Sorc/Sage Friendly Pull

[Thurinlore]

I'm sure this has been beat to death, but the fact that this is usable on the ball carrier completely breaks Huttball as a warzone. It's an entirely comp dependant warzone at this point, and if you have leaps/team pulls, you instantly have an advantage, not to mention the insane ranged bias that's already present. Either disable these abilities on the ball carrier, or redesign this gimmick of a map.

 

EDIT: For those that don't read the rest of my posts, I'll just summarize what I believe to be the best way to prevent rescue chain abuse. If there was a debuff placed on the player that was just Rescued, that would not allow the use of rescue on that player for 10-15 seconds. This would allow for a full resolve bar to diminish and give the defending team the possibility of defending past the first pull, as the carrier would either have to pass the ball (and risk the ball getting intercepted or the receiver being pulled/CCed/killed) or try to run it as his resolve bar emptied. Any other ideas that would still leave the ability useful, but still give a tactical edge without being abusable would be greatly appreciated!

 

Didn't even bother reading all the replies, so don't know if this has been said.. but why don't you also complain about a tank being able to jump to allies and enemies if you are complaining about a squishy being able to pull an ally?

[JediDuckling]

Why not just have them drop the ball if used, same as stealth?

 

this is a great idea

 

actualy lets try and get this implamented make a post about this to get people to sign because im not joking but this would fix alot of problems and make people play huttball how its suppose to be played

 

 

again great idea

[Technohic]

Wow. Long thread when all that needs to be said is keep the damned sorcerer/sage the F off your side of the arena. Is defense so hard of a concept?

[Demarcc]

I dont mind the pulls / leaps etc. They make the game more interesting. What I do mind is some classes (My own included) total lack of ANY of these abilitys.

 

As a Sawbones I have no pull. no push. no leap. no interced. no sprint. no knock back. Nothing.

 

This makes keeping pace with the game very difficult. As a healer I am supposed to heal my team and the ball carrier. Not really possible since there is no way i can keep pace with the ball carrier unless its a commando trudging along. Of course the same is true if my team passes. The difference is that a sage CAN keep pace using thier nifty sprint, they can protect a carrier with thier niffty knock back. (sure I can flash bang people once every min, i'd much rather have a knock back that will clear a catwalk on a 20s CD tho)

 

I dont find classes having these cool abilitys to be unbalancing, i feel that classes lacking ANY of these abilitys puts them as second rate citizens.

 

Dont even try to mention *stealth* As a healer i can not heal form stealth and it does not help me keep pace with the game since i move at a CRAWL in stealth.

[Dezeit]

To me the pull ability is not the issue. In hutball it is the equivalent of passing the ball to that person. i.e the ball moves to the same place as someone on your team. Your team member needs to be there, you might as well throw the ball.

 

Charge on the other hand is a different mechanic. It moves the ball (and the player) to a location that one of your team is not. To me that is the ability that "might" need adjustment. The range on charge just seems to be a little excessive how about halving the distance when carrying the ball.

[Humankeg]

To me the pull ability is not the issue. In hutball it is the equivalent of passing the ball to that person. i.e the ball moves to the same place as someone on your team. Your team member needs to be there, you might as well throw the ball.

 

Charge on the other hand is a different mechanic. It moves the ball (and the player) to a location that one of your team is not. To me that is the ability that "might" need adjustment. The range on charge just seems to be a little excessive how about halving the distance when carrying the ball.

 

can't pass the ball while stunned. CAN pull a person that is stunned.

 

Can be difficult to notice someone to pass the ball too. VERY easy to notice the ball carrier and pull him to you.

 

Pull is op'd, and needs to be made so that empties the resolve bar or puts a debuff on the target (actually entire team) that prevents another pull from occuring for X amount of time.

 

Again another thread on this subject is already under way:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=323888

[Humankeg]

As I mentioned yesterday, the OP clearly needs to learn how to play. Or quit and try checkers or something more suitable to his inferior gaming talent.

 

I also love how he says "he's not crying." Correct me if I'm confused here, but going to a forum to complain about a loss in Huttball and requesting the game be changed to suit your lack of ability is NOT crying? Sure...

