A Dark/Light vs Good/Evil Discussion

[Tadshackles]

I do not see Dark/Light as Good/Evil.

 

I have seen many Light side choices that were pretty horrible things to do and some Dark Side choices that were very nice. Like letting someone live u were sent to kill (as an empire player) you might get dark side points because it defies your superiors.

 

Yes sometimes it is cut and dry Dark-Kill Kid vs Light-give medicine

 

Overall I would say

 

Dark is the Passionate one. Dark embraces all emotion. Dark defies authority(which is sometimes good).

 

Light does as its told, never acts on feelings, lives for justice (which is sometimes misplaced evil)

 

By the time one reaches 10,000 one way or the other you will see that you aren't "EVIL" or "GOOD"

 

Anyone wanna chime in on it?

[Faydra]

I think a lot of the perception on the DS/LS choices depends on your class and if you're Republic or Imperial.

 

I ended up only making one DS choice on my BH (it was to punch a big jerk of a noble who was insulting me). In most of the cases, the DS choice really felt like the nasty choice - typically it was a kill or capture choice for my class quests and slow painful death or quick honorable death for planet quests. I really felt like the DS/LS choices were pretty black and white.

 

In comparison, my smuggler is fairly neutral, leaning LS. I really feel like the planet quests in particular are not as black or white. For example, the infamous medicine quest on Ord Mantell or the stopping a Senator from speaking on Coruscant.

 

In comparison, my husband leveled his SI purely DS. I would hear him cackle with glee when he would make a quest choice to punch kittens in the face.

 

Overall, for the Imperial quests, if you go DS, you can do some really dark and awful stuff. Going LS, you're still doing some nasty stuff but you're never a goody-goody about it. With the Republic, the LS choices feel really stilted and stiff and extremely goody-goody about them. DS seem at least interesting and like you're making a personal choice.

[grania]

I mentioned something like this recently, where I'm playing a jedi knight as if she were a lawful good paladin, because I was curious about this too. The very first mission I did I went with the dark choice - which was to smite the hell out of those flesh raiders.

 

I'm level 23 now and I'm about 1/3 dark and 2/3 light. The rules for being light or dark don't appear to be set in stone as good or bad, it really vacillates around. Like sometimes honesty is light and other times it's dark. Sometimes mercy is light and sometimes it's dark. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, to be honest.

I think a lot of the perception on the DS/LS choices depends on your class and if you're Republic or Imperial.

 

I wonder if it is purposely ambiguous, or just the result of having too many cooks in the kitchen? (:

Edited March 9, 2012 by grania

[VanorDM]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, to be honest.

 

Since you mentioned the Lawful Good Paladin... Try thinking of it like this.

 

Light side = Lawful Neutral. Dark side = Chaotic Neutral.

 

That's a bit of a over generalization of course, but it still seems to match up with the options you get in game. The Light/Dark options is a lot more about following a concept then it is a sense of morality.

[LyriaFrost]

Dark is the Passionate one. Dark embraces all emotion. Dark defies authority(which is sometimes good).

 

Light does as its told, never acts on feelings, lives for justice (which is sometimes misplaced evil)

 

This isn't true, though. And there are a number of quests that disprove that idea.

 

The quest on Coruscant where you go and steal the documents from the senator, who is going to give a speech on why the republic should ally/surrender to the empire. His attache confronts you and berates you for "spitting on the very ideals of the republic" by trying to prevent the senator from being able to give his speech. The light-side choice is to agree that, despite how much you disagree with him, he DOES have the right to have his say. The dark-side choice is to flout authority, and assume you know better.

 

A quest on (republic) Taris has you run across some soldiers who have been there for years, and are trying to go AWOL and leave the planet. The light-side choice is to show compassion for them, and help them escape the situation they're in -- even though it's breaking military law, and helping them commit a crime. The dark-side choice is to tell them to "suck it up and get back to work".

 

There are numerous quests on the empire side where the dark-side choice is to give into your sadistic/cruel side and kill/injure someone just for the hell of it, even though you don't need to. The light-side choice is to show compassion for them, and let them leave.

 

Ultimately, IMO, the light/dark choices tend to come down to compassion/empathy vs selfishness/greed. Sometimes those choices don't look at the long-term (for instance, a light-side choice letting a pirate go free rather than shoot him in the back, who's likely going to hurt more people in the long-run), and are instead focused more on the immediate reaction.

