Starglide Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 I am going to say this one more time so hopefully it syncs in. COMBAT LOGS ARE NOT JUST FOR DAMAGE. YOU CAN SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR RAID TO HELP WITH ENCOUNTERS, MECHANICS, HEALING AMONG MANY OTHER STATISTICS NECESSARY/HELPFUL FOR PROGRESSION. I would also like to ask this question to the people using the argument that they do not want combat logs because they do not want to be judged. Even though I really don't think that excluding a feature for the simple misuse that may occur, lets play devil advocate shall we? If you want to raid and play competitively with a guild, do you think you should be judged based on performance? If not, why do you think you should not be judged based on performance if in EVERY OTHER competitive game (spots included), performance is detrimental to success and progression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldrenath Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I like the way BW is doing it. I vote no on combat logs as the OP describes them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efylinx Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I would also like to ask this question to the people using the argument that they do not want combat logs because they do not want to be judged. Even though I really don't think that excluding a feature for the simple misuse that may occur, lets play devil advocate shall we? If you want to raid and play competitively with a guild, do you think you should be judged based on performance? If not, why do you think you should not be judged based on performance if in EVERY OTHER competitive game (spots included), performance is detrimental to success and progression? This isn't a professional sport or a job, people play the game to relax not be stressed out. I think that's the basic reason behind the "don't pass judgment on me" argument. With respect to your earlier argument about logs aren't just for DPS but also other events, like what wiped the raid, I have no qualms with a combat log that records incoming events (i.e. damage/etc caused by mobs) instead of outgoing events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldrenath Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) P.S. I was in a US 84th guild and ranked 127 US and 330 World in World of Warcraft. Also a 3x gladiator. So yes, I consider myself a competitive MMO gamer. If you have nothing productive to say and/or do not understand the argument or what we are asking to be implemented (which it seems)--stay out of the conversation. You are making yourself look ridiculous. "You are making yourself look ridiculous." ...said the person that just e-peen bragged about being "ranked" in a video game. Edited March 7, 2012 by Eldrenath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frezzyisfuzzy Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I come from an EQ2 background, and that game had an incredibly helpful and informative log parser called ACT. Can it be misused or misinterpreted? Yes, absolutely. That being said, I still vote strongly in favor of an all-inclusive combat log. What do you do when you're in a group and can't kill a mob because it's dying too slowly? You have two dps, so how do you determine which one isn't pulling his/her weight? If you want to continue in that flashpoint, you need to replace one or both of them, and an inclusive log would allow you to make the right decision. What do you do when you're a raid leader and you want to know if a new recruit died from lack of healing or because he messed up? Honestly, I'm shocked by how vehemently people oppose what I consider to be an integral part of MMOs. So taking into account the opinion of the majority, why not make it a raid/group leader option? Allow a raid/group leader to make everyone's logs public. If you don't want to be judged, fine. You can bow out and find a different group. But for people who either don't want to or can't afford to carry dead weight, it would let you see who's performing at the required level and who is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevlarto Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 No. Don't turn this into WoW! agree I vote NO, i have levled 2 50's raided and pvp'ed with out it, don't need it, the only thing I might use is seeing what I am being hit with outside that,, nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZBrootal Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I really wouldn't mind having traditional self combat logs, but having played a dozen or so MMOs, I know what stems from them and the mentalities that are in turn created. I vote no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladido Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I vote NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CulannHS Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 ...Honestly, I'm shocked by how vehemently people oppose what I consider to be an integral part of MMOs... Well..I come from a EQ1 / Anarchy Online background, and we were the top guild on our server in EQ1, with more server firsts than I could list in a day of recollection, and we never, not once, used a parser/DPS meter. Didn't need 'em. And even in AO, doing Mercs or any of the other bosses right up to the Beast, didn't require a parser. It DID require a person to use their brains and study what they had, what they could improve, and guess what ? People did so. Passionately. The passion is gone now...a remnant of a bygone era where people used their brains to improve, rather than relying on statistics, math and figures to "optimize" DPS. It's a tragedy really...people no longer rely on intuition and logic as they once used to. Now it's Recount, parsers, "L2P Noob" and more grief and headache than any person should ever bear. No to combat logs. And I'll reiterate what I said before: If it comes to a point where people are asking for combat logs for Ops and etc, as a programmer I'm going to write a app in Visual C where a person can input their class, level, and desired DPS and have the app modify a existing log to show the DPS the person input. I'll upload it and the source code, libraries, the works somewhere public so that any individual can freely download it. Want to see my DPS rating? Sure thing...just let me run the app on this log and send it on to you. (chuckle) Have fun with a "worldoflogs" site. That will be amusing, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monfort Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 How well do you think 87 (!) random players actually represent the hundreds of thousands of players actually playing the game? Maybe the one thing we can learn from it is that the bad players, the ones actually afraid to get called out on their subpar performance spend too much time on the forums instead of playing the game and working on improving themselves? just kidding of course! There's that elitist attitude of yours again. Not everyone who plays wants or needs to min/max their performance. Your saying if they don't have a spec that meets your criteria then they are subpar players. You seem unable to realize that not everyone plays the same way as you. Your way is not the only way and it's very definitely not the right way. You call people out about spending time on the forum, but look how much time you are spending on the forum trying to ram your ideas on game play down everyone else throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syylara Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Quite hilarious, the ones arguing most strenuously to be able to see other people's combat logs can simultaneously assure us that it won't cause chest-thumping pissing contests and in