PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Matte_Black]

Not so... most of the people arguing in favor of having full open combat logs are fine with having the ability to opt out, and having that be the default.

 

Psst, that is having your playstyle as the default.

[Drewser]

We can see that a minority of the people who are on the forums are in agreement, an even smaller minority are for it, and the majority hasn't weighed in on it.

 

The never will. But we do know based on the people that have voted the smallest minority is those that want the full logs.

[ferroz]

my statistics professor would say, that with 177 votes the probability that the non-voters have a significantly different opinion is pretty close to zero.

I suspect he's probably not a very good statistics professor if he thinks that a sample that small with that many different selection biases means that the chances of the non-voters having a different opinion is close to 0.

 

Unless he means something wildly different by "close to 0" than mathematicians do in general.

[Quraswren]

We can see that a minority of the people who are on the forums are in agreement, an even smaller minority are for it, and the majority hasn't weighed in on it.

 

Thats cause the ones that don't come to the forums are having to much fun to come here and combat logs mean even less to them if they thought about it at all.

 

It's clearly a tool they don't need to play or are so unaware of it they still don't care.

 

My statement still stands.

[ferroz]

Psst, that is having your playstyle as the default.

No, the "pro-full combat log" playstyle by default would be full, open logs on by default. If your information is private by default, that's your playstyle by default.

[Dayln]

Eek, I forgot about how much more nerf-crying we'll see as those performance numbers become available.

 

 

You can never ever be a good chess player by having a computer make all your choices for you, same with MMO's

 

The worst thing that can happen is that everyone becomes a clone, does this and that, in a particular order, that everyone becomes exactly the same, which is what these player crutches foster.

 

and you end up with people thinking of themselves as master of a class, when they don’t have an actual clue, they only do what the program tells them to do

 

we don’t call them chess masters if a program is telling them the exact next move to make, and we certainly don’t call them masters in an MMO either.

[ferroz]

Thats cause the ones that don't come to the forums are having to much fun to come here and combat logs mean even less to them if they thought about it at all.

No, that's a bad assumption. There are a lot of people who have opinions on things that are discussed on the forums but never get involved with the forums; in general, an MMO will see something like 5% of it's player base on the forums (sorry, can't source that, just remember reading it somewhere).

 

For example: None of my guild mates or friends post on the forums... they would all like full combat logs.

[Mineria]

Recount is pretty precise;

 

since addons are kind of out of scope for this discussion, I'll save my comments on them for another thread.

 

It's pretty precise but not 100% precise, and far from good enough for a personal dps breakdown if you want to do some serious theory crafting.

 

Addons aren't completely out of the scope, since that is one way how you can add threat and dps meters.

If ever, I would prefer that BW adds them and maybe let the door be open for addons, for those who want them meters to look different.

 

Also, it should be by choice if you want to share your data like it already was mentioned.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Mineria

[Matte_Black]

The never will. But we do know based on the people that have voted the smallest minority is those that want the full logs.

 

If you watched the guild summit livestream, there seemed to be a predominant and vocal support for the devs among the audience when they discussed how they would be handling the combat logs. Perhaps someone who was there could confirm or refute that?

 

I also recall from similar forum threads, that support form combat logs in any form never represented a strong majority, if one at all and the general support for combat logs was pretty evenly split as to whether they needed to be personal or public. I have never seen any evidence of desire for more than BioWare plans to offer rise above what appears to be a third of SWTOR's population weighing in on this topic.

[Mineria]

No, the "pro-full combat log" playstyle by default would be full, open logs on by default. If your information is private by default, that's your playstyle by default.

Elaborate the meaning of "pro" in the quote please, I really fail to understand the relation.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Mineria

[Neoforcer]

No, that's a bad assumption. There are a lot of people who have opinions on things that are discussed on the forums but never get involved with the forums; in general, an MMO will see something like 5% of it's player base on the forums (sorry, can't source that, just remember reading it somewhere).

 

For example: None of my guild mates or friends post on the forums... they would all like full combat logs.

 

None of my guild or friends post on the forums either and they do not want carebare combat logs. Or any thing that makes the game any easier. Why because we dislike things that tell you when to move out of fire when you should already know. or when to interrupt said boss

 

So it still stands that most players in this game are fine with the way the dev are handling combat logs

[Quraswren]

No, that's a bad assumption. There are a lot of people who have opinions on things that are discussed on the forums but never get involved with the forums; in general, an MMO will see something like 5% of it's player base on the forums (sorry, can't source that, just remember reading it somewhere).

 

For example: None of my guild mates or friends post on the forums... they would all like full combat logs.