 

But yeah, it's definitely not good/evil. It's never that cut-and-dried.

[Shankspeare]

I love this thread becasue I really get into the game. When it comes to the game I am very torn. I have a Jedi and Sith both the same level but on different servers for this reason. I think I am more DS than anything. I enjoy the Jedi just because I love the story but I feel like i relate to my Sith toon. I am very emotional and feel driven by that. Its almost like when I play I am my toon. I see the DS very much like i view RL. Sith think for themselves and fight for themselves. Jedi are sheep and one track minded. Sith live with all emotions and that is perfect for me! The DS isnt evil the Jedi are just scared sheepeople!

[Truffula]

The light/dark side choices overall seem rather confused.

 

As one person above stated, sometimes lying is dark side and sometimes light. But that reflects how flexible a tool lying is.

 

A more notable inconsistency: sometimes killing someone is the light side choice and letting them suffer is dark side, sometimes the reverse. (Example of killing them being light side choice: Granthan's estate, Duchess's soldiers are turned into droids. kill them mercifully is light side. On the other side, killing the General on the first Imperial flashpoint is dark side; turning him over to your side to be tortured is light side. Inconsistent, completely.)

 

I still can't figure out the quest of the two droids (on Balmorra, in the Empire). One has an emotion chip installed and wants to save his comrade at the expense of their mission. The other has no emotion chip and wants to continue the mission. The dark side is to help them continue the mission. The light side is to do the emotional thing and help the emotion chip droid fix the other droid. I can't see this at all - dark side says be rational and light side says follow the emotion? Isn't it the exact opposite over in Jedi territory?

[Niddhog]

Jedi =/= emotionless robots. Jedi feel emotion, they feel compassion and empathy, thus seeking to alleviate this suffering (why JK roam the galaxy helping any they can/spreading peace). They just believe one should not be ruled by their emotions. You keep a level head and look at things rationally, thinking things through for the best option.

 

And as to the OP... its been clearly established in SW lore that you can't use positive emotions to fuel the dark side. The dark side is fueled by hatred and anger... and prolonged usage of the darkside corrupts ones soul as well as one's body (like palpatine). If there is on thing the dark side/sith code is all about, its POWER. If you spare someone as dark side its because you thought it a shame to waste potential resources. Use and be used. Otherwise its pure survival of the fittest.

 

Oh yes, as to the ambiguity... well that could be "too many cooks..." but I think it has more to do with the intention behind the action. Doing the right thing for the wrong reason/road to hell is paved with good intentions and all. That being said there is some bad writing in there... no matter how I look at it the ord mantel medicine quest is just wrong. One of the first quests (given by a soldier, said they were just undermanned at the point or something) has you killing separatists outside the base... separatists that are using refugees for target practice. Separatists that overran the village, and in general started the conflict (making them refugees). So the ill equipped soldiers can't spare medicine to help the refugees at every turn... so the cathar lady decides to play robin hood.... thus ensuring that the soldiers fighting to protect the refugees die (this point is made clear, some young kid fighting for refugees will die w/out it). As in, separatists overrun the medicine stash anyway (can't get to where she hid it). LS option is to let her keep her stolen goods, thus causing soldiers defending the camp/trying to retake village die. DS is giving it back to the soldiers. I just can't see what angle the writers were going here.... if the idea is the corrupt government is giving a big middle finger to the refugees... this isn't learned till later. At this point all you see is soldiers fighting/dieing to protect the innocent civilians/refugees. Even if the government is giving them too few supplies/doesn't want supplies given to refugees.... they shouldn't take it out on the soldiers dieing to protect them who also empathize with them. But faced with a decision to save a wounded soldier in a stalemate conflict, or save a refugee, they made the tough chocie of saving the soldier. This should at MOST be nuetral, but never dark side.

 

Oh yeah, threatening to kill the child in front of the refugee was unquestionable dark side >.>

Edited March 10, 2012 by Niddhog

[grania]

Yeah, it really doesn't work to assign any set of rules to it. I thought ok maybe it's: dark to do something to someone against their will.. wait no that doesn't work. Not if the person you're helping has a "dark" agenda. Like killing all the rakghouls like the captured jedi wants you to do instead of allowing them to be trained by the datacron guy.

 

(Which was even more hilarious after finding out

that the reason nekghouls are force sensitive in the first place is because they killed and ATE a bunch jedi who were trying to help them!)