 

PS -- Hey OP, Bioware is implementing your changes right now due to your moving post.

 

Its not a L2P issue. There is no counter against pull. YOu can't CC the target, as the target can still be pulled with a full resolve bar. And a team stacked with sorcs will always be able to get at least one of them to advantagous location to pull, and there will be nothing the other team can do to stop it.

 

The ability itself isn't op'd, but the ability to pull someone that is on full resolve is, and the ability to chain pull is op'd.

 

Unless you like seeing two teams with 7+ sorcs between them at the top of every competitive Huttball team? And since when is makin a suggestion "crying"? Everyone has opinions when it comes to things.

 

I love posters like the OP

 

Lets nerf or get ride of something

 

BECAUSE THEY FEEL IT BREAKS 1 WARZONE!!

 

Realize the game is bigger then Huttball and move around.

 

So fixing the issue so that it doesn't break even one warzone is an issue to you... why exactly?

 

 

They don't break the map, they make the map.

 

What kind of simplistic dynamic would hutball be if we weren't able to manipulate player location. It would be the same boring kill the flag carrier crap and man, did that get boring fast.

 

.

 

It makes it so teams need to stack several sorcs to be competitive. The ball movement taem with 3-4 sorcs has incredible ball movement, allowing all kinds of "outs" that a team doesn't have if they dont' ahve sorcs.

 

Ball carrier being attacked by 4 people? Pull him.

 

Ball carrier stunned in fire? Pull him.

 

Ball carrier fully CC'd and on full resolve? Pull him.

 

Ball carrier two floors down? Pull him.

 

I don't want the ability to be removed, but it needs to:

 

A) Empty the resolve bar on the target so that target can be CC'd again (ie, possibly grappled BACK to where he was just pulled from)

 

B) Puts a debuff on the target (and potentially entire team) that prevents the use of chain pulling.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Humankeg

[Derian]

So fixing the issue so that it doesn't break even one warzone is an issue to you... why exactly?

 

 

 

 

It makes it so teams need to stack several sorcs to be competitive. The ball movement taem with 3-4 sorcs has incredible ball movement, allowing all kinds of "outs" that a team doesn't have if they dont' ahve sorcs.

 

Ball carrier being attacked by 4 people? Pull him.

 

Ball carrier stunned in fire? Pull him.

 

Ball carrier fully CC'd and on full resolve? Pull him.

 

Ball carrier two floors down? Pull him.

 

I don't want the ability to be removed, but it needs to:

 

A) Empty the resolve bar on the target so that target can be CC'd again (ie, possibly grappled BACK to where he was just pulled from)

 

B) Puts a debuff on the target (and potentially entire team) that prevents the use of chain pulling.

 

As evidence in your post you focus on the ball carrier too much. Ever consider killing those sorcs setting up for the pull before they get there?

[Synacus]

Even that would be productive at this point, but the fact of the matter is leaps/pulls break that map fundamentally. They remove the need to pass, and just make it a 'give ball to tank, leap, pull, pull score!'. I doubt this was intended but Bioware has shown that they have 0 clue on what constitutes balanced gameplay at this point, so I'm not surprised this hasn't been addressed.

 

WAIT WAIT WAIT a min you mean that team mates are playing a team game as a team? THIS CAN NOT STAND

[Humankeg]

As evidence in your post you focus on the ball carrier too much. Ever consider killing those sorcs setting up for the pull before they get there?

 

Yea, I hear tryign to get the ball back from the opposing team is a bad thing

 

Sending 6 members of your team to kill the 4 sorcs up top, while their ball carrier is down below is not a smart strat. I have no issues killing a sorc 1vs1, but if we are up top in huttball, and there are multiple ones of them, chances are myself, and my 5 buddies are all getting knocked down.

 

Why is it such a problem to you that pulling a target empties the resolve bar? That would actually allow another dimension in game that forces sorcs to do more strategic pulls rather than what is going on now.

[Cancerianmoth]

Really? Why don't you stun the sorcerer/sage instead of the ball carrier with full resolve? Or knock them back? Kill them? Problem solved.

