You and Gunslingers/Snipers

[JoyProtocol]

Hi dear Shadows,

 

I am a leveling Gunslinger (37) and do a fair bit of pvp. All "50 pvp is different lol" aside, I find that Assassins and Shadows are a non-threat to me - I can kill them easily enough with burst, and they can't kill me when I'm in cover.

 

This was really brought to my attention when a guildie asked to duel to try out new abilities. There was absolutely nothing he could do, and that has gotten me thinking.

(It took me two duels to get used to the defensive CD. Then I learned it existed, and it became a null point)

 

Now this is not a "I am l33t you suck" - I am actually concerned that you guys don't have a good way to defeat a good gunslinger/sniper.

 

From my perspective: I can knock your out of stealth with ease (ground-target AOE. Predicting player movement is cake after years of MOBA.), I have CC immunity while I can knock you back, stun in melee, have a low CD immobilize and can even dodge/shield your attacks (In my case, I am a saboteur - I shield at 30% strength, twice at will due to synergy).

 

It seems that I can neutralize you fairly easily, while you can't burst me down well enough.

 

Does your synergy begin later in levels? Or is everyone I'm playing against just really bad? Otherwise, there may be some balance concerns.

Edited March 9, 2012 by JoyProtocol

[Anelyn]

In open area sniper / GS will neuter any class except pyro pt / vanguard assault which will outdamage and outburst you through all your CDs (elemental dmg + 90% armor pen HiB / Rails vs your Weapon dmg eating their full heavy armor mitigation - lol 20% armor pen debuff).

 

But in a real setting, like any WZ or open world, you won't have any chance vs a sin / shadow , they will just vanish your entrench - so easy to see it, and then you are left there counting the seconds until you will die pretty much. Yes you can do a lot of dmg, but without hunker down and stacking defensive CDs you can do nothing vs any other dps who is smart enough to tap you, then los. I can pillar shoot a sniper / gs on my merc or operative without them getting a single hit on me because of no line of sight message, while I constantly pop and shoot / throw nades / instant shots etc and you can't aim a single skill (is not hard to wait for instant snipe to expire 6s, then strafe again etc).

[Hethroin]

Shadows are missing too many key abilities at 32, and too many spec points.

 

Between force cloak or force speed (LoS) to counter hunker down and leg shot, and deflection and resilience to reduce incoming damage I have no trouble against snipers on my 50 shadow, especially if I open on them from stealth as opposed to them tagging on me from a perch in huttball.

 

Tank spec shadows have the upper hand in a shadow v sniper duel; I would imagine infiltration shadows have it harder.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Hethroin

[AceofHeart]

snipers and sorcerers are the easiest kill for me as kinetic shadow.

[Philosomanic]

I think a large part of the problem is just that we mature late.

 

For example, I'm Balance. Balance relies in large part on a constant stream of DoTs, which do a large part of our damage, self-heal every crit, and provide force regen. The top six points of my skill tree (level 34-40) give me a third DoT (with 30m range, a 2s root, and high internal damage), +150% self-healing, and 10-15% more damage. So in stead of sporadic heals for ~80 (at my level), I'll be getting heals for 160, and 50% more often. They stack up fast in a 1v1.

 

The same goes for Infiltration (our burst spec). Infiltration relies on building procs with melee skills for a little while, and then unleashing force skills and proc-reliant melee skills for a huge burst of damage. The top 6 points of the Infiltration tree give +50% critical multiplier to our two biggest-hitting skills, +30% damage to one of them, and slightly higher melee damage. This means that the burst goes up by insane amounts.

 

Kinetic (tank spec) is going to be the hardest for you to take down, overall. They have really high shield and defense chances, which will really hurt you since you're weapon-damage reliant, and they still have good DPS output. They also mature earlier, at lvl 36. They get DPS boosts after that point, but all of their core abilities for PvP are in place at 36.

[JoyProtocol]

Interesting, thanks. I'm glad to know it's not a class for me to write off.

