Englefield Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Exactly. Bad players are bitterly opposed to Damage-meters because they want to be able to leech of other people without having to contribute in the process. For everyone else, it's a valuable tool Don't fool yourself into thinking this is about good players v bad. That's just looks like a tactic used by internet personalities to put themselves up on a pedestal. If you really think you need them for the content that is currently available perhaps you aren't as great as you think you are? You want it harder? Then do it without tools that hold your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonsglory Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Don't fool yourself into thinking this is about good players v bad. That's just looks like a tactic used by internet personalities to put themselves up on a pedestal. If you really think you need them for the content that is currently available perhaps you aren't as great as you think you are? You want it harder? Then do it without tools that hold your hand. I realises that no matter how logical and well written a post is - some people just dont understand... Or refuse to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englefield Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) I realises that no matter how logical and well written a post is - some people just dont understand... Or refuse to. True. Now try writing a logical and well written post. Those that resort to "Anyone who disagrees with me must be a bad player" is neither. Edited March 12, 2012 by Englefield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog_nz Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Don't fool yourself into thinking this is about good players v bad. That's just looks like a tactic used by internet personalities to put themselves up on a pedestal. If you really think you need them for the content that is currently available perhaps you aren't as great as you think you are? You want it harder? Then do it without tools that hold your hand. No, it's about NORMAL players who are willing to learn and Bad Players who want free purples from leeching off other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiddex Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Exactly. Bad players are bitterly opposed to Damage-meters because they want to be able to leech of other people without having to contribute in the process. For everyone else, it's a valuable tool yup, and only rapists and murderers are against death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TapSumBatt Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Yes, let's increase the whine. Go vote yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freor Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Don't fool yourself into thinking this is about good players v bad. If you really think you need them for the content that is currently available perhaps you aren't as great as you think you are? What? How exactly is "needing" other people for multiplayer content reason to not allow dmg meters? I want to group with others, but expect them to do their part just as I do mine. Combat log would allow us to see/verify this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TapSumBatt Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) What? How exactly is "needing" other people for multiplayer content reason to not allow dmg meters? I want to group with others, but expect them to do their part just as I do mine. Combat log would allow us to see/verify this. And at this stage only provide a massive chunk of data for the whine fire, what do you expect? Chances are that they are already monitoring this and will release it when it looks better. Edited March 12, 2012 by TapSumBatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiddex Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 You should read 1984. It is a book about "valuable tools" that help society to - objectively - measure if people "contribute" and "do their job" as they are supposed to. No, it is not spying on people. It is just... the obligation to be evaluated. You contribute? Then you have nothing to fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englefield Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 What? How exactly is "needing" other people for multiplayer content reason to not allow dmg meters? I want to group with others, but expect them to do their part just as I do mine. Combat log would allow us to see/verify this. Arguing against a point the other person hasn't made is the almost very definition of a strawman argument I haven't said you don't need other people. I said, due to the difficulty level of the current content, you (for now at least) don't need a full combat log. IMHO what we're being given is good enough for the individual to improve his own performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freor Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Arguing against a point the other person hasn't made is the almost very definition of a strawman argument I haven't said you don't need other people. I said, due to the difficulty level of the current content, you (for now at least) don't need a full combat log. IMHO what we're being given is good enough for the individual to improve his own performance. Ah I see. While I agree the current difficulty at endgame isn't that challenging, I've still been in some HM FP groups where the team has struggled to beat the enrage timer on some bosses. This could be due to myself not doing enough dps. Or someone else in the group. Without being able to compare, there is no way to know. Lol @ Orwell comparisons. Guess people just come from different games/backrounds. It still escapes me how allowing other group members to verify you're doing your part is so bad, specially if you aren't slacking. Wonder if people even know you can inspect others equipment? Would think that would have ignited another storm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddhalux Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I wish it was more like Starship Troopers than 1984. At least then the only people who matter and can vote are those that enlisted and thru self sacrafice can be called citizens. Unlike the remainder that serves only themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Yes, because without a combat log, no matter how good your assumptions are... They are still that, assumptions. Without raw data nothing is factual. While raiders have a valid point, your post is a joke. Simply looking at the other DPS's gear and asking them their rotation and/or observing them during the battle, should give you your answer in a 4 man group that is hitting enrage timers. BTW, the logs Bioware is implementing will solve this if you really can't figure it out without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 You should read 1984. It is a book about "valuable tools" that help society to - objectively - measure if people "contribute" and "do their