Charliff Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Cookie cutter builds.... So lets say you play a BH, and you have a choice between 2 talents that improve your unload ability, one slows the target for X% for Y seconds, and theres another talent that improves the damage it does by Z%, which one would you pick? (keep in mind this is for a raiding spec) cookie cutter is just a bad name for COMMON SENSE. Both specs should be good enough to do anything in the game be it soloing, be it raiding. If that's not possible Bioware did something wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiddyy Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Both specs should be good enough to do anything in the game be it soloing, be it raiding. If that's not possible Bioware did something wrong with it. That's absurd. Taking talents for no apparent reason that do nothing to better your dps should not be viable, and shouldn't be taken. Specs that up DPS should be the standard, and anything else should not be viable. Saying otherwise is ridiculous. Taking a talent that slows a target over something that increases damage should not be viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliff Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Those "newbs" don't have a right to see the operations, Bioware says they have a right to see the operations. It's not anyone's right to shut someone out of content besides Bioware. This is the attitude that makes people say no to the elitists who think they can decide how the game should be played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiddyy Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) No to combat logs. but, from what I've read that most of the people who say no think it will make the game easier, in a way yes it will, but the people who do want the combat logs are hoping that the game designers will make adjustments to the difficulty of OPS to make them harder. Im a solo player so i'll never get into an OPS but from what I can see and have read they have to be pretty easy, and as people get more geared, they will be even easier. the logs will give info to make adjustments to the game so its somewhat of a challenge. whats the fun in it if you can blow right through an ops in your first few attempts. To me the game would get boring. I say no only because of how people act in WOW and treat other people who do poorly. I've seen it, and even people who do want the logs have seen people get mistreated because of them. you cannot guarantee that this behavior will not happen here. even if it happens only once thats 1 too many. Why are you posting then? Why? What relevance do you have here?! Edited March 13, 2012 by Fiddyy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliff Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 That's absurd. Taking talents for no apparent reason that do nothing to better your dps should not be viable, and shouldn't be taken. Specs that up DPS should be the standard, and anything else should not be viable. Saying otherwise is ridiculous. Taking a talent that slows a target over something that increases damage should not be viable. Nothing absurt when the creators of the game give people a choice in what to choose. If it's absurd you should request Bioware to remove the talents you think are useless and should not be allowed to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliff Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Why are you posting then? Why? What relevance do you have here?! He has brought relevance in that post: I say no only because of how people act in WOW and treat other people who do poorly. I've seen it, and even people who do want the logs have seen people get mistreated because of them. you cannot guarantee that this behavior will not happen here. even if it happens only once thats 1 too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiddyy Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Nothing absurt when the creators of the game give people a choice in what to choose. If it's absurd you should request Bioware to remove the talents you think are useless and should not be allowed to choose. I'm not saying they're useless, but in a raiding setting you have the talents that give you the most DPS output. Are you going to argue against that? I'm sorry but if bosses are that easy where people who don't maximize can kill them, then something needs to change in the difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiddyy Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 He has brought relevance in that post: No, not at all. Sorry, but if you don't partake in the thing this whole post is about, then you honestly should not voice your opinion. Secondly, that is NOT AN ARGUMENT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seferex Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I vote yes... I just want to see if i'm a crap with my guardian dps or not xD Even if its a private log Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatPhish Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Why are you posting then? Why? What relevance do you have here?! lol ok. I can feel the anger from you, can only imagine the anger when you run into a "bad player" Edited March 13, 2012 by KatPhish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I am still overcome with amazement that such an important gameplay feature (intrinsic to virtually every modern MMO) was withheld SOLELY because a tiny minority of Bad Players convinced Bioware that Evil Elitists might be able to parse it into an Evil Damage Meter that would somehow 'discriminate' against players. I mean seriously, it's like a Penny Arcade strip. Link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I'm not saying they're useless, but in a raiding setting you have the talents that give you the most DPS output. Are you going to argue against that? I'm sorry but if bosses are that easy where people who don't maximize can kill them, then something needs to change in the difficulty. Yes, I will argue that. The game should be set up so that everyone does not have to spend every talent point exactly the same way in order to defeat bosses. Why in the world would you want a game that requires each class to have identical builds in order to be successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englefield Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) The game is made easier. Please provide a link to a legit achievement in another MMO, some kill of some end tier boss that came at a reasonable time, (When the tier was current) If people ask me, I can and will provide multiple evidences backing my background, people claiming that the game is easier should have to prove they have raided at the top level to have any valid argument for those of us discussing the top level of raiding. Imagine the hardest boss you ever faced in WoW. Think abbout how many times you wiped on it and how Recount/combat logs helped you find out what killed you, what caused most damage in a raid, who was slacking, who wasn't healing and how you had to adjust to all those variables. Now imagine doing an equally hard boss without recount or a combat log. Which of those encounters was harder? Rhetorical question, we all know the answer. The other one must therefore be easier. It doesn't matter how you chose to spin it, combat logs makes overcoming these tough encounters easier and no one needs to have raided at the top level to understand this very basic concept. Edited March 13, 2012 by Englefield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevonn Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) yawn, this again... How many times i saw in MMO tools like combat logs, dps meters and other **** used wrongly by players. So a new guy joined a group hits first mobs, some look dps right away to see if they are on top and who is at bottom of the list....than starts the rant omg XXXXX is doing only XXXXDPS kick him he is newb... Its soo rare for me to see when thos "elite" gives advice to newb in a group how to do better, nah its faster to kick and replace or tell them go google it. Edited March 13, 2012 by Sevonn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trueski Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 i vote yes for combat logs. i, for one, would like to see both my own and my group's dps to help gauge performance. Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Bioware says they have a right to see the operations. It's not anyone's right to shut someone out of content besides Bioware. This is the attitude that makes people say no to the elitists who think they can decide how the game should be played. Source? This isn't Blizzard, this isn't WoW. Sure, there's normal modes, and it's pretty obvious that those were meant to be pugged and therefore seen by the majority of the playerbase. However, even normal modes have enrage timers (in some cases, like Fabricator, rather tight ones), so they are just as obviously not intended to just be cheesed through. Carrying dead weight in the raid is a recipe for failure. It's this attitude that irks me. I am not required to carry you through raids. I pay the same amount per month to play this game as you. Why, just because I've actually done the work, put in the effort to better myself, should I then be required to expend even more effort, the very effort that you refuse to put in yourself, just so that you can see content that your character is not capable of meaningfully contributing to without someone like me doing your job for you? Talk about a sense of entitlement... Edited March 13, 2012 by Daellia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galius Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The private logs will give all the information true hardcore raiders will need. They are the only ones that need that information. Since they will already be getting that information there is no need to expand who gets it and therefore be used in ways that are detrimental to the game. Sorry to repeat myself but it seems many pro-meter and pro-public log people are not understanding this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The private logs will give all the information true hardcore raiders will need. They are the only ones that need that information. Since they will already be getting that information there is no need to expand who gets it and therefore be used in ways that are detrimental to the game. Sorry to repeat myself but it seems many pro-meter and pro-public log people are not understanding this. No they understand stand it. They just can't accept it. Not having the ability to immediately judge someone else is why this thread continues. Not cause they can't see what there doing and judge themselves in the current meters were getting. They have to judge others even when it doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) No they understand stand it. They just can't accept it. Not having the ability to immediately judge someone else is why this thread continues. Not cause they can't see what there doing and judge themselves in the current meters were getting. They have to judge others even when it doesn't matter.↑ ↑ ↑ Yup ... yup ... yup ... this ... ↑ ↑ ↑ Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genesiser Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 If people took a little pride in their character then this discussion wouldn't even come up because taking pride = playing better. If you play better then you don't see people making snide remarks about your low dps/bad performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 If people took a little pride in their character then this discussion wouldn't even come up because taking pride = playing better. If you play better then you don't see people making snide remarks about your low dps/bad performance. Wait - You play a video game and in some way you gain some personal pride out of it? No wonder that was one of the seven deadly sins Shazam warned me about. If so, you really need to get out and do something more constructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 If people took a little pride in their character then this discussion wouldn't even come up because taking pride = playing better. If you play better then you don't see people making snide remarks about your low dps/bad performance. For some people, this is a relaxing hobby not a competition. There is no reason to be snide or rude if someone is not "up to speed". I am not saying you have to keep them in your group/raid but there are various ways to handle it when this comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I am still overcome with amazement that such an important gameplay feature (intrinsic to virtually every modern MMO) was withheld SOLELY because a tiny minority of Bad Players convinced Bioware that Evil Elitists might be able to parse it into an Evil Damage Meter that would somehow 'discriminate' against players. I mean seriously, it's like a Penny Arcade strip. I agree, those strips and your summary of the opposing view are both fiction. The people not wanting to share their performance, the people not wanting their play disrupted by arguments over whose performance if lagging and those who just don't want to focus on the metrics outnumber those who feel they need such metrics provided easily, in realtime and without consent. Compare those players against further expansion of the proposed combat logging system to SWTOR's likely target audience and it becomes even clearer how a minority demand for convenience counter to the game's thrust makes sense to passover. Full-on by-the-numbers gamers looking to chew through the content quickly aren't really the core of who BioWare is trying to court with this game. The proposed combat logging provides that outlying group some of the functionality they crave and allows a more number based experience (if the effort is put to it by those desiring it) without, SWTOR needing to re-direct it's main focus of the play experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidence Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Bottom Line Summary of my Posts: 1. Advocates against Logs have 0 sound and reasonable argument against them. The whole basis is, "People's performance isn't the rest of the groups business." Why would someone in a raid, be allowed to be carried? Please answer this. 2. The game is made easier. Please provide a link to a legit achievement in another MMO, some kill of some end tier boss that came at a reasonable time, (When the tier was current) If people ask me, I can and will provide multiple evidences backing my background, people claiming that the game is easier should have to prove they have raided at the top level to have any valid argument for those of us discussing the top level of raiding. 1. Why because you say so? They have had plenty of good arugments against public logs, you just dont like them.... And it IS thAat simple. 2. I dont agree it makes the game easier, but I will say it does open up people to act like tools. And tbh, bragging about being a super hardcore raider is a lie. Why? Because any REAL HARDCORE raider doesnt care about some pug's dps. Real hardcore raiding guilds have members who will turn in the parse so that they can see what happen. They are not worried about some pugers dps in a HM FP like you are. 3. YOU are the type of player that makes most of us that dont want dps meters in game not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 lol ok. I can feel the anger from you, can only imagine the anger when you run into a "bad player" I think the moderation of overheated posts in this thread speaks volumes about how BioWare expects it's players to treat one another. It makes total sense why they will introduce combat logs in a form that will be more difficult to abuse other players with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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