the next breath say anyone who doesn't want one is a bad player who is trying to hide their lack of performance and probably can't cut it. Irony is delicious :9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaForceiswithme Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I also don't want combat logs. I DO want tools to improve my PVP but combat logs seem to be just for wannabe PVP elitist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roechacca Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I suffer from apathy on this issue. ill sell my vote to the highest bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djor_Kantos Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 No. Don't turn this into WoW! /agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colow_Leper Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Actually - I've got an idea - how about having a function that assigns a value to each item that you're wearing - so that people can quickly see whether you have enough kit to do the raid that you want to go on. We could call it, oh, say "Gearscore"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackavaar Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) No. Personal combat logs is all we need. We don't need players being sidelined because their DPS/Healing is 2 points lower than what is considered good by the leader of a group. Edited March 8, 2012 by Blackavaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valgar Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Actually - I've got an idea - how about having a function that assigns a value to each item that you're wearing - so that people can quickly see whether you have enough kit to do the raid that you want to go on. We could call it, oh, say "Gearscore"! HAHA. These are all the people who complain they want a new game then get one but then want to add all the stuff there old game had. Weird.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglide Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) This isn't a professional sport or a job, people play the game to relax not be stressed out. I think that's the basic reason behind the "don't pass judgment on me" argument. With respect to your earlier argument about logs aren't just for DPS but also other events, like what wiped the raid, I have no qualms with a combat log that records incoming events (i.e. damage/etc caused by mobs) instead of outgoing events. Once again, I understand your point. But why does something have to be professional for people to be judged? Did you grow up on a school yard or do anything competitive? At the end of the day there are two types of people... people that play casually and people that play competitively. If you play casually, there is a mode created JUST FOR YOU. Where people won't use combat logs to judge you because no one in Story mode is there for competition because HARD MODE and NIGHTMARE mode are the gear progressing modes. Any player looking to progress at a competitive level and get competitive gear, will NOT BE DOING STORY MODE AT ALL. This has been said by the developers. So AGAIN, I ask--Why are you trying to crutch a certain play style? Just because you do not take the game seriously or 'professionally' doesn't mean that people that WANT TO, shouldn't be able to. Why should we have to do extra work and/or lose vital information about specific things to cater to a certain type of player? I am trying my hardest NOT to be rude. But honestly dude, I do not understand why you aren't getting the point. I would love to talk to you verbally in vent or something to try and explain what I am talking about because it seems like it is either not getting through to a lot of you or you are not READING. TLDR -- Not having a combat log hurts a certain type of player--Hardcore. Having one does not hurt the other type of player ie casual. The reason being is because there is a difficulty setting that gathers your demographic created for 1.2 and beyond. Edited March 8, 2012 by Starglide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starglide Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Actually - I've got an idea - how about having a function that assigns a value to each item that you're wearing - so that people can quickly see whether you have enough kit to do the raid that you want to go on. We could call it, oh, say "Gearscore"! Omg.. what the hell does gearscore have to do with a combat log. Honestly, what is happening here is you are allowing your bad experience in WoW effecting your thoughts about a COMBAT LOG. BioWare has created a difficulty setting for all you who do not want to be judged. If Blizzard had a casual mode for its end game content, there would be no one there judging you. But because there are people gearing up in the same difficulty that people who just want to relax and play in, people don't want to deal with less experienced. Not having combat log will not solve the issue you and many others are complaining about... a new difficulty mode fixes that. YOU ARE ALREADY GETTING THAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Quite hilarious, the ones arguing most strenuously to be able to see other people's combat logs can simultaneously assure us that it won't cause chest-thumping pissing contests and in the next breath say anyone who doesn't want one is a bad player who is trying to hide their lack of performance and probably can't cut it. Irony is delicious :9. lol... yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandriell Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 74% say what they are giving us is fine. Why hasn't this thread died yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 NO You are damn lucky to get what you did; Bioware would have had a riot on their hands if they did anything more than logs that only you can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Omg.. what the hell does gearscore have to do with a combat log. He was making the point that they are both absurd distortions to MMO play (note the emphasis on the word play). Not because they are bad in and of themselves. I'm going to say that again because you like to ignore and distort. Not because they are bad in and of themselves. Rather, because they allow sociopaths to ply their griefing on others in MMOs more easily. Maybe if you can guarantee there will be no sociopaths using performance tools against other players, more of us might agree with you. But you can't.... so we are not going to agree. LOOK..... you put up a poll, the results have been, and continue to be, very negative toward logs as you have defined them. Besides, Bioware has already said how they are going to do it and IT ISN'T GOING TO BE YOUR WAY. Stop berating people because they don't agree with you and take your MMO marbles somewhere where you can play Logsville Online. Kay, thanx. Edited March 8, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frezzyisfuzzy Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 So taking into account the opinion of the majority, why not make it a raid/group leader option? Allow a raid/group leader to make everyone's logs public. If you don't want to be judged, fine. You can bow out and find a different group. But for people who either don't want to or can't afford to carry dead weight, it would let you see who's performing at the required level and who is not. Still haven't seen any valid arguments against this. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 74% say what they are giving us is fine. Why hasn't this thread died yet? Becasue Starglide insists on throwing tantrums and whining because the poll is not going his way, and people disagree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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