 

 

Those crazy sith, gotta love em. Jedi can't even make up their mind on whether to destroy rakghouls or not. I just had to say, in my head, it's a good thing I'm not a jedi! *slaughters raks*

 

I don't believe that I favor one side more than the other, but I do enjoy playing a "good" character. It would be a lot less satisfying and interesting if I were playing the knight all light or all dark. I have to pay attention to each decision I make because light does not equal good, even though in more cases it is the good choice.

 

its been clearly established in SW lore that you can't use positive emotions to fuel the dark side

I agree with you, and it's a limitation of this genre/universe that can be a hard pill to swallow. I also think that your comment about intentions (and likewise agenda like I used) is probably the closest thing to defining light, even if sometimes, many times, I personally disagree on it being the right choice. But hey, that's another very famous SW theme, so I'll go with it.

Edited March 10, 2012 by grania

[NgeneR]

I find it interesting that people tend to get stuck on the "power" part of the Sith code. It goes on. Through power my chains are broken. The force will free me. (Something along those lines, anyway.) That makes me think that the Sith code is not a bad code.

 

Those Sith who go after power, and power only, without moving beyond, end up in trouble. Look at Vash, for instance, who ends up, quite literally, a monster. The inquisitor quests are parables of the dangers of seeking power just for the sake of power. You end up shattering your body and your mind while seeking the power to defeat Darth Thanaton. It's not until you heal both body and mind that you can defeat Thanaton.

 

An interesting sidelight is the mantra that Ashara mutters on occasion, and that makes me think the whole Sith versus Jedi thing is not simple at all. (I may not have this exactly right.)

 

Peace/power.

Knowledge/strength.

Serenity/power.

Force/freedom.

 

And then there's the Voss prophecy to go with it: Complete victory means total defeat. One side cannot exist without the other.

 

I don't know how well this fits in with the lore, but the game seems pretty consistent with this.

[Ashu-ri]

For me...I had my Jedi consular make decisions that would be right for the Republic....except I think one decision I can't remember.

 

 

With the Bareesh decision, I took the bribe on her because she knew it was important that the republic have as many hutts on their side as possible.

 

 

She is 700 points away from Light 5. I need to run Esseles a few time to get rid of those 700, but being a goody two shoes gets tiring.

 

With my commando, it was different. Soldiers have to make choices that aren't exactly the right thing to do - what's good for the republic may not always be "good" .....so at 50 (with story complete), she's sitting at Light 2, and varies usually only by diplomacy missions.

 

I was really thinking hard about taking my knight into the darkside. But....I just couldn't. I have her midway between light 2 and 3, but I do make dark choices with her, similar to my knight, but I find it harder and harder to make the dark choice as I progress.

However, now that my master has been killed by the Sith, it may be easier - acting in revenge rather than acting as a Jedi

 

 

I'm having a blast making mostly dark choices with my sith inquisitor, although there are some choices that I believe should be dark that are considered light.

[Kiralai]

It's all just really, really confusing. I've tried to hash it out with other people in a couple of different threads and couldn't come to much of anything conclusive except that it seemed to be that, in general, light-sided decisions are "merciful/good at the moment, regardless of implications" and dark-sided decisions are more often "chaotic/cruel/evil at that moment, regardless of implications." I say "at the moment" because there are some that are obviously done deviously or are evil in the long term, but are still light-sided because it involves sparing someones life at the moment instead of killing them, even if you are doing it for your own good, even if they would be tortured later, etc. I apologize, I can't remember who suggested this type of "classification" for light and dark decisions, but it was not an idea I came up with on my own, although I agreed with the person who posted it that it is most often true.

 

