I think I know why so many are angry about the Valor and Gear changes

[Cheeseblaster]

What? You don't get a penalty at all for being good in any way. Getting the same reward as everyone else is not a penalty.

 

Besides you wont. Even with the changes the players that play the most and do the best will get the best gear faster and easier.

 

Its very simple If you are better than your opponent then the game gives you rewards that make you even better than your opponent. That's the fundamental flaw in the system.

 

I'll have to respectfully disagree. I just don't see that as a flaw at all. It didn't stop me and thousands of other players from grinding away and earning the higher level stuff. It didn't stop me and thousands of players from grinding through being a fresh 50, paying my dues, and earning that higher level armor. And also in pre-50 PVP the bonuses that lowbies get already negates a good part of that to begin with.

 

Now I will say I would be fine with this if they made the rewards for winning significantly larger than those for losing. If that is coming down the road then these recent changes are even more useless. But without that the difference between winning and losing in terms of reward is so minuscule it's a joke. So medals were a way of showing your skill, and how much you brought to the team. As a Trooper I could earn 5 medals by defending and giving protection to my team. It showed I cared and I offered something. Now, meh, I don't get credit for that outside of winning, which as I just stated offers no real reward advantage from losing at the moment.

 

The current system did not prevent anybody who cared from gaining higher level and being able to play even lvl 50 PVP if they put forth the effort. The current system rewarded those who put forth time and effort.

 

The problem here is that enough people don't want to put forth the effort. They want the same rewards for merely showing up as for those of us who play our butts off and play to win. This will not get the free-loaders to take PVP any more seriously than they do now. It will do the opposite, cause now they have even less incentive to do better.

 

I had to earn my stripes. This is war not kindergarten.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Cheeseblaster

[Cheeseblaster]

...This analogy is bad, even by this forum's standards.

 

whatever

 

Fine then it is like the seniors on a college football team being made to play with 1 hand behind their back so the freshman can play and not get their feelings hurt.

 

The senior probably spent a lot of time working on his skills and strength etc... in other words he EARNED it. The freshman hasn't, so why should he get special treatment?

 

It's not merely a question about armor. There's a lot of other things that go into gaining more rewards in the present system.

 

But like I said, this is war not kindergarten.

[drduncan]

The wow kids want their gear advantage! you know, for all that hard work *tries not to laugh*

 

BM took no skill to attain.

 

I have BM myself so don't start acting like it took oodles and oodles of skill to farm valor, because it didn't. The time-sink combined with Ilum made it a lot easier for one faction to attain creating a large gear gap that was slowly killing end game pvp.

 

How sad that you'll have to compete against equally geared opponents.

 

The real kindergarten attitude is the one where people demand an advantage for whatever reason. You deserve it cause you....are skilled? Then why do need it?

 

Bottom-Line: If you are QQing over people having the same gear as you.... you are bad, not elite. Take a look in the mirror.

[EternalFinality]

Fine then it is like the seniors on a college football team being made to play with 1 hand behind their back so the freshman can play and not get their feelings hurt.

 

The senior probably spent a lot of time working on his skills and strength etc... in other words he EARNED it. The freshman hasn't, so why should he get special treatment?

 

...Another terrible analogy - PLENTY of freshman outperform seniors without any handicaps. They have a term for this - "one and done" players.

 

So yet another terrible analogy.

[Emencie]

I'll have to respectfully disagree. I just don't see that as a flaw at all. It didn't stop me and thousands of other players from grinding away and earning the higher level stuff. It didn't stop me and thousands of players from grinding through being a fresh 50, paying my dues, and earning that higher level armor. And besides the bonuses that lowbies get in PVP already negates a good part of that to begin with.

 

Now I will say I would be fine with this if they made the rewards for winning significantly larger than those for losing. If that is coming down the road then these recent changes are even more useless. But without that the difference between winning and losing in terms of reward is so minuscule it's a joke. So medals were a way of showing your skill, and how much you brought to the team. As a Trooper I could earn 5 medals by defending and giving protection to my team. It showed I cared and I offered something. Now, meh, I don't get credit for that outside of winning, which as I just stated offers no real reward advantage from losing at the moment.

 

The current system did not prevent anybody who cared from gaining higher level and being able to play even lvl 50 PVP if they put forth the effort. The current system rewarded those who put forth time and effort.

 

The problem here is that enough people don't want to put forth the effort. They want the same rewards for merely showing up as for those of us who play our butts off and play to win. This will not get the free-loaders to take PVP any more seriously than they do now. It will do the opposite, cause now they have even less incentive to do better.

 

I had to earn my stripes. This is war not kindergarten.