 

Sounds like the first Warzones at 50 are going to be extremely rough. I look forward to it!

[Philosomanic]

I have a sneaking suspicion that I was the Shadow he's talking about. In my defense, I was only level 34, missing my best talents and a key defensive CD, and I had rolled balance about 10 minutes before the fights.

 

Also, you (if it was you) played better than me. But still, I wasn't a complete failure given the context.

[Lysico]

Why even talk about pvp pro/cons prior to 50.

 

Many classes won't come into their own till late in the game.

 

So saying you do well vs "x" class sub 50 means nothing.

[E-Zekiel]

Why even talk about pvp pro/cons prior to 50.

 

Many classes won't come into their own till late in the game.

 

So saying you do well vs "x" class sub 50 means nothing.

 

There always has to be someone to come in and say herp derp OMG ONLY 50 MATTERS ANYTHING BEFORE IS WORTHLESS.

 

Why talk about it? because people PVP prior to 50 is why. There need be no further justification; that is all that matters, lol.

 

 

With that said, prior to 50 as an assassin (mirror to Shadow), it depends on the assassin's spec. Tank assassins fair much better against gunslingers/snipers than DPS assassins. DPS assassins really don't bloom until later, whereas tank shadows/assassins bloom earlier.

[JoyProtocol]

I have a sneaking suspicion that I was the Shadow he's talking about. In my defense, I was only level 34, missing my best talents and a key defensive CD, and I had rolled balance about 10 minutes before the fights.

 

Also, you (if it was you) played better than me. But still, I wasn't a complete failure given the context.

 

Could well be, I am Arcadius on The Swiftsure. You did well, my "complete failure" is more a response to Shadows in warzones that beat on me impotently. But my original post made me look like an ***, that's my own fault

 

Given what the folks here are saying, I look forward to a rematch once we both break 40!

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

In Warzones I harress snipers to keep them from wrecking my team mates.

[Lysico]

There always has to be someone to come in and say herp derp OMG ONLY 50 MATTERS ANYTHING BEFORE IS WORTHLESS.

 

Why talk about it? because people PVP prior to 50 is why. There need be no further justification; that is all that matters, lol.

 

 

With that said, prior to 50 as an assassin (mirror to Shadow), it depends on the assassin's spec. Tank assassins fair much better against gunslingers/snipers than DPS assassins. DPS assassins really don't bloom until later, whereas tank shadows/assassins bloom earlier.

 

And prior to 50, it means nothing. You can't say do "x" better or "y" different when you don't have the skills yet.

 

No clue what the herp or derp thing means, assume that is just some slang. /shrug.

[Ravzar]

Tank specced asssins at 50 are a major threat to GS since they have 100% dodge for 5s, cc immunuty for 5s, then 50% dodge for 15s. There is a long period of time where the GS just can't do that much. The 5s of not being able to cc is the real killer. You can't do much against someone immune to damage and cc. DPS shadows arn't too bad if it is just them hitting me because I can normally cc them to keep the range and go from there. However, a GS in the dot spec may be able to beat a tanking shadow consistently with kiting/losing/dots but this would take a while and it is not really practical in most situations.

[Esteledain]

JoyProt, you are in for some harsh realities I'm afraid...

 

I am L50 Shadow, and L50 Gunslinger. I leveled the Shadow for PvE, because my guild needed a tank. I did some PvP on him while leveling, but I always got my behind gift-wrapped and handed back to me, so I figured shadows suck at pvp and never really bothered with him. I made my GS a pure PvP toon...

 

And it worked very well. I leveled my GS with a focus on PvP and he rocked. Always came out on top in numbers and medals, and I was very satisfied. I had made the right choice; GS was obviously the right choice for me in PvP.

 

Then my GS turned 50...

 

The massacre that ensued is better left in silence....

