fungihoujo Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Only if everyone doesn't supply their logs from a guild run. This- the way they're doing it gives guilds all the ability to look at everyone's data by making it mandatory for ops runners to share- while everyone else does not have to participate, while also having the tools there to improve. It's a win-win situation for everyone except for that nosy person who just wants to judge and insult people during meaningless pug runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 You can all stop posting in this thread now. James Ohlen: Yes. We’re going to be able to get logs from your combat and you’ll be able to take that information and look at how your group did in a given combat. Right now, there are two schools of thought on it. One group of players don’t want the combat log because it can be exclusionary and it makes it that there’s all this pressure to perform a certain way. There are groups who think that’s the way it’s supposed to be, who want to be the super-elite group. So we made it that if you want to be the super-elite group, it takes a little bit more work. It’s not so easy to be exclusionary. You have to take that extra step to basically parse it out and look at it. You can get the information you need, but it’s something that we’re not making easy to use. It’s kind of a compromise. There’ll be guilds that’ll make use of it and I’m sure that there’ll be guilds that don’t. Ten Ton Hammer: So you are able to see other people’s combat actions if you go out of game and parse the logs? James Ohlen: Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) This- the way they're doing it gives guilds all the ability to look at everyone's data by making it mandatory for ops runners to share- while everyone else does not have to participate, while also having the tools there to improve. It's a win-win situation for everyone except for that nosy person who just wants to judge and insult people during meaningless pug runs. BINGO ^ But your logic will not carry much weight here on an argument so closely tied to personal wants in a generation filled with people that think their wronged when they do not get all they want right now. Edited March 13, 2012 by Quraswren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) my last post was on page 93. 10 pages on, still waiting on my logical argument against combat metrics. Edited March 13, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englefield Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 ... The people who are against combat logs, are probably against it because they don't want to be criticized for the way they play their class, which is kind of a load of crap... Congrats to you on making a daft point and debunking it in the same sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 You can all stop posting in this thread now.Dude ... love ya like a brother but the people keeping this thread alive don't want to hear any of that. Actually, not sure they want anything at all except for pwnership of ... something. Doubt even they know what that something is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 my last post was on page 93. 10 pages on, still waiting on my logical argument against combat metrics. We're still waiting for you to take the time and go read them in the last 93 pages. If you can't put forth that effort then I see no reason to put in any effort for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 ummm, yeah it did. "yes of course they could make a boss unbeatable etc, but thats the point im making, it needs to be just right. not easy but requires concentration. how can i make the 10+ dps in my raid do this without seeing what they are doing? " that is pretty much about making content harder after knowing what people can do. can we actually argue the point rather than symantics? that would be great Someone stated that we (the players) need logs so developers could make harder content. That is 100% wrong. They can DO THAT whether they give us the logs or not, was my point. You are now arguing how can a group of players overcome content. It has been stated many times, yes, logs make it easier for players to beat content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I'm for combat logs and I agree with lollermittens. The people who are against combat logs, are probably against it because they don't want to be criticized for the way they play their class, which is kind of a load of crap. This is an MMO, and a lot of content involves each player interacting with others, and all players should do their best to make it as enjoyable of an engagement as possible. That being said, if you are under performing, you are taking fun away from others. There is no other way to look at it, if you want to do ops, you need to be playing on par or better than everyone else, especially if you intend on doing the new hard and nightmare modes, there is absolutely no reason to not have a combat log. Again, the point that "story mode" has been put into the game is enough for those against combat logs. If story mode is going to become easier than current normal modes, then you don't have to worry about it, and can run the new op once a week to enjoy the story and get a little gear, that's fine. The rest of us though, would like to be able to identify when op members mess up, or under perform, so that we may help them, or boot them from the group. While the latter option is my least favorite, it all comes down to the fact that if you suck, you suck and shouldn't be ruining the fun of others, that is what story mode is for. I like BioWare's approach to making this into a casually approachable game, but if there is going to be content for more serious players, then they need to supplement us with the tools, or allow us to make our own (addons) and let us require our guild members to use it if they want to run ops. Also, I realize that the upcoming combat log will be implemented for us to see how we our doing, but do you think it will really stop guilds or pug groups from booting people because they under perform? Honestly I won't be surprised if guild's require you to alt+tab or log out of the game to view your combat logs for a wipe attempt, and then kick you if you are performing terribly, so why impede us? How much of the group content is contained in OPS? Not very much. More of the instanced group content is in FPs, a majority of which are not going to need the kind of coordination OPS content is going to need. To clear the vast majority of content there simply isn't a need for comprehensive logs of everything that happens to/by everyone within range. The argument for comprehensive, tell-all logs hinges on them being needed in, maybe, 5% of the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 my last post was on page 93. 10 pages on, still waiting on my logical argument against combat metrics. It's moot now. You can all stop posting in this thread now. James Ohlen: Yes. We’re going to be able to get logs from your combat and you’ll be able to take that information and look at how your group did in a given combat. Right now, there are two schools of thought on it. One group of players don’t want the combat log because it can be exclusionary and it makes it that there’s all this pressure to perform a certain way. There are groups who think that’s the way it’s supposed to be, who want to be the super-elite group. So we made it that if you want to be the super-elite group, it takes a little bit more work. It’s not so easy to be exclusionary. You have to take that extra step to basically parse it out and look at it. You can get the information you need, but it’s something that we’re not making easy to use. It’s kind of a compromise. There’ll be guilds that’ll make use of it and I’m sure that there’ll be guilds that don’t. Ten Ton Hammer: So you are able to see other people’s combat actions if you go out of game and parse the logs? James Ohlen: Yes. Where I am losing everyone? It's over. Move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) my last post was on page 93. 