRIP EVERYONE OF ALL VALOR AND GEAR, make BM/Valor 60 take a year or 2 to earn and then we can talk. It'd be fine with me too and I just started getting descent gear.

 

If you want to "earn" gear for pvp over a year or longer go play Darkfall/Eve... lol

 

otherwise were getting all passionate about the arrangement of chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

Edited March 12, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Scoobings]

Forums make me face-palm.

 

The reason he means the people with the best gear are in general better players than nub 50s is because they have spent many many many hours practicing. If they spend this amount of time in the game the also most likely do research as well as theory craft.

 

You are correct gear does not equal skill. But.... the people who spend time getting that gear does usually equal better skilled players in the population.

 

There is a difference between cent and bm but there is only a very small difference between champ and bm. Once you have cent right now you are more than ready to be a big part of the game.

 

I disagree in a very general sense. A lot of people farmed valor through Ilum and/or Pre-made vs PUG farming and a a result even though they've played quite a bit they've very rarely had a challenge and almost have no clue how to handle it when faced with one.

 

Then you add into the equation that some classes are very easy compared to others (mercs and sorcs) and you get a pretty substantial amount of battlemasters who can't tell their *** from the enemy.

 

I've met a LOT of totally fail battle masters. If they didn't have the gear that they have they wouldn't even break 200k on the damage meters.

[Dafroog]

I disagree in a very general sense. A lot of people farmed valor through Ilum and/or Pre-made vs PUG farming and a a result even though they've played quite a bit they've very rarely had a challenge and almost have no clue how to handle it when faced with one.

 

Then you add into the equation that some classes are very easy compared to others (mercs and sorcs) and you get a pretty substantial amount of battlemasters who can't tell their *** from the enemy.

 

I've met a LOT of totally fail battle masters. If they didn't have the gear that they have they wouldn't even break 200k on the damage meters.

 

Idd, all you need is enough time in order to get the top end gear, I watched towliee get BM live, he was naked dancing on illum occasionally hitting is buff button, that doesnt require any skill at all

[Kungpaoshizi]

Yhea, bunch of people who quit simple because of "rumor" without actually seeing for themselves are not kind of players any company want to cater to.

 

They would have quit eventually for some other perceived injustice and it is silly to even pay attention to them.

 

lol this is the way I feel about the people in the SGR thread..

 

I mean really, you either, like the game, or don't like the game (because it's freakin star wars!)

Not because you can't get the game tailored to you. Only 1 person of perhaps millions. Oh wait, I guess if you complain enough you'll find yourself another 10-20 people! yays!

[Kreztin]

All I know is that there is a SERIOUS balance issue that needs fixing and weld the holes so exploiters wont feel the need to cheat even though they have BM gear. I call it like I see it , if the shoe fits... Additionally , if you really NEED to cheat in an MMO you need a kick in the wedding tackle. just saying.

[ForceWelder]

Real PVP'er here.

 

I would much rather fight people in equal gear, organized or unorganized, then it comes down to skill vs skill (and yes sometimes class vs class) in a fight.

 

The ones I win are more gratifying that way.

 

The ones I lose teach me to be a better pvper.

 

Edit: Win or lose, I still won because I had fun.

 

The problem (as I see it) is that skill never comes into play with PVP. Why? Because it is rarely about skill. Because PVP comes down to a game or rock, paper, scissors.

 

You have three classes: dps, healer, tank.

 

If DPS is the rock, then healer is the paper. That then leaves the tank being the scissors.

 

So how does this work? As a healer you can go one of two ways. Be a hybrid or be a full spec healer. As a full spec healer, you should be able to out heal your damage. You dps is so gimped that you aren't going to kill anybody. But when faced 1 vs 1, you have enough defensive tools to keep yourself alive indefinately. This makes you the paper to the dps rock and if you are a hybrid, their lack of armor leaves the door open for you to actually kill them.

 

Now enter the scissors. Tanks tend to have access to interrupts ov very short cooldowns. This is the bane of the healer class. Interrupt all my healing abilities and I can't heal. If I can't heal then I die. It really is just that simple.

 

Yet face a tank against a dps class and those same interrupts tend not to be of use. DPS has access to more short activation timed abilites. And with the lesser damage produced by the tank, the tank should lose to the dps.

 

Thus again rock, paper, scissors.