 

And your post is full of assumptions as well.

 

However, my assumption is that if they truly wanted something or had an interest. They would come here and post about or see an already existing thread and post there. Please love to complain but the rarely post to say how awesome something is and thats a fact I feel comfortable in saying.

 

So if those same people come to the forums to usually complain and yet that same group has a majority of gamers that do not want your type of combat logs. I'd wager a guess the majority of all SWTOR gamers do not want them. There having way to much fun now to even care or could care less to start with. It's not like they need that anyway.

 

However, the number we're seeing are close enough it can be seen on a larger scale.

 

I'd bet that only 1 in 4 of all the SWTOR gamers want that type of combat log you talk about. The other 3 have seen the benefits and downside to them and disagree with you.

 

Just like what we're seeing in the poll.

For the people that have enough interest, it's clear that the majority do not want the logs you do. bioware made the right move and I bet there numbers are similar to what we're getting here.

 

About 1 in 4 do. The other 3 say no. Bioware did the right thing.

[ScarletBlaze]

Guild summit notes is posted here if anyone cares to read it.

 

 

 

http://dulfy.net/2012/03/05/swtor-guild-summitlive-blogging/

[Drewser]

If you watched the guild summit livestream, there seemed to be a predominant and vocal support for the devs among the audience when they discussed how they would be handling the combat logs. Perhaps someone who was there could confirm or refute that?

 

I also recall from similar forum threads, that support form combat logs in any form never represented a strong majority, if one at all and the general support for combat logs was pretty evenly split as to whether they needed to be personal or public. I have never seen any evidence of desire for more than BioWare plans to offer rise above what appears to be a third of SWTOR's population weighing in on this topic.

 

I did. They cheered the downloadable logs.

[genesiser]

I did. They cheered the downloadable logs.

 

The cheer wasn't because it would be personal and downloadable, they cheered because they were getting some form of information that they can use to evaluate their performance. That cheer would have been just as loud if they said they were putting in damage meters like skada where you can break down all your moves, evasion, shield, and all that stuff.

Edited March 9, 2012 by genesiser

[Taroen]

So now basically the anti-log people have devolved from arguing their weak points to claiming some sort of victory based upon the fact that they *think* more people agree with them (based on a small poll that several people in the thread have complained wasn't working right for them)

 

Predictable... and still every bit as flimsy.

 

Well, guess what... Everything you people claim to hate about logging is going to happen with Bioware's "solution"...

 

Worried that some jerks are going to stroke their e-peen over their leet-pwsome deeps in public..? Well guess what... Copy/paste IS available in game, and this system doesn't prevent that.

 

Worried that you're going to be denied a spot in a raid because the logs show you putting out poor numbers..? That's going to happen, too, because I guarantee you most raids are going to require you to share logs.

 

The ONLY thing that this convoluted system gives you guys is the ability to turn off your logging, which you could have done anyway by simply ignoring the logs.

 

On the flip side, it makes it extremely inconvenient for people who want to use logs to see the metrics in a useful and timely fashion, which I suspect is what you guys really wanted all along.

 

A real solution would be a standard log with an opt out for people who don't want them on... But that would make min/maxers happy, and just can't have THAT.. now can we...?!?!?!

[Drewser]

The cheer wasn't because it would be personal and downloadable, they cheered because they were getting some form of information that they can use to evaluate their performance. That cheer would have been just as loud if they said they were putting in damage meters like skada where you can break down all your moves, evasion, shield, and all that stuff.

 

Point is they clearly were not upset the data would be downloadable.

[Dayln]

Of course not, you were looking at major PVP guild leaders, certainly not any kind of cross section of players.

 

 

I can pick out 100 people 99 of which would hate the idea

[ScarletBlaze]

So now basically the anti-log people have devolved from arguing their weak points to claiming some sort of victory based upon the fact that they *think* more people agree with them (based on a small poll that several people in the thread have complained wasn't working right for them)

 

Predictable... and still every bit as flimsy.

 

Well, guess what... Everything you people claim to hate about logging is going to happen with Bioware's "solution"...

 

Worried that some jerks are going to stroke their e-peen over their leet-pwsome deeps in public..? Well guess what... Copy/paste IS available in game, and this system doesn't prevent that.

 

Worried that you're going to be denied a spot in a raid because the logs show you putting out poor numbers..? That's going to happen, too, because I guarantee you most raids are going to require you to share logs.

 

The ONLY thing that this convoluted system gives you guys is the ability to turn off your logging, which you could have done anyway by simply ignoring the logs.