 

I spent a whole month trying to figure out what was wrong. I changed builds. I changed tactics. I changed rotations. Nothing worked. I was still a wet rag in a very angry dog's mouth. And I got frustrated. Then a guildy said, "but don't you have a shadow??? I saw a youtube vid, and shadows rock?"

 

So I checked the vid out. I checked my shadows build out. I realized that my shadow, having spent the last two months running flashpoints, now had pretty awesome gear. So I took him for a spin. And he owned. There is no other word for it... the Shadow, in a 31/0/10 build. is a very very strong fighter. I eat Snipers for breakfast. And lunch. Heck, I'll enjoy a nice Sniper any time of the day.

 

My GS is retired. He is not very good for competitive PvP at endgame, pure and simple. Gunslingers just don't have any survivability. Your Shadow friend, whom you kill so easily, may need some hints and tips. Because as a GS, you are the least dangerous enemy for a Shadow on the battlefield.

 

Simply put, I'll just hit my CDs, wait for you to do your thing, then get up close and personal, and kill you. And there is nothing you can do about it. You have no "Oh ****" skill. You cannot disappear. And you have no big hitter that gets through my defenses. If you pop your defensive skills, fine, you can sit there and look pretty for 20 secs, I'll just run off and hit somebody else for a little while, then get back to killing you, because hey, I know you won't go anywhere ^^ You can't move....

 

I apologize if this sounds a little bitter, but well, I know what you are about to go through. I felt strong when I hit 50, I looked forward to the PvP. Then facts hit me like a brickwall.

 

So to sum up...no, you won't be killing shadows at 50. They will kill you. You need a serious buff if anyone is ever going to take you seriously. BW has dropped the ball big time regarding gunslingers. No one is afraid of gunslingers. I don't even pause if I see a Sniper/Gunslinger. I kill him, and move on to what I was really doing.

 

Is that how it should be? No. I thought my GS was going to be a force to be reckoned with. I realized that he was a glass cannon. I thought that he would be able to deal damage from afar, and that he consequently would have somewhat limited defenses, but I expected him to have skills to keep people at a distance. I was wrong. Resolve will make sure that everyone can just laugh at your puny attempts at CC. And your DPS will not scale very well with level. On top of that, you are pretty much the only class that deals almost exclusively weapon damage. Check out the mitigation discussions to understand how useless that is...

 

Bottom line...you are not a glass cannon, you are a paper peashooter. On the positive side, underpowered classes have a tendency to get buffed in MMos, in the eternal see-saw of balance.

 

So hang in there! But don't expect to kill a lot of Shadows for now

[JoyProtocol]

JoyProt, you are in for some harsh realities I'm afraid...

...

 

It's good to see an opposing opinion, even if a bit bitterly delivered. My guildmate was not the poor player; he played smarter than the average assassin in pvp, but he made me reflect on other shadows and assassins, and realize I can't remember the last time I lost to one - even if they get a jump on me. I'm thinking of Huttball upper levels.

 

I like to think my experience will differ, as I do have ways to deal with several things you've described. It sounds like your server has some fairly poor snipers that are addicted to Ambush, but I digress

 

And I have heard that tank-specced shadow/assassins are a hard nut to crack - for everyone. Tanks do well against bursty dps. What about the other two specs, though?

Edited March 10, 2012 by JoyProtocol

[Xinika]

Snipers/Gunslingers are my favourite targets :3.

[Xinika]

 

And I have heard that tank-specced shadow/assassins are a hard nut to crack - for everyone. Tanks do well against bursty dps. What about the other two specs, though?

 

You probably won't even hurt a tank sin.

 

Infil will burst you down faster most likely, but you have a moderate chance of actually beating them.

 

Balance has range and heals so they're more than likely to keep up with and outlast you.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Xinika

[GFreeGamer]

You probably won't even hurt a tank sin.

 

Infil will burst you down faster most likely, but you have a moderate chance of actually beating them.

 

Madness has range and heals so they're more than likely to keep up with and outlast you.