job" as they are supposed to. No, it is not spying on people. It is just... the obligation to be evaluated. You contribute? Then you have nothing to fear. what? you should probably re-read 1984, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jederix Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 People interested in masking their performance or not interested in bettering their own play can choose to play with like-minded individuals. People interested in using a DPS measuring tool to show how "leet" they are and use it to brow beat anyone not as "leet" as themselves may also play with like minded individuals. Then you can all bash each other to your heart's content. The logs we are getting are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashu-ri Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The only combat log I need is a personal one. I want to know how big of a hit I took when I died, or how much I healed for when someone else died. And I don't need a combat log that stretches back forever, either. Works well enough in LOTRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnathis Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I've used logs to better my play and analyze my rotation to see where I could make improvements. As a result I rank top 30 in the world on most WoW heroic fights for my class. They ARE used as tools. I've never used them as a reference to tell someone they're bad. I've never belittled someone for sucking on the meter because I know that the meter isn't everything and ultimately the success of the group is what matters. In fact, when I pug a 5-man I'm usually the guy voting "No" when the rest of the group tries to kick someone. If I feel we can complete the run in a reasonable amount of time I have no problem with someone being a little low on the meter. On progression fights my guild in WoW, which is top 50 US 25 man (I say that so you realize that we're probably elitests by your standards), could care less where someones overall damage is. Most often we use it to look at specific target damage to see if people are switching to the correct targets quickly enough. We're all good people and I've never seen one of us belittle anyone outside the guild. We sometimes get on eachothers case if one of us is having an off night but that's the extent of it. Usually the real uppity "elitests" come to our guild thinking they're gods gift and eventually leave because they can't hang or because we make them feel unwelcome. We try to keep a really friendly, casual but serious when necessary atmosphere and anyone that disrupts that atmosphere by being a jerk usually weeds themselves out. The only time I've used a meter as a measuring stick is when the group isn't meeting an enrage timer consistently, an add isn't dying fast enough or a particular segment of the fight is consistently not getting healed through. But again, that's amongst my guildmates and we're all aware of the fact that meters will be used as a tool to help us progress. Ultimately it comes down to the individual player. There are d-bags everywhere and they will be d-bags regardless of whether or not there's meters. They're the people that taunt lesser geared/skilled people in warzones over general chat or criticize someone in a flashpoint for doing something wrong on a mechanic. You know who they are, they're already here, meters won't bring more of them. If the personal log works in a group setting when you want it to then I'm perfectly fine with that. If it's something where the members of the group have to enable it in order for other people to see it then that works for me. I can run with people that want to use it and have nothing to hide. Ideally they should just make it so that only guild groups have it shown and even then it can be toggled on/off and that would suffice. For those people that don't want them or don't care what they say then you can just find a guild that thinks like you do. For the other group that wants them you find players to run with that suit your playstyle. The group that wants them seems to want them because: A) They enjoy being able to break everything down and max their numbers (there IS a certain gratification that comes with seeing the numbers go up after making some adjustments) OR B) They want tougher more complex nightmare modes and without logs available to players BW can't really make fights that are very tightly tuned. (I myself am in this camp) Neither of these reasons are inherently negative, if anything they're positive mindsets. Player "A" enjoys bettering himself and learning the ins and outs of his class and Player "B" wants more of a challenge from this game because let's face it, nightmare mode has nothing nightmarish about it. The problem is that the game encompasses a wide spectrum of personalities and age groups. Unfortunately some of the younger or just immature for their age players will look for any excuse to start an argument especially behind the veil of anonymity a game like this provides. However, I think it's unfair to blame the meter for their behavior and relieve them of all responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately, despite them being the numerical minority they can have a large impact on other players game experience since there's nothing to stop them from harassing a player in group or general chat non stop. With meters implemented WoW was able to reach their peak subscriber numbers and the community there didn't go to crap like some people on here claim it did. The player base is somewhat divided into sections though, with players of similar skill level and interests usually grouping with each other. I really don't think this is avoidable though, with or without meters and I don't even look at it as a negative. The lesser skilled players are happy going on their merry way and playing with other like minded players and the hardcore players eventually find the right guild for them and are free to beat their heads against the heroic mode bosses. The key is that there needs to be enough content for both to enjoy. Right now in TOR, there seems to be enough content for the casuals to enjoy but not enough for the players looking for a real challenge out of operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I've used logs to better my play and analyze my rotation to see where I could make improvements. As a result I rank top 30 in the world on most WoW heroic fights for my class. They ARE used as tools. I've never used them as a reference to tell someone they're bad. I've never belittled someone for sucking on the meter because I know that the meter isn't everything and ultimately the success of the group is what matters. In fact, when I pug a 5-man I'm usually the guy voting "No" when the rest of the group tries to kick someone. If I feel we can complete the run in a reasonable amount of time I have no problem with someone being a little low on the meter. On progression fights my guild in WoW, which is top 50 US 25 man (I say that so you realize that we're probably elitests by your