10 pages on, still waiting on my logical argument against combat metrics.The only logical argument you will accept is the one that agrees with you. So here it is - I agree with you. No idea what you want or why you want it ... but I agree with you. Anyone else care to agree so community peace can be kept? Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 We're still waiting for you to take the time and go read them in the last 93 pages. If you can't put forth that effort then I see no reason to put in any effort for you. dude. i. have. read. everything. I am going to go vomit up my dignity now for saying that. If i am understanding correctly (which i clearly am not) Combat logs will lead to damage floors - aka - "LF2M +2k dps only" and scrutiny against those who are "not pulling their weight." Both of those are claims are baseless assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akash Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) If they're giving us downloadable logs, why not take the next step and give us UI overlaid real-time meters? If you want to opt out of having your data included, you can have that option. Groups or guilds can decide whether or not they want to allow someone to go who won't share, and if you're against it, then you can decide not to run with folks that want you to share? Everybody wins! Edited March 13, 2012 by Akash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) It's moot now. You can all stop posting in this thread now. Where I am losing everyone? It's over. Move along. Not really, since a certain faction will now want that info live. But at least we can put to rest having to have guildies combine logs of raids. It will be in one out of game log. Edited March 13, 2012 by Drewser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) It's moot now. You can all stop posting in this thread now. Where I am losing everyone? It's over. Move along. i disagree with Bioware, because its a compromise with people that wont even use combat logs in the first place. Edited March 13, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) i disagree with Bioware, because its a compromise for people that wont even use combat logs in the first place.Too bad it's their game. Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 If i am understanding correctly (which i clearly am not) Combat logs will lead to damage floors - aka - "LF2M +2k dps only" and scrutiny against those who are "not pulling their weight." Both of those are claims are baseless assumptions. No, they're predictions based on how this stuff always goes in MMORPGs. Players do this stuff all the time. If you give them the ability to do so here, they will. Still too assumptive for you? Fine. Given the tools, I'd do this myself. I'd want to know what a mean DPS rating for a hard mode should be, then recruit around it. I can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I'm for combat logs and I agree with lollermittens. The people who are against combat logs, are probably against it because they don't want to be criticized for the way they play their class, which is kind of a load of crap. This is an MMO, and a lot of content involves each player interacting with others, and all players should do their best to make it as enjoyable of an engagement as possible. That being said, if you are under performing, you are taking fun away from others. There is no other way to look at it, if you want to do ops, you need to be playing on par or better than everyone else, especially if you intend on doing the new hard and nightmare modes, there is absolutely no reason to not have a combat log. Again, the point that "story mode" has been put into the game is enough for those against combat logs. If story mode is going to become easier than current normal modes, then you don't have to worry about it, and can run the new op once a week to enjoy the story and get a little gear, that's fine. The rest of us though, would like to be able to identify when op members mess up, or under perform, so that we may help them, or boot them from the group. While the latter option is my least favorite, it all comes down to the fact that if you suck, you suck and shouldn't be ruining the fun of others, that is what story mode is for. I like BioWare's approach to making this into a casually approachable game, but if there is going to be content for more serious players, then they need to supplement us with the tools, or allow us to make our own (addons) and let us require our guild members to use it if they want to run ops. Also, I realize that the upcoming combat log will be implemented for us to see how we our doing, but do you think it will really stop guilds or pug groups from booting people because they under perform? Honestly I won't be surprised if guild's require you to alt+tab or log out of the game to view your combat logs for a wipe attempt, and then kick you if you are performing terribly, so why impede us? Some guilds may require it but contary to what you post implies not all guilds will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 i disagree with Bioware, because its a compromise with people that wont even use combat logs in the first place. You must not have understood it. Your combat log, parseable outside of the game, will show everyone's actions in your raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Ya ... too bad it's their game. and it's too bad they aint getting anymore of my money. It's their game, but theyre taking it in a direction that will accomidate casuals, who will leave after they hit 50 (if they get that far), while ignoring the hardcore players, who stay well after lvl 50 for more indepth, end game content. by ignoring hardcore players you do a disservice to the game and the game's community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 You must not have understood it. Your combat log, parseable outside of the game, will show everyone's actions in your raid. cuz that's why i play star wars to spend time outside of the game. Give me full recount in my UI!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 and it's too bad they aint getting anymore of my money. It's their game, but theyre taking it in a direction that will accomidate casuals, who will leave after they hit 50 (if they get that far), while ignoring the hardcore players, who stay well after lvl 50 for more indepth, end game content. by ignoring hardcore players you do a disservice to the game and the game's community. The hardcore has been dead since the Burning Crusade. There's not enough money in it and no one cares about you. Where have you been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freor Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 You can all stop posting in this thread now. Damn, thats great news. Pretty nice compromise if you ask me. Way too difficult to keep following during combat and brag with it (as some have feared) but still lets others to see what went wrong after wipe (and you can see how you did compared to rest after raid ends). Thumbs up for bw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 No, they're predictions based on how this stuff always goes in MMORPGs. Players do this stuff all the time. If you give them the ability to do so here, they will. Still too assumptive for you? Fine. Given the tools, I'd do this myself. I'd want to know what a mean DPS rating for a hard mode should be, then recruit around it. I can't wait. Baseless claims. DPS meters dont hurt people. people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) cuz that's why i play star wars to spend time outside of the game. Give me full recount in my UI!! So you can spam it? No thanks. This is the tool we need to do the thing we claim to what to do, right? Analyze performance. You want to wave your e-peen. If you didn't, the above logging would be enough, so don't even bother denying it. Edited March 13, 2012 by JustTed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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