 

On the flip side, it makes it extremely inconvenient for people who want to use logs to see the metrics in a useful and timely fashion, which I suspect is what you guys really wanted all along.

 

A real solution would be a standard log with an opt out for people who don't want them on... But that would make min/maxers happy, and just can't have THAT.. now can we...?!?!?!

 

From the posts I read no one has been anti log at all. Maybe you didn't read the posts very well. Most have no problems with combat logs as long as it is kept private.

 

I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

[Seregul]

I really wouldnt mind seeing combat log text in real time as I have for previous games. I would like to know what that enemies attack is, or who did the 2k damage to me, etc. Parsing the data after the fact seems a bit cumbersome and time consuming. I probably wont bother more than once or twice, if ever.

 

I cant really see why people would be against this. The data is streamed to the client and would be private. Any attempt to intercept the data using a third party client is likely against the TOS. If there is any valid reason for not wanting this it is because of performance. The calculations are already occurring so that wouldnt be the issue, but I think people overlook the impact streaming those calculations and then rendering them has on game play. Ive seen combat systems redesigned to minimize this impact and in those games turning off the combat spam would nearly always increase the users performance.

 

As long as its private, deactivated by default, and can be toggled off then I dont see where the problem is.

 

The way it works in WoW is you use /combatlog to turn the log on and off. When you are by yourself only your data is recorded, no matter what else is happening around you. When you join a party or raid the data is combined and your combat log records everything that everyone does in your party or raid. This is the point of contention, whether or not the act of willfully grouping with someone constitutes consent for them to record your data. The argument has been made that if we all had private logs that showed only our data we could consolidate them after the fact into a comprehensive log for the entire group. To me this is a solution in search of a problem. It adds a layer of complexity for the sake of this notion of privacy that exists no where else. Where is the outcry over letting me inspect your gear and spec without consent? Or frapsing content? Or livestreaming it?

 

And it also requires that everyone is or isn't running a log to make sense. When some are recording logs and some aren't the idea loses cohesion. For example, say I'm running a log and someone else in my group isn't. If they heal me, does it get recorded? You could say yes, since they chose to heal me, and it is happening to me personally. You could also say no, since their log is off which would indicate they want total privacy in regards to what they are doing. Same thing if they provide group buffs and/or debuffs to any targets I might be attacking, which will have an impact on my personal throughput. Now expand this to a 10 minute encounter in a 16-man Op.

[Taroen]

From the posts I read no one has been anti log at all. Maybe you didn't read the posts very well. Most have no problems with combat logs as long as it is kept private.

 

I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

 

Then you've been intentionally avoiding those posts.

 

A standard log system with an option for opting out would fulfill your desire for privacy, but most of you guys seem to be dead set against that, which just tells me that your entire arguments are red-herrings.

[Degarmo]

Any tool which increases the "burn-down" rate of an MMO ends up being an issue. It alters how endgame content is designed, which in turn forces everyone to use it, and then in turn forces everyone to "voluntarily" share their information. All the while, since content is torn through at a high level, the rest of the game suffers until the developers reach their saturation point and stop worrying about appeasement and start throwing out filler endgame with shorter and shorter enrage timers just to buy time so they can work on other facets.

 

So, limited combat logs are a good-enough compromise. It will still have an effect as stated above, but perhaps it won't be as tumultuous a decline, or increase in burnthrough speed.

[ScarletBlaze]

Then you've been intentionally avoiding those posts.

 

A standard log system with an option for opting out would fulfill your desire for privacy, but most of you guys seem to be dead set against that, which just tells me that your entire arguments are red-herrings.

 

No from the posts I read they have no problem with the logs they just want it kept private, which is their right as well.

 

I had a combat log in SWG but it was only visible to me. No one had access to it unless I copied it and gave it to them. That is the kind of log most agree with.

 

Just because you join a group doesn't give them the rights to your personal log without your consent or permission.

Edited March 9, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[Gnugthreeonefive]

I play in a casual raiding guild, and we'd all love to have combat logs.

 

Optimising our performance is kind of half the fun.

[Taroen]

No from the posts I read they have no problem with the logs they just want it kept private, which is their right as well.

 

I had a combat log in SWG but it was only visible to me. No one had access to it unless I copied it and gave it to them. That is the kind of log most agree with.

 

Just becasue you join a group doesn't give them the rights to your personal log without your consent or permission.

 

Again, a standard log with the option for you people to opt out of it isn't good enough for you, even though it affords you the privacy that you claim to seek.

 

So, it betrays your ulterior motives and the baselessness of your claims.