Today I felt the Trauma

[Frostbyt]

Working as intended. You can still out heal 1 dps easily, as long as you're healing someone else. When you get focused you should die because you're getting stunned and interrupted.

 

But really on my server I've never seen a good healer die by just one person . If there's a group of people around, there's no reason you should die unless at least two people are focusing on you.

[Kulthiron]

Exactly, back2back2back crits happen, and to our own minds, thay happen sufficiently, but in truth they really don't, at least relatively. As humans, we tend to recall the best times and the worst times, and nothing in between...for every back2back2back 11k crit heal/dps chain you did, you probably did 10 non-crits in row, so gibs happen, but that's the nature of /random.

 

As a Watchman Sentinel, against good healers, who kite like mofos, and run around pillar-humping, it can take me anywhere between 30s to NEVER to kill them. 30s is when it's just me chasing them the whole time. Now never usually means they are guarded or are being healed by someone else.

 

That's the best and worst part about being a healer...you need to have a group - and you make the group better(assuming the group is competent), but without support, the healer can be heavily disrupted.

 

I know it's been tough to adjust from WoW where the stupidest healer could beat the best DPS, by virtue of the game design, but in this game it makes it so that if a group protects their healer(s), they have a higher chance of winning.

 

And not to be condescending, and I really mean it, but almost everyone thinks they are good or pretty decent, but there will always be someone better, and may times, it just so happens that better person got the better of you, or maybe his cooldowns are up and yours weren't. In an MMO, PvP, you are supposed to die. Going 59-0 is not necessarily a testament to how good oneself is, but can also be a testament to how crappy the other team is. There are so many variables people forget to take into account like what cooldowns are up or used. maybe the guy had all his cooldowns up, and your bubble wasn't or you had used your force wave earlier, or the guy beating on you got full resolved by some moron Vanguard who grappled and stunned right away.

 

Though, I agree, in PvP, Sages are probably the least durable of the three healer ACs because most of their heals require standing still, but they make up in it for higher kiting and mobility. But a guarded sage is probably the more powerful of the three-once again, the group magnification issue.

 

In truth they do though, with crit chances around 40% critting is not something thet occasionally happens its every 2 or 3 abilitys, except DPS dont have a 30% debuff to it.

 

I honestly admitt today is the first time it struck me enough to bother going to a forum to express my concern, this has been an issue I have been noticing for quite some time but as people are gearing up it becomes easier to become aware of.

 

And its not random 30% healing debuff is as stable as it gets, along with Willpower not scaling with healing nearly as well as with damage.

 

You can say just pillar kite LoS, but when my tank is guarding the door I have to stop and top him/her off, and with Charge/leap, AoE Mez snares invisibilty, push, statis/choke and mental damage.. just No that does not work whatsoever, if I ran off when anyone attacked me yeah sure I would be much more surviable but then I couldent support my team I.E of no worth to the current objective.

 

I only PvEd from TBC to Cata, I mainly PvPed in Daoc and Warhammeronline and quite extensivly, please drop the you are a wow kid tone its pretty annoying and fairly condescending.

 

In my primary example I was not bubbled, we were facing a full DPS set up from another guild and we had me a tank and 2 dps and they kept tearing through my people, myself and my guard included. We won at the end due to what I can only attribute to better communication and clever play since we were essentially outmatched the entire game.

 

Yes stastically after X amount of engaments or Z amount of Warzones you will die, thats not the issue at hand I am not asking to be a walking demigod capable og tanking 20 DPSers facerolling across the keyboard.

 

I am asking for a intelligent discussion on the need of Trauma with the game and DPS in its current state.

 

Anyways thanks for the responses from everyone quite a few intresting remarks and alot of food for thought, but I am heading off to sleep so wont be able to respond to anymore posts.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Kulthiron

[Chaosmagistrate]

In truth they do though, with crit chances around 40% critting is not something thet occasionally happens its every 2 or 3 abilitys, except DPS dont have a 30% debuff to it.

 

I honestly admitt today is the first time it struck me enough to bother going to a forum to express my concern, this has been an issue I have been noticing for quite some time but as people are gearing up it becomes easier to become aware of.