One example of that, on Imperial Agent, was an instance where I went and drugged a resistance fighter on Dromund Kaas (I think it was Dromund Kaas) in order to get information out of him. Essentially, he's drugged up so he's not coherent enough to make his own decisions but he can still follow my orders and answer my questions. Anyway, at the end the choices are to kill him (Dark Side), spare him and tell himself to turn himself in to the Empire (Light Side), or tell him "I don't care what you do, the drugs will wear off and you'll be fine" (neutral, no LS or DS gain either way). Well, okay, obviously killing him while he's drugged and defenseless is dark-sided, that's pretty apparent. The light-side one bothers me though. My agent is very light sided with regards to preserving life (she always tries to be diplomatic if it is an option), even though she is loyal to the Empire, and I could not bring myself to choose the Light Side option in this case. You just know the man is going to be tortured (or just plain shot on sight) when you tell him to go turn himself in. (For those who are familiar with the companion Kaliyo, this is pretty much confirmed based on the fact that she gives +15 affection for this answer. Kaliyo is a crazy *****, she never approves of the "merciful" choice. She prefers chaos and, usually, cruelty. That basically confirmed for me that the implication of the option was in fact that you are sending a drugged and incoherent man to turn himself in to people who will most likely torture and/or kill him.) I ultimately had to go with the neutral option even though it means that the guy would probably go right back to his resistance fighting against the Empire when he sobers up and recovers from his wounds. My character is loyal to the Empire, but I just could not, in (my IA's) good conscience, send a man walking to his death or to torture when he was too drugged up to make a conscious decision of his own. Yet it is a Light Side decision, because I am choosing to spare his life at the moment instead of shooting him myself.

 

Ultimately, the conclusion I came to is that, if you want to make a character that is deviously and wholly EVIL, you are going to end up with a character that has a handful of light side points (because to choose the dark side option every time would not result in the most evil character possible). And if you want to make a character that is deviously and wholly GOOD (or as close as you can get in SWTOR), then you are going to end up with a character that has a handful of dark side points or (in the case of my IA) one who turns down light sided options even though they exist because they are clearly evil by implication. If you pick the light sided options every single time (instead of certain dark side options or neutral alternatives) you will end up with a more evil character than if you had just settled with the neutral or dark side choice.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Kiralai

[_Corth_]

Lore - sith and darkside force use are evil.

 

game - written by people who are not perfect and thus will create inconsistencies.

 

comclusion - do not try to make an overarching lore statement about lightside and darkside based on the sotry dialogue options of your character in swtor.

[NgeneR]

Lore - sith and darkside force use are evil.

 

game - written by people who are not perfect and thus will create inconsistencies.

 

comclusion - do not try to make an overarching lore statement about lightside and darkside based on the sotry dialogue options of your character in swtor.

 

 

LOL--so who's making a generalization here? I find sith = evil, jedi = good too simplistic. The gray areas are a lot more fun.

[_Corth_]

LOL--so who's making a generalization here? I find sith = evil, jedi = good too simplistic. The gray areas are a lot more fun.

 

/sigh. Here I go explaining this again.

 

You are EXACTLY right. gray is more interesting. real life is gray and that is why a good story deals in gray areas and not black and white. That is why people try to MAKE aspects of the SW universe gray - specifically pertaining to lightside and dakrside.

 

let me explain to you why this is wrong. The whole point is that Lucas specifically intended the force to NOT be ambiguous. Why? because he wanted to tell the story about someone's rise, fall and then redemption through love. In his own words that is what star wars was always about. For this to be a powerful story there can be no ambiguity. Lucas never intended for there to be a debate on whether or not vader was evil. It dimishes the story if there was.

 

Using darkside powers makes you an evil person. doesn't mean there can't be specific instances of gray areas - such as a darkside user doing something good. but, they are all basically evil. it is what the darkside does to you.

 

tired of explaining this.

[Kiralai]

LOL--so who's making a generalization here? I find sith = evil, jedi = good too simplistic. The gray areas are a lot more fun.

Gonna have to agree with what Corth said above, although I do like the gray areas as well. I much prefer the expanded Star Wars universe than the one Lucas created in the six films. It's cool to like the gray areas better, you just gotta accept that's not how Star Wars was originally/officially conceptualized.

[sockrocker]

It is not just good over evil; few things in life are that simple. The common way to say it is, "Do you follow the way of the Open Palm or the Closed Fist?"

~ Master Smiling Mountain

Edited March 14, 2012 by sockrocker

[MORTTUUM]

I was stunned to get 50 DS points (or whatever it was) as a BH for shooting a guy who was hunting sapient beings (Mission "Trophy Hunter, I think) on Hutta. If I hadn't shot the guy, he would have ended up under the attentions of Nem-ro the Hutt. I'd rather be shot, nice and clean, thank you very much...

 

Beside, NO "all-or-nothing" philosophy ever really works, in the long run, as well as a constantly re-considered approach.

Edited March 14, 2012 by MORTTUUM

[owenthorn]

there is no light, there is no dark, only power, both sides seek it, both sides want it more than anything, only one side isn't afraid to use it, while the other side uses it at the orders of others, who really is weak??

