Vetting SWTOR (the wow effect)

[theninthlife]

So I will start by saying that this is going to be a somewhat negative rant. However, it will not be the typical "I'm taking my subscription money and quitting, no you can't have my stuff", whine fest. If you are a SWTOR addict and refuse to entertain any critisism of the game feel free to go ahead and move on.

 

I see a growing and interesting trend in MMO's as of late and SWTOR is no exception. There seems to be two periods of MMO play and design; before World of Warcraft and after World of Warcraft.

 

Before WOW, game designers were trying all kinds of new things. The engines and mechanics of games were as varied as the titles. Then Blizzard released WOW and turned the gaming community on its head.

 

I think we all understand that no engine is perfect. In MMOs there will always be shortcomings, bugs and things that are quirky and non-preferential. When SWG was released though, they were the envy of the gaming community with their radically advanced character customization options. There was alot of criticism about the game at release (much of it deserved) but in all honesty, every MMO gets a tremendous amount of criticism.

 

Let me break away from the train of thought and say that I do not advocate SWG as being a pinnacle of MMO play. Quite the contrary, I think that SWG is the poster child for what NOT to do to one's player base. More's the pity and point.

 

I played WOW for a time as well as a myriad of other MMOs, but I always found them to be very cookie cutter and constraining. Since WOW has been released, it seems that almost every MMO is taking steps to be similar while building on what has been done by Blizzard.

 

The result is that MMOs as whole are stagnating. While there are improvements to SWTOR, the basic engine is not tremendously different than that of WOW and I suspect that any and all MMO endeavors will be similar for a long time come. We in the gaming community are often times starving for something new.

 

I see many things happening. Players who left WOW are becoming more and more disenchanted as they come to the realization that SWTOR is not that far from the same game. Those who expected a space game are coming in and finding a gross disapointment and the hardcore gamers are getting several characters to 50 and then waiting around hoping that new content will be released soon.

 

I appreciate what Bioware has done and congratulate them on their accomplishment. As an extended game with new and inovative content though, I feel SWTOR is a bit of a dissapointment and will slowly begin to lose subscriptions as more people reach 50.

 

So what am I getting at? Well, I'm not rage quitting or making obtuse declarations. To put it in perspective though, I played SWG (flaws and all) for almost two years before I began to lose interest and needed a break. I've been at SWTOR for two months and already find myself drumming my fingers on my desktop trying to force myself to find something to do........

 

If you got this far, thanks for letting me vent. If you only read the first two paragraphs and have your flame ready feel free to light it up. As for me......for the first time I may actually consider trying out the SWG Emu. I would love to hear about that if anyone has any positive or negative stories.

 

In the mean time, I guess Ill just level a couple more toons till I find something else to do.

Edited March 9, 2012 by theninthlife

[DWarrior]

Wow, that was a pretty nice read man. I actually agree with you. I haven't played galaxies myself because I'll admit I was swayed away by the bad reviews Edited March 9, 2012 by DWarrior

[JorrdKarrd]

Agree with everything and yes the game sucks in its current state and yes I'm going to continue playing it for months on end because I have no life and I find this game adorable in that redheaded stepchild way, one day it will be awesome and I'd be glad that I sticked with it for so long when it sucked.

[JorrdKarrd]

Agree with everything and yes the game sucks in its current state and yes I'm going to continue playing it for months on end because I have no life and I find this game adorable in that redheaded stepchild way, one day it will be awesome and I'd be glad that I sticked with it for so long when it sucked.

 

PS: SWG had housing that kept me entertained for years, people paid me to decorate their houses, because it was time consuming and I found it to be awfully entertaining, the large tatooine houses just gave me goosebumps every time I entered one, and they still do even though they only linger in my memories. I hope SWTOR introduces housing one day that matches that quality, then I'll personally donate my cookie-jar money to Bioware.

Edited March 9, 2012 by JorrdKarrd

[Madgedull]

SWTOR is in massive need of new content and also some basics and other stuff to give it a more rounded feel, and to give you incentive to log in outside of raid times.

 

I did WoW for a month but it didnt ding me, but I played eq2 for 5 years before I got bored and came to SWTOR. There was always something in eq2 which made me log in to game and lose myself for hours. EQ2 was and is a very rounded game which has something for all play styles, whether you are a casual player, like game fluff or are hard core. Throughout my time with eq2 I fit in to all those categories and did all those things at some point.