[Humankeg]

Really? Why don't you stun the sorcerer/sage instead of the ball carrier with full resolve? Or knock them back? Kill them? Problem solved.

 

A) Stuns only last for about 4 seconds.

 

B) After 4 seconds, the 4 sorcs will be able to pull again.

 

C) Luck is needed (and the sorcs have to be REALLY bad) to knock all four down off a ledge.

 

D) 4 sorcs will EASILY be able to survive against a group of 6 attacking them up on the racking. Knock backs from all 4 will take care of that no problem. Might lose one or two, but the other two will be able to get where they are needed.

 

Why is it such an issue to you that Pull empties the resolve bar, or doesn't work on targets with full resolve? Why can't pull work like other CC's?

Edited March 9, 2012 by Humankeg

[Calista_ZK]

Yea, I hear tryign to get the ball back from the opposing team is a bad thing

 

Sending 6 members of your team to kill the 4 sorcs up top, while their ball carrier is down below is not a smart strat. I have no issues killing a sorc 1vs1, but if we are up top in huttball, and there are multiple ones of them, chances are myself, and my 5 buddies are all getting knocked down.

 

Why is it such a problem to you that pulling a target empties the resolve bar? That would actually allow another dimension in game that forces sorcs to do more strategic pulls rather than what is going on now.

 

I f you are ALL getting knocked down... then there is a much., much more serious problem going on here. Either don't stand where you get knocked down, pull the sorc, push the sorc, etc.

 

IF they have multiple sorcs, its a valid strategy and yes, you do have to send people out before the sorcs are positioned.

[Derian]

Yea, I hear tryign to get the ball back from the opposing team is a bad thing

 

Sending 6 members of your team to kill the 4 sorcs up top, while their ball carrier is down below is not a smart strat. I have no issues killing a sorc 1vs1, but if we are up top in huttball, and there are multiple ones of them, chances are myself, and my 5 buddies are all getting knocked down.

 

Why is it such a problem to you that pulling a target empties the resolve bar? That would actually allow another dimension in game that forces sorcs to do more strategic pulls rather than what is going on now.

 

Why isn't it a smart strategy? They are employing things that you admittedly can not overcome. When you pay defense in most sports, you never let the offense behind you. You dont have to kill them, you have to make them respect your presence, however. I win huttball all the time, it sounds like you don't. Perhaps you should take my advice into consideration.

 

Position yourself so you don't get knocked down, use force leap, pulls etc. I don't care about your suggestions, I'm a Sentinel, and I have been the entire time in Launch. I'm a melee class, and I have absolutely no problem with sorc/sages and shadows/sins in HB. It is a failure of your team to let these people get behind your defense.

 

Ball Carriers need support. Leave him while you take care of the people in front of him. You can pass/get pulled/leap MUCH faster than a ball carrier can run/walk. If all you do is jump on the ball carrier, guards and heals will keep him alive. How do you think Raiding tanks live?

Edited March 9, 2012 by Derian

[Humankeg]

I f you are ALL getting knocked down... then there is a much., much more serious problem going on here. Either don't stand where you get knocked down, pull the sorc, push the sorc, etc.

 

IF they have multiple sorcs, its a valid strategy and yes, you do have to send people out before the sorcs are positioned.

 

Yes, that is a reasonable request. Playing against 4 top notch sorcs, all of them in the same area up in the racking in Huttball. "better find a place where they can't knock me down".

 

Lol, dude are you even reading what you are typing?

[Derian]

Yes, that is a reasonable request. Playing against 4 top notch sorcs, all of them in the same area up in the racking in Huttball. "better find a place where they can't knock me down".

 

Lol, dude are you even reading what you are typing?

 

When you act like this, how do you expect people to respect your suggestions? If you aren't veteran enough of a player to realize that knockback sends you in a direction relative to where you are to your opponent, you really shouldn't be making any kind of recommendations.