 

And its not random 30% healing debuff is as stable as it gets, along with Willpower not scaling with healing nearly as well as with damage.

 

You can say just pillar kite LoS, but when my tank is guarding the door I have to stop and top him/her off, and with Charge/leap, AoE Mez snares invisibilty, push, statis/choke and mental damage.. just No that does not work whatsoever, if I ran off when anyone attacked me yeah sure I would be much more surviable but then I couldent support my team I.E of no worth to the current objective.

 

I only PvEd from TBC to Cata, I mainly PvPed in Daoc and Warhammeronline and quite extensivly, please drop the you are a wow kid tone its pretty annoying and fairly condescending.

 

In my primary example I was not bubbled, we were facing a full DPS set up from another guild and we had me a tank and 2 dps and they kept tearing through my people, myself and my guard included. We won at the end due to what I can only attribute to better communication and clever play since we were essentially outmatched the entire game.

 

Yes stastically after X amount of engaments or Z amount of Warzones you will die, thats not the issue at hand I am not asking to be a walking demigod capable og tanking 20 DPSers facerolling across the keyboard.

 

I am asking for a intelligent discussion on the need of Trauma with the game and DPS in its current state.

 

Anyways thanks for the responses from everyone quite a few intresting remarks and alot of food for thought, but I am heading off to sleep so wont be able to respond to anymore posts.

 

Internet creds mean nothing. I don't post mine, because in the long run, either noone cares, or they actually mean nothing. But, as an example, I PvPed extensively in S1, S2, Vanilla for GM teams, and I got my statue in WAR a few times. I don't need to go spouting off my arena ratings, but suffice to say, they were sufficient, especially as they were from S1 and S2.

 

As for you have to heal the tank...well, the way you are describing it is a 2v2(or more)...If a Mara(hard counter) is on you, and another class is hurting your tank...YES, you and your tank have to make some choices.

 

If Vanguard tank...Jet charge and start peeling the DPS off you, the DPS on him will walk over, get LOSed, or if stupid-Force Leap. Now with Guard and Taunt on you, the DPS are forced to switch for 6s or waste potential DPS, especially burst.

 

If Guardian tank...G-Leap for extra damage mitigation, push the guy on you away for separation. This forces both DPS to be away from you and your G-tank. This means, they either have to walk or Leap back into play, which allows you to F-wave, if needed thus burning their closer, which leads into Guard and Taunt.

 

If Shadow tank...pull to get both DPS beside him, slow one and apply pressure on the other. They will try to get back to you, then Guard and Taunt, once again forcing them to either waste DPS or switch, once again giving you breathing space.

 

I mean there is going to be other factors involved like pillars/ramps, the DPS's other CC, but from the way you are phrasing your posts, I am inferring that you feel that a tank+healer combo should be able to defeat two DPS readily, which in WoW was the case, but in TOR it isn't. Instead, the tank+healer have to generate distance and separation to buy time, and to survive, thus tank+healer. In the long run, you might win or you might lose, but in the short term(anyting under a minute), survival is really easy.

 

Now if it's 2v3, then well, all you have a that point is holding out as long as possible.

 

TL:DR;

 

healer + dps vs two dps =/= healer + dps auto win.

healer + tank vs two dps =/= healer + tank autowin

healer vs one dps =/= healer autowin

 

In all three situations, at the bare minimum the healer team should be able to hold out, if not outright win(healer + dps). yes the fight might take well over 30-50s, but that's entirely fine as it requires all the players to be playing reptty well and coordinated.

 

Now as for comps, there are better comps. Classic one healer/one tank/two dps is not the best comp, it probably is overall, but depending on what you fight, there can be better comps, especially if you take into account environment and group synergy. That's probably what I like about TOR is with the 4m premade, you really can't account for everything, unlike Arena, where it became a chess match-assuming no rating trading.

[Fylkras]

I am a little torn on this issue. I play a healer (Smuggler) and do very well IMO. I have a full heal build with not a single point in anything that benefits damage yet I consistently do fairly well on the damage charts. I feel that the use of interrupts, CC's, snares and healing is the best option all around.

 

I have found that thinking more along the lines of "taking care" of my target is more important that pure healing sometimes.