 

I agree 100% with the idea that losers should not receive anything. At all... Period. You loss. Train up and try again later.

 

My problem only comes in when the winners are getting "skill" increasing items. If me beating someone means that next time they try again they have no chance at all because I'm so strong now that skill doesn't even matter. What is the point?

 

I'm not a bully and I get no joy at all from killing people that cannot even fight back. It just makes so little sense to me... Ok that's not entirely true. I definitely get it and understand the inherent glee from just WTFPWNING someone because you are such a BAMF (gear) that they cant even hurt you... But come on man you know that gets old fast.

 

I don't think anyone wants the rewards... Lets say for example the reward for BM was the white crystal (and it was the only way to get it in the game) That was the only reward and when you pulled your white saber out people "ooo" and "ahh" at you. Then while there would be a few people that wine they cant get it. Most of these threads would not exist. Because the majority of people don't want rewards for no effort. They just want to compete on the same level as everyone else. If the rewards were cosmetic, monetary, or something like that there wouldn't be an issue and I would be right there with you. "Want the white crystal? Train up and win!"

 

But the simple fact is the rewards give those who get them first an advantage, making those who come after have to work even harder to get them. Why? Why give anyone an advantage in any competition?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Emencie

[MartyrLXXVII]

Pvp gear tiers are terrible, always have been always will be.

 

You want an epeen boost that says 'I'm better then you'? That's fine, any shiny without stats and foo that, titles armor models, etc. It doesn't need stats. If you demend to have stats it just tells me yoy aren't better on an equal footing, you always have to have a crutch.

 

The minute you admit less stats is better you gain far more respect then then someone with the highest pvp ranking, best gear and everything who is demanding another tier for 'progression'.

[Beyaco]

All of them before resil was introduced in WoW? I mean I have no problem with progression at all. I love PvE but truly it has no place in competitive PvP at all. Honestly I thought Bioware hit the nail on the head with Bolster. Sure it had some problems but it was a great answer to the problem of PvE gear turning the tide in PvP. It was perfect I thought. When you step into PvP everyone is normalized period. No one better than the other except for the skill you bring to the table. And truly that is the way all competitive games and sports are played.

 

As for what MMO follows that line of thinking I would say IMHO the game with the best MMORPG PvP ever made. Guildwars, It was an amazing system that rewarded teamwork, critical thinking with hundreds of build combinations, and your personal skill playing your character.

 

The reward was winning, statistics and recognition.

 

You are misinformed of what bolster did and currently does. Gear matters in the 10-49 bracket.

 

GW is not a mmo...

 

Again, name 1 mmo that does not have rewards and progression for winning or completing certain quests/goals?

 

I mean, could you imagine? You win a warzone and are rewarded with a different colored *insert piece of gear*....Or, a new title after so many wins....

 

Do you expect to get a subscription for a system like that? GW doesn't, lol. Neither does CoD, BF3 or any RTS out there

Edited March 6, 2012 by Beyaco

[jitsuo]

I agree 100% with the idea that losers should not receive anything. At all... Period. You loss. Train up and try again later.

 

My problem only comes in when the winners are getting "skill" increasing items. If me beating someone means that next time they try again they have no chance at all because I'm so strong now that skill doesn't even matter. What is the point?

 

I'm not a bully and I get no joy at all from killing people that cannot even fight back. It just makes so little sense to me... Ok that's not entirely true. I definitely get it and understand the inherent glee from just WTFPWNING someone because you are such a BAMF (gear) that they cant even hurt you... But come on man you know that gets old fast.

 

I don't think anyone wants the rewards... Lets say for example the reward for BM was the white crystal (and it was the only way to get it in the game) That was the only reward and when you pulled your white saber out people "ooo" and "ahh" at you. Then while there would be a few people that wine they cant get it. Most of these threads would not exist. Because the majority of people don't want rewards for no effort. They just want to compete on the same level as everyone else. If the rewards were cosmetic, monetary, or something like that there wouldn't be an issue and I would be right there with you. "Want the white crystal? Train up and win!"

 

But the simple fact is the rewards give those who get them first an advantage, making those who come after have to work even harder to get them. Why? Why give anyone an advantage in any competition?

 

Now the white crystal I can 100% absolutely agree with. That would be amazing

[RealAeiouy]

Having gear disparity at end game pvp where everyone can't get it does not make sense.

[Beyaco]

Having gear disparity at end game pvp where everyone can't get it does not make sense.

 

Don't think that has ever been the case in SWTOR. If you are suggesting that "time" falls under this category, I am sorry, I would have to disagree.

[RealAeiouy]

I have kept my orange level 40 white robe that looks awesome in my stash waiting for just such an occasion!