 

Move around the Sorc so when they do throw a knock back, it sends you back to where more flooring is, isntead of off the platform. All competent PVPers know this

[Humankeg]

Why isn't it a smart strategy? They are employing things that you admittedly can not overcome. When you pay defense in most sports, you never let the offense behind you.

 

Between knock backs and CC's, you will NOT be able to kill 4 sorcs up in the racking unless you overwhelm them with numbesr. That allows their ball carrier to score.

 

if you send only a few, then there will be a sorc freely able to "pull" the ball carrier when needed.

 

if you aren't familiar with this type of play it is because you don't play against quality sorcs. Sorcs are squishy... on the ground. Up top, against MULTIPLE sorcs, you just cannot avoid bing knocked down to the ground level, leaving the sorcs to easily pull their ball carrier.

 

You dont have to kill them, you have to make them respect your presence, however. I win huttball all the time, it sounds like you don't. Perhaps you should take my advice into consideration.

 

yes because "respecting my presence" will surely make them decide twice about pulling their ball carrier. Lol what are you even talking about? And i actually win 70%+ of my war zones. I don't really have issues with sorcs as of now, but I really don't feel like seeing all the top rated huttball teams with 3-4 sorcs on them.

 

Position yourself so you don't get knocked down, use force leap, pulls etc

 

yes, I'd like to see you try to "not get knocked down" against a group of 4 sorcs up in the racking in Huttball. Chances are better you would win the lottery. And yes, EVERY class has a grapple. Better yet, grapple can pull multple targets at once!!! Dude... please just stop posting until you can make some sense.

 

I don't care about your suggestions, I'm a Sentinel, and I have been the entire time in Launch. I'm a melee class, and I have absolutely no problem with sorc/sages and shadows/sins in HB. It is a failure of your team to let these people get behind your defense.

 

Lawl, just because you beat bad sorc teams, and don't have the insite to see that it is an imbalanced ability, doesn't mean that you will not be seeing teams stacking sorcs on them once rated games come out.

 

Alolowing pull to empty the resolve bar equalizes the issue here, and I don't think it is in the least bit unreasonable.

 

Ball Carriers need support.

 

Yes they do, and sorcs provide by a huge, wide margin, the most support to a ball carrier. You just aren't getting this. A couple small tweaks (force speed is affected by carrying the ball and "pull" empties the resolve bar") fixes this.

 

Leave him while you take care of the people in front of him. You can pass/get pulled/leap MUCH faster than a ball carrier can run/walk. If all you do is jump on the ball carrier, guards and heals will keep him alive. How do you think Raiding tanks live?

 

Yes, because a team of mostly non-force users will so easily catch sorcs in Huttball. No speed boost vs force speed. Tons of CC (including knock backs) so when you do catch up to the sorcs, you get knocked down.

 

It is just not happening. Find a couple great sorcs, play with them, and see how easily they can help the team score. Now multiply that ten fold, and you will get how effective coordinating teams, stacking sorcs, will be in Huttball.

[Humankeg]

When you act like this, how do you expect people to respect your suggestions? If you aren't veteran enough of a player to realize that knockback sends you in a direction relative to where you are to your opponent, you really shouldn't be making any kind of recommendations.

 

Move around the Sorc so when they do throw a knock back, it sends you back to where more flooring is, isntead of off the platform. All competent PVPers know this

 

Do you not see how stuipd this suggestion is? Try rolling marrbles around in a rectangular tray, and constantly position your finger in places in which you will not be between the marble and a side of the tray.

 

It just doesn't work like that. Unless you have the literal reflexes of a jedi, 4 sorcs ganging up on you WILL knock you down. You will not be able to position or react fast enough to 4 of them to stay up top. You will have to send most of your team to try to kill the sorcs, and it will take them forever, leaving most of their team helping their ball carrier to score.

 

Changing it so "pull" empties the resolve bar, doesn't force a team to go after the sorcs in such a manner. They are sstill a huge threat, but at least there is the possibilty to do SOMETHING if the ball carrier gets gribbed while on full resolve.

 

THe object of Huttball is not to prevent sorcs from making it to the top levels; it is to prevent the other team from scoring. You are asking for the game's priority to be "don't let sorcs occupy top racks, everyone after them".