 

The point is, where does the skill come in to this scenario? When one group is designed to kill another group (but not a third), skill doesn't come to play at all.

[Scoobings]

The problem (as I see it) is that skill never comes into play with PVP. Why? Because it is rarely about skill. Because PVP comes down to a game or rock, paper, scissors.

 

You have three classes: dps, healer, tank.

 

If DPS is the rock, then healer is the paper. That then leaves the tank being the scissors.

 

So how does this work? As a healer you can go one of two ways. Be a hybrid or be a full spec healer. As a full spec healer, you should be able to out heal your damage. You dps is so gimped that you aren't going to kill anybody. But when faced 1 vs 1, you have enough defensive tools to keep yourself alive indefinately. This makes you the paper to the dps rock and if you are a hybrid, their lack of armor leaves the door open for you to actually kill them.

 

Now enter the scissors. Tanks tend to have access to interrupts ov very short cooldowns. This is the bane of the healer class. Interrupt all my healing abilities and I can't heal. If I can't heal then I die. It really is just that simple.

 

Yet face a tank against a dps class and those same interrupts tend not to be of use. DPS has access to more short activation timed abilites. And with the lesser damage produced by the tank, the tank should lose to the dps.

 

Thus again rock, paper, scissors.

 

The point is, where does the skill come in to this scenario? When one group is designed to kill another group (but not a third), skill doesn't come to play at all.

 

The answer to your question is:

 

When Paper beats Scissors.

[Dafroog]

It isnt rock vs paper vs scissors, its rock paper and scissors vs rock paper and scissors

[WarheartZero]

Forums make me face-palm.

 

The reason he means the people with the best gear are in general better players than nub 50s is because they have spent many many many hours practicing. If they spend this amount of time in the game the also most likely do research as well as theory craft.

 

You are correct gear does not equal skill. But.... the people who spend time getting that gear does usually equal better skilled players in the population.

 

There is a difference between cent and bm but there is only a very small difference between champ and bm. Once you have cent right now you are more than ready to be a big part of the game.

 

Where did you get your information. Just cause someone is on longer then you has never made them automatically more skilled. Your response assumes quite a bit. Especially for a gamer.

MMOS are easy because most things are time based. Especially when most are gear based.

[SneakyErvin]

DAoC had realm rank grinds that gave stats. And WAR hammer had a nasty end game gear progression. The difference in stats between Warlord Gear, and Soviergn Gear was much huger of a gap than champ or BM gear in this game. So what are you talking about?

 

I loved RVR though, would have been better though with 3 fractions like DAoC.

 

Nothing wrong with ranks and grinding, it was a personal ladder anyone could climb, it just took time and effort, but everyone could get there. Thats what I'm talking about, everyone had a shot at it, it just took people a longer time to get there. But you could work at it in your own pace.

 

Rated systems like in WoW or a system like it had with a weekly cap is also crippling for those that cant take time each week to get the weekly cap or keep their rating.

 

A system like ToRs where you grind point, rank and tokens is the best type. Because every player can take their time when they have it to grind some points, ranks or tokens.

 

Lets say I work very odd hours, I work one week and I'm free the next.

 

With WoWs system along with the weekly cap and all that I would lose huge amounts of honor aswell as having a hard time with ratings. I could never catch up what I miss during my working week because the cap wont allow me.

 

Is that fair to the playerbase? No, not even close.

 

Same work hours in this game. Not a single problem, because the week I'm off I can grind till my brain bursts and eyes bleed if I feel the need to catch up.

 

I just dont think many people understand how the real world can treat people that are forced to work or just dont have time to play because of other reasons. Games are supposed to be fun.

 

And @ whoever mentioned AFKing people grinding ranks and buying a full BM set as a fresh 50. What are you smoking? There is no way to AFK WZs up to 50 and hit BM by that time or even have tokens to buy the gear.

 

Yes they cost 1k WZC and 1k MC. But you need to have rank 60 to buy them in the first place. You still need medals to get a decent amount of valor. AFKing and losing brings you close to nothing.