 

Yeah I keep all my orange gear

[Cheeseblaster]

I agree 100% with the idea that losers should not receive anything. At all... Period. You loss. Train up and try again later.

 

I guess that's my big hang up. If the purpose of this is to get people to play harder or take it more seriously, making the winning reward significantly larger than the losing reward would take care of everything quickly.

 

People wouldn't join a WZ and sit cause it wouldn't get them anything. People would play hard to win becuase there would be a significant advantage.. The people who really cared about winning would play, and those that didn't wouldn't want to put forth the effort, and would get nothing for afk etc...

 

But right now this new set-up does next to nothing to address those issues for a large majority of the problem players.

 

Many of the medals I get are for protection/gaurd/prevent damage to teamates. All medals I earn for helping my teamates and paying attention. They are the ones I have to work towards too. 75k, solo kill, killing blow, etc... don't require me to do anything except spam my basic attack. So I will reach my 4 medal cap without any thought. Then the medals that I think are more important/take skill and shold be rewarded aren't.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Cheeseblaster

[Emencie]

You are misinformed of what bolster did and currently does. Gear matters in the 10-49 bracket.

 

GW is not a mmo...

 

Again, name 1 mmo that does not have rewards and progression for winning or completing certain quests/goals?

 

I mean, could you imagine? You win a warzone and are rewarded with a different colored *insert piece of gear*....Or, a new title after so many wins....

 

Do you expect to get a subscription for a system like that? GW doesn't, lol. Neither does CoD, BF3 or any RTS out there

 

I know bolster is not perfect I said so But it was a perfect idea. It solves the problem of PVE gear dominating PVP which is why PvP stats were invented in the first place.

 

PvP stats and tiers of gear were not invented to keep subs considering countless MMOs existed well before and still after games have done PvP stats and don't or didn't have them at all.

 

the Idea that chasing gear is the only thing that keeps an MMO going is incorrect. As many games have enjoyed success without having that mechanic at all. Games like COH and Galaxies comes to mind where you PvPed to PvP for the Joy of PvPing and rankings rather than loot that makes you roflstomp the opposition. I could pretty much name any MMO pre WoW's Resil and all of them didn't reward PvP with gear that made you uber. Heck in L2 people killed people for any plethora of reasons besides getting a reward especially since you were actually penalized for killing someone unprovoked.

 

And GW is an MMO don't know where you got that from.

[Bovinity]

but I also believe there should be a penultimate set of gear that the best of the best are able to achieve.

 

So what would the set of gear after that be?

[jitsuo]

Whoops Edited March 6, 2012 by jitsuo

[Bovinity]

Yeah, that was my point. Penultimate means next-to-last, not last.

[jitsuo]

Yeah, that was my point. Penultimate means next-to-last, not last.

 

Derp, my bad, sorry mate

[Bovinity]

 

(too short!)

[MartyrLXXVII]

Uhh.....there wouldn't be....penultimate gear means that is the top gear available. Duh

 

Lol wow.

 

I'll skip your lack of the English language and counter the point I know you meant.

 

Ok so the best players deserve a level of gear, better then everyone else. Ok except in MMOs, anyone given enough time can reach any level. So for the best of the best you always need newer and newer shinies.

 

Now if all those shinies have stats then stats start ballooning hugely out of proportion, which then begins to stress the game balance.

 

Why not just make tier after tier of cool thing without stats. Then the game doesn't break itself with new stats every 3-6 months or whatever. But at the same time you really find out who the best of best are based on skill and not gear earned through more time in-game.o

 

Gear tiers in pvp are stupid, always have been always will be.

[jitsuo]

Lol wow.

 

I'll skip your lack of the English language and counter the point I know you meant.

 

Ok so the best players deserve a level of gear, better then everyone else. Ok except in MMOs, anyone given enough time can reach any level. So for the best of the best you always need newer and newer shinies.

 

Now if all those shinies have stats then stats start ballooning hugely out of proportion, which then begins to stress the game balance.

 

Why not just make tier after tier of cool thing without stats. Then the game doesn't break itself with new stats every 3-6 months or whatever. But at the same time you really find out who the best of best are based on skill and not gear earned through more time in-game.o

 

Gear tiers in pvp are stupid, always have been always will be.

 

Irony has been bolded.

 

Also, gear tiers allow people to have a goal in PvP. Without a long term goal, repetitive PvP tends to get interesting.

Edited March 6, 2012 by jitsuo

[elorei]

nm, someone already called out the use of the word penultimate. Edited March 6, 2012 by elorei

[MartyrLXXVII]

Irony has been bolded.