standards), could care less where someones overall damage is. Most often we use it to look at specific target damage to see if people are switching to the correct targets quickly enough. We're all good people and I've never seen one of us belittle anyone outside the guild. We sometimes get on eachothers case if one of us is having an off night but that's the extent of it. Usually the real uppity "elitests" come to our guild thinking they're gods gift and eventually leave because they can't hang or because we make them feel unwelcome. We try to keep a really friendly, casual but serious when necessary atmosphere and anyone that disrupts that atmosphere by being a jerk usually weeds themselves out. The only time I've used a meter as a measuring stick is when the group isn't meeting an enrage timer consistently, an add isn't dying fast enough or a particular segment of the fight is consistently not getting healed through. But again, that's amongst my guildmates and we're all aware of the fact that meters will be used as a tool to help us progress. Ultimately it comes down to the individual player. There are d-bags everywhere and they will be d-bags regardless of whether or not there's meters. They're the people that taunt lesser geared/skilled people in warzones over general chat or criticize someone in a flashpoint for doing something wrong on a mechanic. You know who they are, they're already here, meters won't bring more of them. If the personal log works in a group setting when you want it to then I'm perfectly fine with that. If it's something where the members of the group have to enable it in order for other people to see it then that works for me. I can run with people that want to use it and have nothing to hide. Ideally they should just make it so that only guild groups have it shown and even then it can be toggled on/off and that would suffice. For those people that don't want them or don't care what they say then you can just find a guild that thinks like you do. For the other group that wants them you find players to run with that suit your playstyle. The group that wants them seems to want them because: A) They enjoy being able to break everything down and max their numbers (there IS a certain gratification that comes with seeing the numbers go up after making some adjustments) OR B) They want tougher more complex nightmare modes and without logs available to players BW can't really make fights that are very tightly tuned. (I myself am in this camp) Neither of these reasons are inherently negative, if anything they're positive mindsets. Player "A" enjoys bettering himself and learning the ins and outs of his class and Player "B" wants more of a challenge from this game because let's face it, nightmare mode has nothing nightmarish about it. The problem is that the game encompasses a wide spectrum of personalities and age groups. Unfortunately some of the younger or just immature for their age players will look for any excuse to start an argument especially behind the veil of anonymity a game like this provides. However, I think it's unfair to blame the meter for their behavior and relieve them of all responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately, despite them being the numerical minority they can have a large impact on other players game experience since there's nothing to stop them from harassing a player in group or general chat non stop. With meters implemented WoW was able to reach their peak subscriber numbers and the community there didn't go to crap like some people on here claim it did. The player base is somewhat divided into sections though, with players of similar skill level and interests usually grouping with each other. I really don't think this is avoidable though, with or without meters and I don't even look at it as a negative. The lesser skilled players are happy going on their merry way and playing with other like minded players and the hardcore players eventually find the right guild for them and are free to beat their heads against the heroic mode bosses. The key is that there needs to be enough content for both to enjoy. Right now in TOR, there seems to be enough content for the casuals to enjoy but not enough for the players looking for a real challenge out of operations. Hey! Good post! Unfortunately, for that very reason, it will likely be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freor Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I've never felt the need to post the logs either, or use them as bragging rights. All I want to do is see that I'm doing as i should (not lacking far behind others as dps), and the others in my group/ops are doing their part as well (again, some dps not doing like 1/3 of the dmg the others do). If expecting others to do their part - and being able to verify that - is seen as immature/elitist/whatever, I do have to wonder how these people usually play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterData Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 what? you should probably re-read 1984, lol. You're a thought criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 You're a thought criminal. haha sure seems that way, the way pro-combat log people are being vilified. I obviously dont want metrics for personal use, i just want to make fun of everyone else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsiLAN Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 No. This is about playing a game, not about doing maths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterData Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 haha sure seems that way, the way pro-combat log people are being vilified. I obviously dont want metrics for personal use, i just want to make fun of everyone else! You have to understand, a lot of these folks were lackluster WoW players. They don't want to be judged in this game the same way they were there. Using your mouse to click abilities and not standing in things is a lot for a person to keep track of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 You have to understand, a lot of these folks were lackluster WoW players. They don't want to be judged in this game the same way they were there. Using your mouse to click abilities and not standing in things is a lot for a person to keep track of. Haha, i played WoW for 5 years and i still dont understand where they get this stuff. People hated on me for my gearscore, but i would still output some serious dps and i had the dps meters to prove it. Judgmental people are going to judge you. Personally, i haven't met anyone like this in star wars. apart from the forums, everyone has been really nice. I don't really see the community suddenly devolving because of some silly combat data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 No. This is about playing a game, not about doing maths. Some of us get enjoyment out of both. Who's to say your way is qualitatively superior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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