 

A fellow BM GS actually told me that as far as duels go, the only Shadow spec he has a chance of beating is Infil (not sure if it's because of an aspect of the playstyle or he feel sit's just bad). Otherwise, he'd only beat a really bad Shadow.

 

However, when I brought up his ability to top our damage charts, he always said that he can only dish out damage well enough in group skirmishes.

[JoyProtocol]

Thanks for all the response folks. I now look with trepidation to when my guildmate levels up, and when I hit 50. I look forward to the challenge though. Keep on being awesome, my sneaky friends.

[Joshrus]

Im sorry thats false.

 

I pvp as a 50 commando (cm) and a 29 shadow(infil).

 

I have zero problems with any ranged 0 nada.

 

Line of sight in warzones and a smart player, shadows can beat any class 1 vs 1. We can Leave a fight to fit our needs and engauge a fight on our terms. A good shadow is deadly. I cant even pull the dps my lvl 29 shadow has. It's nuts hitting for over 6k in 2 secs. My commando when he was gunnery hit hard, but not like that.

 

I go for ranged and healers on my shadow. 0 problems, i can't wait for my shadow to be 50.

 

I know i will get owned before i get gear just as my commando did, but once i do i will melt faces.

 

My commando is a nasty tank, i can usually tank heal(with reactive shield and koto) over 4 players. I built him that way due to him always be targeted.

[Philosomanic]

Line of sight in warzones and a smart player, shadows can beat any class 1 vs 1. We can Leave a fight to fit our needs and engauge a fight on our terms. A good shadow is deadly. I cant even pull the dps my lvl 29 shadow has. It's nuts hitting for over 6k in 2 secs. My commando when he was gunnery hit hard, but not like that.

 

I'm the Shadow he was fighting, FYI.

 

Saying "I can vanish" doesn't mean that you can beat them. It means that they can beat you, but not necessarily kill you. So if vanishing or avoiding the fight altogether is how you "win", they're better than you at fighting. You're just better at hiding.

 

I'm not a bad Shadow. This may sound like bragging, but it's simply based on my experience. I am in the top two or three for DPS in 9/10 Warzones, and my typical KB:death ratio is somewhere around 2:1 (Since I'm AoE and DoT-Slinging, my kill:death is often 5:1 or more). Arcadius is only the second person I've dueled in this game who could consistently beat me. Your average duel usually ends up with me gleefully melting face. I have quite a bit of practice in MMO PvP.

 

Also, he's a top-of-the line GS. I've killed my fair share of Snipers before, and they usually go down easy. Arcadius and I had similar gear levels, and he was only one level over me (which I count as essentially equal). But unlike the vast majority of GS/Snipers I fight, he was actually a challenge. This leads me to believe that most GS/Snipers simply cannot play their class effectively for PvP. It's not like he was slightly better than most; he was in a completely different league.

 

And I just passed 40, and last I talked to him (yesterday) he had a few quests to go. Now that I have Resilience and all my Balance talents (Sever Force is crazy!). We're going to rematch as soon as we're both on, and we'll see how things pan out then. I'm betting on a rough tie, since he defies the average and kicks *** on a Gunslinger.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Joshrus]

I'm the Shadow he was fighting, FYI.

 

Saying "I can vanish" doesn't mean that you can beat them. It means that they can beat you, but not necessarily kill you. So if vanishing or avoiding the fight altogether is how you "win", they're better than you at fighting. You're just better at hiding.

 

I'm not a bad Shadow. This may sound like bragging, but it's simply based on my experience. I am in the top two or three for DPS in 9/10 Warzones, and my typical KB:death ratio is somewhere around 2:1 (Since I'm AoE and DoT-Slinging, my kill:death is often 5:1 or more). Arcadius is only the second person I've dueled in this game who could consistently beat me. Your average duel usually ends up with me gleefully melting face. I have quite a bit of practice in MMO PvP.