 

Also, gear tiers allow people to have a goal in PvP. Without a long term goal, repetitive PvP tends to get interesting.

 

Blame typos on the fact I'm posting from my phone.

 

And as I said, you can have the same goals to shoot for WITHOUT STATS. Titles, special armor models, weapon color crystals.

 

There is any number of ways to declare 'I'm better then you' without new stats. I've said it before and say it a million times more.

 

The only people that want more and more stats are people that need a crutch and can't compete on skill alone.

[Beyaco]

I know bolster is not perfect I said so But it was a perfect idea. It solves the problem of PVE gear dominating PVP which is why PvP stats were invented in the first place.

 

PvP stats and tiers of gear were not invented to keep subs considering countless MMOs existed well before and still after games have done PvP stats and don't or didn't have them at all.

 

the Idea that chasing gear is the only thing that keeps an MMO going is incorrect. As many games have enjoyed success without having that mechanic at all. Games like COH and Galaxies comes to mind where you PvPed to PvP for the Joy of PvPing and rankings rather than loot that makes you roflstomp the opposition. I could pretty much name any MMO pre WoW's Resil and all of them didn't reward PvP with gear that made you uber. Heck in L2 people killed people for any plethora of reasons besides getting a reward especially since you were actually penalized for killing someone unprovoked.

 

And GW is an MMO don't know where you got that from.

 

Is Guild Wars an MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game)?

 

Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences. Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment. Thousands of players inhabit the same virtual world. Players can meet new friends in gathering places like towns and outposts where they form parties and go questing with them. Unlike many MMOs, when players form a party and embark upon a quest in Guild Wars, they get their own private copy of the area where the quest takes place. This design eliminates some of the frustrating gameplay elements commonly associated with MMOs, such as spawn camping, loot stealing, and standing in a queue in order to complete a quest.

 

Guild Wars takes place in a large virtual world made up of many different zones, and players can walk from one end of the world to the other. In Guild Wars much of the tedium of traveling through the world has been eliminated. Players can instantly return to any safe area (town or outpost) that they have previously visited just by clicking on it in the world overview map.

 

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience. Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild. As characters progress, they acquire a diverse set of skills and items, enabling them to use new strategies in combat. Players can do battle in open arenas or compete in guild-vs-guild warfare or the international tournament. Engaging in combat is always the player's choice, however; there is no player-killing in cooperative areas of the world.

 

Players in Guild Wars can play with or against players from around the world in the global tournaments and arenas. And while players are initially placed in a region based on their selected language (so that there is a greater likelihood that others will be speaking their language) they can join up in the always-available International District to form parties and to play with anyone from anywhere in the world.

 

http://guildwars.com/products/guildwars/features/default.php

 

Now, onto the meat of what you said. First off, bolster was to close the LEVEL gap between people 10 and 50. Not close the GEAR gap between someone that is 40 and wearing purple gear and someone who is 40 wearing green gear. See the difference? Otherwise, gear would not matter at all...

 

I am sorry, but we have to agree to disagree about the carrot and the stick concept and mmo's. I am pretty sure that WoW raised the level during expansions for this very reason.

 

SWG! Ahh, my most favorite mmo of all time! While I agree that PvP did not reward you (pre-cu pvp at least). You know what, there was a grind to become better 100% of the time. Your toon was NEVER maxed out. There was always a resource that spawned that made something a tad bit better or something along those lines. You PvPed for fun, but the best PvPers put in the MOST TIME. That would be my main gripe about what is happening. They are removing the grind and making it easier to obtain end game gear.

 

In SWG terms, this would be equivalent of putting out blue frogs a year after release and telling them that they can access it, but only after they spent all of their skill points. Meanwhile, you have people that actually had to harvest for months, if not years to craft the stuff...Think that is fair?

 

I am suggesting that the majority of the people that argue with me, are wanting a even playing field for pvp. I am saying, go play a fps, a rts, or Guild Wars for that matter. Not a mmo. I don't want this game to crash and burn because casual players wanted to PvP, lmao.

 

All this garbage about equal footing... So, you don't play half the time as me, and want the same gear as me? What?

[jitsuo]

All this garbage about equal footing... So, you don't play half the time as me, and want the same gear as me? What?

 

This x100000

[MartyrLXXVII]

This x100000

 

So you have no life and can play non-stop every day? Oh sorry...

 

On point, I think demanding thing easy is stupid too. But just because you play more doesn't mean you should have a stat advantage in pvp.

 

You want to beat me in pvp, do it with skill not gear.

 

You want some progression to show how awesome you are at pvp, fine have all the progression BW or any other developer wants to make... But no stats.

 

Stat tiers are for pve, not pvp.