[NIGHTRUS]

I can't get lucky and find folks to do dailies. I am a brand new level 50 healer and cant solo them lol, I am SOL and not gonna stay patient. All the flashpointers advertise for geared players so I am like *** am I to do. I am trying but its going to be awhile and it seems folks are dropping like flies lately

[Planar]

I for won CHEER that that kind of people are leaving, ya know them dont you, soon as other team plants first bomb in voidstar they bail, soon as first score made by other team in huttball gone, soon as 2 turrets down in civil war they bail. GOOD BYE

 

Bioware I will be more than happy to subscribe twice as long now

[Caeliux]

Just wanted to inform bioware that tons of the members of several pvp guilds on my server are quitting after the news that rated warzones will be the new valor grind, except any requirements at all. One large pvp guild also disbanded yesterday.

 

I stopped right here ^, and didn't even bother to read into it any more.

 

My question to you OP is,

 

Are you a spokesman for your server and all them guilds?

 

Or are you basing this by all the trolling going on about the game?

 

I put money that you are feeding us more bs on top of all the other bs these forums spread.

 

Good luck where your money takes you, and shame on you to troll us on another cry me a river post.

 

FIN

[sensiblepoast]

It isnt rock vs paper vs scissors, its rock paper and scissors vs rock paper and scissors

 

Rock paper and scissors, also also known as "Sorcerer".

 

Fun fact.

[Sugarray]

I for won CHEER that that kind of people are leaving, ya know them dont you, soon as other team plants first bomb in voidstar they bail, soon as first score made by other team in huttball gone, soon as 2 turrets down in civil war they bail. GOOD BYE

 

Bioware I will be more than happy to subscribe twice as long now

 

You are short sighted, people leaving this game is bad for you. Especially when PvP is changing in such a fashion that it is, you want to keep both sides of the debate happy, cause this is a huge matter. If you only cater casual people this game will die, also true if you only cater hardcore players.

[battlehobo]

Hell I'll actually pick up my sentinel again for PvP instead of leaving her sidelined. It's too time consuming trying to grind up gear on multiple characters. If people want to quit. Let them. What do I care?

[Sugarray]

Hell I'll actually pick up my sentinel again for PvP instead of leaving her sidelined. It's too time consuming trying to grind up gear on multiple characters. If people want to quit. Let them. What do I care?

 

You care because if people leave this game will die, cause we're not talking about your random QQ idiot that whines, its a large part of the PvP community. I dont like people threatening to quit more than you do, but its bad for all of us if people leave.

[Kittster]

Just wanted to inform bioware that one of the members of my guild is quitting after the news that he isn't renewing his game card. I need a very dramatic sentence here.

 

Now I wonder, who's idea was it that "rated" pvp, would not mean I get better gear than people who like to solo queue? All they are doing now is making me work harder on more even ground.

 

I will threaten to cancel sub and prolly play just as much, but pvp just gets boring when things are even.

 

High warzone rating = good gear

Low warzone rating = good gear

 

Endgame pvp gear worth working for = good gear

Chance of getting bored from lack of worthwile "goals" pvp wise: I don't want to go back to WoW, but I will I swear !

 

You failed with Ilum, and now you fail with this. Both had good potential. <editors note: I disagree, Ilum always sucked>

 

Clickers and backpeddalers that run around playing rambo in pvp with no tactics in their head should NOT have the same gear that I do.

 

Yay for truth edits.

[battlehobo]

You care because if people leave this game will die, cause we're not talking about your random QQ idiot that whines, its a large part of the PvP community. I dont like people threatening to quit more than you do, but its bad for all of us if people leave.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the game as a whole dying. At least not in the next couple months. By then I'll probably have had my fill. If numbers start dipping real bad on subs I'm sure the folks at BW will start taking precautions. Server merges, renewal incentives and so on. Besides, being the sole person on Corellia today for about two hours, how would I know the difference if its live or dead?

[Sugarray]

I wouldn't worry too much about the game as a whole dying. At least not in the next couple months. By then I'll probably have had my fill. If numbers start dipping real bad on subs I'm sure the folks at BW will start taking precautions. Server merges, renewal incentives and so on. Besides, being the sole person on Corellia today for about two hours, how would I know the difference if its live or dead?

 

People leaving is a slippery slope.

Without any solid facts about this, I assume that when people leave a game, presumably in anger/disgruntled, they will not return.

 

I for one care about the longevity of the game

[robegan]

Let them quit. I'd rather those type of people were not in the game to start with. Warzones need to be competative and not all about geeks who play 24/7 and have the best gear.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^