[Saurrantion]

I agree there some choices that you make that I felt were lightside and choice that I thought were darkside and they end up being the reverse.

 

However when your design a game this big it would get to complicated to have a perfect system. I mean I can't grasp how a Jedi can be a Jedi and have nothing but Darkside points. To me that doesn't compute. I however just learn to accept it and move on it's not so bad that it ruins the game for me.

 

I'll tell you there lot of things in game that were designed that I don't think fit but I accept them, one such thing will be the Legacy system. However the game even with its flaws has some awesome story lines and combat frigen rocks and thus means I am having a blast so I can over look the flaws.

 

O by the way I think this is a thousand times better then SWG so thats a plus.

[Captain_Zone]

The Jedi fear emotions... They basically defeat themselves with the belief that ALL emotions lead to the Dark Side. I'm more with Revan that positive emotions can strengthen the bond to the Light Side. I pretty much made every light side decision possible with my Knight except for a few that I didn't really believe in, and he's level 50 and sitting at barely Light IV.

 

(Yes, my Knight slept with the Twi'Lek girl on Tython, and the early romance options for Kira give DS points.)

 

As for my Warrior, he's nearly Light V already, and only level 49 with most of Corellia left to go. If I can hit Light V before I face Baras, I'm going to pick the neutral path to kill him if possible... because I don't want him to live and maybe plot revenge.

[JediElf]

The Jedi fear emotions... They basically defeat themselves with the belief that ALL emotions lead to the Dark Side.

 

This...so much this!

 

Ever notice as well that when you play a Sith, that every Sith wants to live? They want to survive and grow in power?

 

Nearly every Jedi I met as a Sith has wanted to sacrifice their lives, they have no will to continue on. Perhaps they were planning on winning the fight but it seems like even they knew that would lose, and they didn't fear death...but didn't hold onto life either.

 

Their is no emotion...and it's true...and no will.

[grania]

This...so much this!

 

Ever notice as well that when you play a Sith, that every Sith wants to live? They want to survive and grow in power?

 

Nearly every Jedi I met as a Sith has wanted to sacrifice their lives, they have no will to continue on. Perhaps they were planning on winning the fight but it seems like even they knew that would lose, and they didn't fear death...but didn't hold onto life either.

 

Their is no emotion...and it's true...and no will.

 

I find this point interesting. I suppose it's why I'm so uneasy with playing an all lightside jedi - it makes me feel like my character is dead inside. But that happens no matter what I play if all I'm doing is picking blue or red and never really thinking about the implications.

 

Ps I'm still really enjoying my 2/3 light 1/3 dark jk. I'm not even sure I could go back to playing all one way or the other. Trying to stay completely neutral is kind of fun too in a different way though (even if it's out of place in Star Wars).

[TrueKalma]

The main problem I have playing a Sith is that all the common sense and tactical choices are considered Light Side, even if I roleplay a loyal servant of the Emperor.

 

You get two choiches: either kill X for no particular reason OR capture him alive so that he can be interrogated. Why is this a good vs evil choice?! It's a stupid-sadistic vs far-sighted choiche, clear as day!

And there are multiple situations where the Dark Side choice is basically "waste a potential resource just because real Siths are idiots". One mistake and you are to be executed in the Sith empire? This would NEVER work irl, mistakes are what make people learn and improve themselves, the Sith Empire should be made of only self-centered idiots that don't know how to deal with faliure and have no real understanding of overcoming limitations.

 

I hate, hate, hate the portrayal of the Empire in this game, it's so unpractical and simplistic that it makes me want to switch side to the republic...

[Ravshar]

The quest on Coruscant where you go and steal the documents from the senator, who is going to give a speech on why the republic should ally/surrender to the empire. His attache confronts you and berates you for "spitting on the very ideals of the republic" by trying to prevent the senator from being able to give his speech. The light-side choice is to agree that, despite how much you disagree with him, he DOES have the right to have his say. The dark-side choice is to flout authority, and assume you know better.

 

 

Except thats not what you are doing??? You are not directly stopping his plans to have the republic ally with the empire. The quest dialog says you are obtaining proof of his intentions only so you can reveal them to the public that elected him. Its up to the public that he is supose to be representing to stop him.

 

Unless they re-word the quest, it makes absolutely no sense for that choice to be darkside.