 

However I think that we all forget that when a new MMO launches it is not the end product, and is far from perfect. MMO's morph over time to the polished end product we have fond memories of. They morph due to development, player feedback and new content etc. WoW and EQ2 were far from perfect when they were launched, they are both very different games today to when they were launched.

 

I am still at a suck it and see point with SWTOR, and am happy to see how the game pans out over the next few months.

[Starglide]

So I will start by saying that this is going to be a somewhat negative rant. However, it will not be the typical "I'm taking my subscription money and quitting, no you can't have my stuff", whine fest. If you are a SWTOR addict and refuse to entertain any critisism of the game feel free to go ahead and move on.

 

I see a growing and interesting trend in MMO's as of late and SWTOR is no exception. There seems to be two periods of MMO play and design; before World of Warcraft and after World of Warcraft.

 

Before WOW, game designers were trying all kinds of new things. The engines and mechanics of games were as varied as the titles. Then Blizzard released WOW and turned the gaming community on its head.

 

I think we all understand that no engine is perfect. In MMOs there will always be shortcomings, bugs and things that are quirky and non-preferential. When SWG was released though, they were the envy of the gaming community with their radically advanced character customization options. There was alot of criticism about the game at release (much of it deserved) but in all honesty, every MMO gets a tremendous amount of criticism.

 

Let me break away from the train of thought and say that I do not advocate SWG as being a pinnacle of MMO play. Quite the contrary, I think that SWG is the poster child for what NOT to do to one's player base. More's the pity and point.

 

I played WOW for a time as well as a myriad of other MMOs, but I always found them to be very cookie cutter and constraining. Since WOW has been released, it seems that almost every MMO is taking steps to be similar while building on what has been done by Blizzard.

 

The result is that MMOs as whole are stagnating. While there are improvements to SWTOR, the basic engine is not tremendously different than that of WOW and I suspect that any and all MMO endeavors will be similar for a long time come. We in the gaming community are often times starving for something new.

 

I see many things happening. Players who left WOW are becoming more and more disenchanted as they come to the realization that SWTOR is not that far from the same game. Those who expected a space game are coming in and finding a gross disapointment and the hardcore gamers are getting several characters to 50 and then waiting around hoping that new content will be released soon.

 

I appreciate what Bioware has done and congratulate them on their accomplishment. As an extended game with new and inovative content though, I feel SWTOR is a bit of a dissapointment and will slowly begin to lose subscriptions as more people reach 50.

 

So what am I getting at? Well, I'm not rage quitting or making obtuse declarations. To put it in perspective though, I played SWG (flaws and all) for almost two years before I began to lose interest and needed a break. I've been at SWTOR for two months and already find myself drumming my fingers on my desktop trying to force myself to find something to do........

 

If you got this far, thanks for letting me vent. If you only read the first two paragraphs and have your flame ready feel free to light it up. As for me......for the first time I may actually consider trying out the SWG Emu. I would love to hear about that if anyone has any positive or negative stories.

 

In the mean time, I guess Ill just level a couple more toons till I find something else to do.

 

Good post... I like reading well written ideas, even when I don't totally agree with them. Not agreeing doesn't mean I don't know where you are coming from, but coming from a similar intellectual point of view, I think that someone like myself may be able to talk you off the ledge.

 

I came from WoW and not SWG and despite what people may believe about hardcore WoW players, I wasn't hoping to get a WoW clone in space. I was, however, looking for something that had the things that WoW did PlUS more as I now feel MMOs are more of an evolving genre rather than an innovative one.

 

That beng said, there are some things I love about SWTOR and there are some things I wish they would address. I say address because I think it is unfair to expect BioWare to deliver what a 7 year old game has taken its life to develop.

 

I still find myself watching WoW videos and thinking about going back. But I realize now why I feel this way. It's not the game we miss, because there is a reason we wanted something more... It's the memories. tOR has a great foundation to grow and that is the most important part.

 

I think you should take my philosophy of giving this game at least 6 months. I plan to give it that because I feel that is sufficient time to see the direction of the developers and what to expect as far as evolving the title is concerned.

 

After seeing the panel for 1.2, I must say, my predictions and wishes for the game seem to be coming true. They addressed a myriad of issues and the amount of content they are releasing, the bits and pieces they have planned for the future are nothi short of encouraging and evolving.