 

Also, he's a top-of-the line GS. I've killed my fair share of Snipers before, and they usually go down easy. Arcadius and I had similar gear levels, and he was only one level over me (which I count as essentially equal). But unlike the vast majority of GS/Snipers I fight, he was actually a challenge. This leads me to believe that most GS/Snipers simply cannot play their class effectively for PvP. It's not like he was slightly better than most; he was in a completely different league.

 

And I just passed 40, and last I talked to him (yesterday) he had a few quests to go. Now that I have Resilience and all my Balance talents (Sever Force is crazy!). We're going to rematch as soon as we're both on, and we'll see how things pan out then. I'm betting on a rough tie, since he defies the average and kicks *** on a Gunslinger.

 

 

I was not saying you are a bad shadow.

 

My playstyle is jsut different.

 

I play my Shadow like an asassian. Meaning I wait for the perfect moment to strike or to counter ranged and healers.

 

My shadow is squishy, so if i get targeted, I normally, vanish, pop the def cooldown or force run away. In different combos of course.

 

It depends on your playstyle, some people like to play a shadow as in your face melee tank or dps. I perfer the subtle( not so subtle dps) side of infiltrater meaning I like to control how i enter and leave a fight.

[Xinika]

I'm the Shadow he was fighting, FYI.

 

Saying "I can vanish" doesn't mean that you can beat them. It means that they can beat you, but not necessarily kill you. So if vanishing or avoiding the fight altogether is how you "win", they're better than you at fighting. You're just better at hiding.

 

I'm not a bad Shadow. This may sound like bragging, but it's simply based on my experience. I am in the top two or three for DPS in 9/10 Warzones, and my typical KB:death ratio is somewhere around 2:1 (Since I'm AoE and DoT-Slinging, my kill:death is often 5:1 or more). Arcadius is only the second person I've dueled in this game who could consistently beat me. Your average duel usually ends up with me gleefully melting face. I have quite a bit of practice in MMO PvP.

 

Also, he's a top-of-the line GS. I've killed my fair share of Snipers before, and they usually go down easy. Arcadius and I had similar gear levels, and he was only one level over me (which I count as essentially equal). But unlike the vast majority of GS/Snipers I fight, he was actually a challenge. This leads me to believe that most GS/Snipers simply cannot play their class effectively for PvP. It's not like he was slightly better than most; he was in a completely different league.

 

And I just passed 40, and last I talked to him (yesterday) he had a few quests to go. Now that I have Resilience and all my Balance talents (Sever Force is crazy!). We're going to rematch as soon as we're both on, and we'll see how things pan out then. I'm betting on a rough tie, since he defies the average and kicks *** on a Gunslinger.

 

Wait, is this based on <50 fights?. You could just go Kinetic and he will literally not even have a snowball chance in hell.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Xinika

[Philosomanic]

I could... but I hate Kinetic. It just isn't the playstyle for me. Balance fits me perfectly, and even if it doesn't fully mature until endgame I'm still going to keep playing it. It takes me a while to make rotations second nature like they should be. After playing Infiltration from 10 to 34, the "DS -> DS -> Project" rotation was so unconscious that I had to move Project off my main bars for a few days.

 

Levelling up as Balance lets me learn how to play it well, so that when I hit 50 I'll already be a Balance pro. I'm a believer in levelling up as the spec you intend to play endgame, except for maybe healer (if it's too slow for you). Even tanks can level almost as fast as a DPS spec, thanks to having essentially no downtime and a DPS pet.

[roestzwiebel]

Never really had a problem with snipers or gunslingers on infiltration spec. Sure, with bad luck and all "cool things" still on CD or lucky crits by them that I weren't able to avoid it's not always a safe win. Or maybe I just had luck that I never met a gunslinger or sniper, who understands his class (Smuggler/Agent is the only class I never played by myself, so my knowledge about their abilities is "extendable" for sure and I can't really say, what they're doing wrong ) Edited March 12, 2012 by roestzwiebel