Edited March 9, 2012 by Humankeg

[Derian]

Between knock backs and CC's, you will NOT be able to kill 4 sorcs up in the racking unless you overwhelm them with numbesr. That allows their ball carrier to score.

I can, I have, and will continue to do so. Overload is on a 20second Cooldown, and I coordinate with my Guildmates who is a threat to the team. We act accordingly.

if you send only a few, then there will be a sorc freely able to "pull" the ball carrier when needed.

 

if you aren't familiar with this type of play it is because you don't play against quality sorcs. Sorcs are squishy... on the ground. Up top, against MULTIPLE sorcs, you just cannot avoid bing knocked down to the ground level, leaving the sorcs to easily pull their ball carrier.

 

I've been involved in SWTOR since closed beta in August. When my guild migrated to Helm of Graush we brought a lot of heat from other elite guilds who wanted to take us out. I'd wager to say we have one of the better servers in the entire game. Including top empire guilds from Closed Beta. Rather than being defensive of your own shortcomings, build off of them. Kill the sorcs, and quit complaining.

 

 

yes because "respecting my presence" will surely make them decide twice about pulling their ball carrier. Lol what are you even talking about? And i actually win 70%+ of my war zones. I don't really have issues with sorcs as of now, but I really don't feel like seeing all the top rated huttball teams with 3-4 sorcs on them.

You don't win 70% of anything because you are complaining about losing Huttball, and you are explaining strategy that known HB failures always fall behind. There is no "Top Huttball" team, you can't choose your WZ. Stop making excuses for your failure.

 

 

yes, I'd like to see you try to "not get knocked down" against a group of 4 sorcs up in the racking in Huttball. Chances are better you would win the lottery. And yes, EVERY class has a grapple. Better yet, grapple can pull multple targets at once!!! Dude... please just stop posting until you can make some sense.

You seem to have an obsession for your hatred towards knockback. Learn how to position yourself in contrast to the person with knockback. Sorc knockback is weak anyway it's the Commando knockback that will F you. Now you are getting angry. Whatever, I'm not the one who can't win at HB.

 

 

 

Lawl, just because you beat bad sorc teams, and don't have the insite to see that it is an imbalanced ability, doesn't mean that you will not be seeing teams stacking sorcs on them once rated games come out.

 

Alolowing pull to empty the resolve bar equalizes the issue here, and I don't think it is in the least bit unreasonable.

 

 

 

Yes they do, and sorcs provide by a huge, wide margin, the most support to a ball carrier. You just aren't getting this. A couple small tweaks (force speed is affected by carrying the ball and "pull" empties the resolve bar") fixes this.

 

 

 

Yes, because a team of mostly non-force users will so easily catch sorcs in Huttball. No speed boost vs force speed. Tons of CC (including knock backs) so when you do catch up to the sorcs, you get knocked down.

 

It is just not happening. Find a couple great sorcs, play with them, and see how easily they can help the team score. Now multiply that ten fold, and you will get how effective coordinating teams, stacking sorcs, will be in Huttball.

 

All I read is making excuses for not winning HB, you clearly have bad strategy when you ask if you should send people to take care of Sorcs who are behind you. You can choose to improve, or you can make excuses. Choice is your's. Any competent/elite pvper in SWTOR knows how to take care of situations you talk about. I suggest more experience.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Derian

[Humankeg]

I can, I have, and will continue to do so. Overload is on a 20second Cooldown, and I coordinate with my Guildmates who is a threat to the team. We act accordingly..

 

No you don't. 4 sorcs up top will knock you down. End of story.

 

I've been involved in SWTOR since closed beta in August. When my guild migrated to Helm of Graush we brought a lot of heat from other elite guilds who wanted to take us out. I'd wager to say we have one of the better servers in the entire game. Including top empire guilds from Closed Beta. Rather than being defensive of your own shortcomings, build off of them. Kill the sorcs, and quit complaining.

 

Yea, being in beta really makes you a skilled pvp'er. Again, please think before posting.