 

In short, I hear you man but I think we all deserve (including the developers) to give it some time. We waited way too long to not give it a chance to evolve and create the memories that draw us to the genre.

[Devlonir]

I totally agree with what you said, but I am not sure if we can or should see it as a negative. WoW matured the MMO market and made it grow to an amount of people unheard of before WoW. Every MMO since has looked at that example and followed it one way or the other. But really, it is the same with many other (succesful) markets in gaming.

 

Look at the shooter market: Around the turn of the century, the Quake/Unreal type shooter was very popular. Pick up guns, pick up powerups, high jumps, etc. You carried tons of weapons and had a tool for every situation.

Then came the more realistic shooter. It started with Counterstrike and Team Fortress, what these had in common was limiting what one person could do and through that creating teamplay. You were forced to choose weapons, which often only had minor differences compared to the other, when coming into the game.

Many people disliked it, and there is still a market for the oldschool type shooter, but the current versions almost all have in common that every player has a limited amount of carrying capacity. Just look at the spiritual successor of Unreal and Quake: Halo. Even that game has you choose two weapons and run with them. And let's not even begin about the CoD and BF games.. these are all about very limited options to what one person can do in a match.

 

Let's now look at RPGs. There are really two different kinds here that also evolved over time. There is the Final Fantasy or Square kind: Your actions barely have impact on the story, but high mechanical customization of your characters is possible. This evolved over time and drew in a subset of RPG players that did not like the other kind; what I like to call the Bioware kind of RPG.

These are all about choice and having impact on the world around you, an involvement with the story, and all that other marketing jazz. But what it really comes down to is making the mechanical choices easier, or remove them entirely, and focus more on the action and story than the statistics. Many RPGs go one way or the other, and many of them are succesful.

 

I guess, what I am trying to say with examples is the following: People desire change, but do not accept it when things change too much. Small changes and evolving of game mechanics is normal and after a while, a franchise grows so much into one corner that it creates their own kind of market. It is normal, and it is healthy. And it is the major reason people that invest their money in a project prefer stick with the same old mechanics and create small growth instead of major upheavals of a prooven system.

 

I am not sure I want SWTOR to be that far away from a game I already know when I buy it.. but I do support the game growing away from it's predecessors over time and removing some of the old mechanics and conventions. The developers already added some new things (voice overs and companions), and choose not to include other old things (combat macros and full moddability). And with that, already choose a direction for the game that created a lot of drama and stress from the gamers. Do you really think this game would have it's current 1.7 million subs if it truly changed everything we know about MMO's?

Edited March 9, 2012 by Devlonir

[MORTTUUM]

...it seems that almost every MMO is taking steps to be similar while building on what has been done by Blizzard.

 

You appear to be unfamiliar with the concept of a "Business Model". When you run a business, that is, a FOR PROFIT organization, THE ONLY objective IS to make a PROFIT, PERIOD. WoW established a (very) profitable business model. no business trying to break that model will succeed until one surpasses WoW's level of success. That's "the REAL world" for you. Deal with it.

[archifikoss]

It may be a vent, but it was a good read nonetheless OP. I'm saying this as a fan of the game, for what it's worth. Edited March 9, 2012 by archifikoss

[Mephismo]

Got to agree with the OP this game sucks cant wait for the next one to be released.

The next one will probably suck too because these games have lost their way .

Well at least we a can all whine on the forums.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Mephismo

[Cancrizans]

I agree with you 100% OP...but the reality is that it isn't the "designers" fault. The business interests involved in the gaming industry are wholly responsible for the negative direction gaming has taken in the past 10 years, as those kinds of interests are also wholly responsible for the many negative paths all of human production and interest have taken since we apparently decided as a society that materialism and greed were where it's at instead of humanity and free creativity.

 

If we want these little and relatively insignificant things like computer gaming to change for the better, we need to stop supporting business as the primary structure and influence over our societies and our futures.

[Timtimbot]

Good post... I like reading well written ideas, even when I don't totally agree with them. Not agreeing doesn't mean I don't know where you are coming from, but coming from a similar intellectual point of view, I think that someone like myself may be able to talk you off the ledge.

 

I came from WoW and not SWG and despite what people may believe about hardcore WoW players, I wasn't hoping to get a WoW clone in space. I was, however, looking for something that had the things that WoW did PlUS more as I now feel MMOs are more of an evolving genre rather than an innovative one.

 

That beng said, there are some things I love about SWTOR and there are some things I wish they would address. I say address because I think it is unfair to expect BioWare to deliver what a 7 year old game has taken its life to develop.

 

I still find myself watching WoW videos and thinking about going back. But I realize now why I feel this way. It's not the game we miss, because there is a reason we wanted something more... It's the memories. tOR has a great foundation to grow and that is the most important part.

 

I think you should take my philosophy of giving this game at least 6 months. I plan to give it that because I feel that is sufficient time to see the direction of the developers and what to expect as far as evolving the title is concerned.

 

After seeing the panel for 1.2, I must say, my predictions and wishes for the game seem to be coming true. They addressed a myriad of issues and the amount of content they are releasing, the bits and pieces they have planned for the future are nothi short of encouraging and evolving.

 

In short, I hear you man but I think we all deserve (including the developers) to give it some time. We waited way too long to not give it a chance to evolve and create the memories that draw us to the genre.

 

/signed, My story as well, I definitely plan on seeing what is 6 months down the road

[Newsinz]

Got to agree with the OP this game sucks cant wait for the next one to be released.

The next one will probably suck too because these games have lost their way .

Well at least we a can all whine on the forums.

 

Did you even read his post!?

[Walkiry]

You appear to be unfamiliar with the concept of a "Business Model". When you run a business, that is, a FOR PROFIT organization, THE ONLY objective IS to make a PROFIT, PERIOD. WoW established a (very) profitable business model. no business trying to break that model will succeed until one surpasses WoW's level of success. That's "the REAL world" for you. Deal with it.

 

With WoW, Blizzard established a very profitable business model... for Blizzard. You mention success and breaking the mold, but let me ask you, how many games have been successful following the WoW model? Truly successful?

 

The answer is... one: WoW.

 

As things stand right now, trying to out-WoW WoW has proven to be a terrible business model. But hey, definition of insanity and all that.

[mauredchai]

I hear what you say, and what I think is that there is a careful balancing between "WoW- like" and "not-like WoW" and you have people becoming disappointed in each ends of this balancing.

 

Thing is, I have lot of friends who are star wars fans just like me, but I was the only one who played SWG.

All these friends however played WoW, and I have a suspicion that the reason all of these friends now play SWTOR is simply because of the similarities of WoW.

Had this been SWG 2.0 i dont think they would still be playing, and I dont think my mates are unique in this aspect.

 

At the same time we have people who are disappointed that SWTOR is not "enough" like WoW in the aspect of not having what they deem "key features" like Looking for Dungeon tool, dps counters and other things that I personally would judge "nice, but not really essential"

 

So there we have it, between the " this game is a WoW-clone, im leaving" and the "we want stuff i have in WoW, ill be back when theyre in" theres the bunch of people who are comforted by the similarities since now they dont have to learn new stuff but can just "translate" into WoW-jargon in their head.

This gives the game a pretty low learning threshold, and while we advanced players who thrive to learn a new system because we have played a dozen or more might find it dull, its a GOOD thing for all those people who are not like us.

 

Better then to start out with "-looks like wow" to pull in the people who are comfortable with that game but no other MMO and then gradually bring in new features based on the communitys needs and wants over time and change it at a rate that dont scare off those accustomed to only WoW-like games

[SNEAKYSIX]

Problem is, game engines aside its very hard to create an MMO that is completely different and innovative.

The concept, leveling, questing, parties, loot, items collecting, skill/spell evolution is what makes a MMO run in its basic form.

Cloning others as some may suggest is always part of this culture, lets borrow from this to keep that market interest and borrow from that to gain interest from that demograph..

How hard it is to be creative and original when the WOW machine has captured most concepts over a long period of time. (ive only just recenlty sampled WOW and its not for me)

 

Sure innovation comes from the community aswell as the devs. There has been some great concepts and suggestions already put forward by this community. Early days and things hopefully will go through the development stage and new concepts will make us delighted or deflated.

 

Ive seen suggestions as:

A free roam world addition after level 50 would be brilliant addition so there is something to keep us interested and create a community.

Removing companions and using your own alts after legacy as our companions.

 

implementation combined with innovation will keep this puppy fed.