 

You don't win 70% of anything because you are complaining about losing Huttball, and you are explaining strategy that known HB failures always fall behind. There is no "Top Huttball" team, you can't choose your WZ. Stop making excuses for your failure.

 

Yes I do. And please, quote me where I am complaining about losing Huttball? And yes, there is a "top huttball" team. Its the team that dominates the most in Huttball.

 

You seem to have an obsession for your hatred towards knockback. Learn how to position yourself in contrast to the person with knockback. Sorc knockback is weak anyway it's the Commando knockback that will F you. Now you are getting angry. Whatever, I'm not the one who can't win at HB.

 

L2Read. No idea what this obcession is you speak of. Nor do I have a hatred for knockbacks. I don't like it when it happens, but I hardly think its op'd. And getting angy? Please, stop being stupid.

 

All I read is making excuses for not winning HB, you clearly have bad strategy when you ask if you should send people to take care of Sorcs who are behind you. You can choose to improve, or you can make excuses. Choice is your's. Any competent/elite pvper in SWTOR knows how to take care of situations you talk about. I suggest more experience.

 

Huttball isn't called Sorcball for a reason. The primary goal of Huttball isn't to keep sorcs from staying up top or make it to the goal line.

 

And no, more expereinced/better players don't exist atm. And no, they don't know how to "take care of situations like this". Getting knocked to the ground, having the ball carrier on full resolve, and two sorcs waiting up top to pull gives ZERO options to keep them from scoring other than just straght and hard dps to the ball carrier.

 

Having pull empty the resolve bar will at least allow some olptions, and not force teams to take 3-4 sorcs.

 

Again, please explain to me how having "pull" empty a resolve bar be detrimental to the game? its not a nerf to the Sorc class. It doesn't change how well they play 1vs1, so you can be assured that you awesome class will still play the same after this change goes through.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Humankeg

[Paulman]

Players can just pass the ball. Having the ability to pull the carrier doesn't really advance the ball any more than they would normally be able to. Being able to pull the enemy is much better. The problem is people are dumb and don't pass.

[GRINnBARRETT]

I should just get a rubber stamp: Quit trying to take the fun out of Huttball.

 

All those special abilities is what makes Huttball fun. If it was just whack-a-mole then why even bother with different elevations and traps.

[BountyFodder]

Players can just pass the ball. Having the ability to pull the carrier doesn't really advance the ball any more than they would normally be able to. Being able to pull the enemy is much better. The problem is people are dumb and don't pass.

 

Ye Exactly that. It is a lack of defensive tactics that makes all the bad players run up the middle ramp and off onto the middle rafter platform without looking at me sitting on the top left or top right. They crowd around the ball carrier and stun him to full resolve. Then I just pull him out of the fray. Whether I pulled him or he managed a pass to me, makes no difference to the fact that I should have been an equal if not higher priority kill target, or at least knock off/controlled target, than the ball carrier at that point.

 

I have said it before. The complainers are like 6 year old children playing soccer. Its all 20 players piled around the ball, swinging legs at it. Nobody is thinking of positioning and man marking, and opening yourself up for a pass etc...

[BelphagorAD]

Don't let sorc move ahead if you dont want them to Friendly pull.

 

If you remove all this from Huttball.

People will just Move ahead to get pass.

and You will be back here on forum for a Nerf on Pass ability.

 

 

This^

 

Letting a team get into position is not playing defense. I've seen a team pick up the ball mid, pass to the top, pass to the top side, run down and pass to someone waiting below for a quick score because the other team was more worried about scoring kills around mid than keeping their backfield clear.

 

Had a 5 v 6 game the other night where both teams had quick pass lanes set up and it was over under 10 mins.. I may have seen 1 pull by the other team but it didn't matter as much as who picked up the ball first and ditched it to their 2nd passer.

 

Passing & Position > rescue... but it does come in handy for when the ball handlers try and walk over firepits & get chain stunned...

[unixbomber]

Players can just pass the ball. Having the ability to pull the carrier doesn't really advance the ball any more than they would normally be able to. Being able to pull the enemy is much better. The problem is people are dumb and don't pass.

/thread