 

EDIT:

Also please when you see a post in future that states, The reason Im quitting or bye SWTOR, dont even read it dont comment on it just let it fade off the screen. Imagion the attention seeking pleb looking at his thread having only been read by him, SWEET JUSTICE... In no way am I suggesting this is one of those threads. Just a personal offtopic statement....

Edited March 9, 2012 by SNEAKYSIX

[Mephismo]

Did you even read his post!?

 

Yes wtb the time it took to read it, another nothing new quiting thread.

[Newsinz]

Yes wtb the time it took to read it, another nothing new quiting thread.

 

Obviously you didn't lol. Where did he say he was quitting... I read he is bored and that he guesses he will level up a couple more toons... If your going to try and say you read a post then at least do so.

[MORTTUUM]

With WoW, Blizzard established a very profitable business model... for Blizzard. You mention success and breaking the mold, but let me ask you, how many games have been successful following the WoW model? Truly successful?

 

The answer is... one: WoW.

 

As things stand right now, trying to out-WoW WoW has proven to be a terrible business model. But hey, definition of insanity and all that.

 

Numerous auto-manufacturing companies tried and failed to compete with Henry Ford... until Auto Union (AUDI) succeeded.

 

Numerous computer companies tried, and failed, to compete with IBM... until Apple pulled it off.

 

Other examples include the aicraft industry, wireless communications (radio, not PC), and I'm sure there a lot of others. The key words in your post are "as things stand right now"...

[Walkiry]

Numerous auto-manufacturing companies tried and failed to compete with Henry Ford... until Auto Union (AUDI) succeeded.

 

Numerous computer companies tried, and failed, to compete with IBM... until Apple pulled it off.

 

Other examples include the aicraft industry, wireless communications (radio, not PC), and I'm sure there a lot of others. The key words in your post are "as things stand right now"...

 

Your argument is that everyone sticks with the WoW model because it's profitable. It is profitable for Blizzard, but nobody else. They have an established dominance in the genre like nobody else, in any genre.

 

Your tangents are completely irrelevant. Innovation has also made breakthroughs in established industries, and while we can be here all day exchanging examples, at the end of the day your assertion is still invalid.

 

Gaming has had many breakthroughs thanks to innovation, and in the MMOG arena, post-WoW, nobody has managed to out-WoW WoW, though MANY have tried; so calling it the safe thing to do from the investor point of view goes against both gaming history and current events.

[Dee-Jay]

OP talked a lot without saying much.

 

What he's basically criticizing is the rise and dominance of "themepark" MMOs.

 

 

That's a valid complaint which could have been expressed more directly.

 

As opposed to "sandbox" MMOs, "themepark" MMOs rely on constant content to remain engaging. They are very "consumption" oriented by design because of its large appeal.

 

However with modern, experienced MMO players, even the most experienced and committed studio struggles publishing enough content to keep these players engaged.

 

Where it took WoW over a year before "endgame" really got rolling for many players people now hit max. level within weeks and consume content at an ever fastening pace.

 

Ultimately relying on "themepark" content alone isn't sustainable.

[sDiesel]

wait....ur telling me you didnt know this was WoW2?

sorry, but i knew that from the first 20sec of a trailer for the game ~8mo ago.

 

but it's more like WoW2 made by Blizzard2....the texan amature spinoff co. created after Blizz was nuked by Jawa's.

[MORTTUUM]

Your argument is that everyone sticks with the WoW model because it's profitable. It is profitable for Blizzard, but nobody else.

 

Your first sentence is exactly right. For the second; so far, only time will

 

...in the MMOG arena, post-WoW, nobody has managed to out-WoW WoW, though MANY have tried; so calling it the safe thing to do from the investor point of view goes against both gaming history and current events.

 

How many of the other "many" that have tried did so with a built-in fan base to start with??

[scootshoot]

This game is far from a wow clone. For one, WOW's popularity starts with user mods, think Skyrim, Fallout 3 etc. without mods at the Nexus, these games would be a shell of itself.

 

Some of the most amazing player made WOW mods are stuff like, Mapster, Atlasloot, Gearscore, Grid, Healbot, Titanbar, Auctioneer, CTBar mod, Bartender, Gathermate, Range Display, Recount etc etc. Too many must have mods to list.

Edited March 9, 2012 by scootshoot

[Walkiry]

Your first sentence is exactly right.

 

It's exactly right in the sense that it's what you're saying, not that what you're saying is correct, as I've already explained.