 

That being said, there is an issue with stat scaling that needs to be addressed. As with most games the ideal is to create DPS with as much burst as possible in order to keep them from healing through it. More so now with the silly nerf on DoTs. When this is mixed with the target bieng the healers (most likely the squishiest) then you have a problem as these numbers scale.

 

The OP has a valid point. Does it require some massive nerf or boost, no. Should some fine tuning go into that area of the game, IMO, yes.

[Bluetickone]

My commando Gunnery can load a 13-14k triple crit in 3 seconds...

Since when should healing be lower then DPSing?

What is the point to being healer if you can't keep anyone alive throught even one DPS...

 

+ that 11k heals can be interrupted and use a 21 seconds CD to do so.

 

A good DPS can always take down a good healer. The only thing that can actually save the healer is LoS. And that won't save him/her from a Sentinel/Juggernaut in watchman/rage spec or Powertech/Vanguard in Rail shot/High impact reset spec.

Because they are not affected by LoS since they never cast.

 

Agree, and to make matters worse, the commando healer can only do this one time every minute with tech override, whereas gunnery can do it every time demo round is off cd.

 

8 mans of pure dps with the ability to communicate and call out targets is, imo, the best team build. There is something wrong with that and will have to be sorted in rated wzs. that said, I think you'll see a lot of hybrid sorc teams in rated wzs....lol

 

Also, people vastly overstate how important los is for healers. Every time you los you: (A) probably also los your own healers, (B) prevent yourself from healing. Only real difference between good/bad healers is dps'ing/cc'ing where appropriate, avoiding interrupts, proper rotations and cd use, and anticipating burst/focus on targets.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Bluetickone

[pathiss]

You should experience interrupts.

 

Exactly. A good dpser will destroy a cloth healer if they know how to use interrupts. Even if the healer is being guarded, cycling interrupts and CC can take them out of the fight easily enough.

 

The fact that cloth healers are extremely weak in survivability will come to light once rated matches start. It is the entire reason I rerolled a heavy armor healer. Sure I heal for slightly less, but I can face tank quite well. Dead healers dont heal ****.

[Grooven]

I have to say I disagree that healing is weak. I play sage and I find that I can survive one on one against pretty much any class, however if two or more people are on me I will eventually die, which is as it should be. I also find that even if I am being focused heavily I will be at or near the top of the charts output wise. In an active voidstar that goes full length I will often break 600K healing done (even 700K the odd time) and have broken 800K in total output (healing + damage). I have never seen a dps post this type of output. While this obviously doesn't tell the whole story it does indicate (at least to me) that healing is at least balanced with DPS if not a bit overpowered.

[MrSteak]

If you're guarded and you're still getting destroyed by one guy, either he is just plain god, or your tank is a failure and needs to learn to taunt.

 

Seriously, guarding reduces the damage you take by 50%. A taunt reduces that by another 30%. That's basically the equivalent of someone running up to you and peeing themselves. That's how threatening their damage output should be. Yes, getting focus fired still happens and it still sucks, and it can even kill you through a guard if there are enough of them and taunts run out. But if it's just you and the tank against a whole team, your job is no longer to win, it's to make an epic stand while the other 6 on your team are elsewhere accomplishing objectives.

 

Had a healer (merc) today that was surrounded by 4 melees and had 1 ranged who I think was healing. Looked like he was at about 20% health, i.e. very dead, but I was able to throw up the guard and AOE taunt the melees, which gave him enough damage reduction to heal himself up to 100% and we were able to hold out long enough for our team to show up and clean them out.

 

What I'm saying here is that I don't think there's a problem with your healing or the damage you're taking on your own. I think it's a problem with whoever's not tanking properly.

[Bluetickone]

I have to say I disagree that healing is weak. I play sage and I find that I can survive one on one against pretty much any class, however if two or more people are on me I will eventually die, which is as it should be. I also find that even if I am being focused heavily I will be at or near the top of the charts output wise. In an active voidstar that goes full length I will often break 600K healing done (even 700K the odd time) and have broken 800K in total output (healing + damage). I have never seen a dps post this type of output. While this obviously doesn't tell the whole story it does indicate (at least to me) that healing is at least balanced with DPS if not a bit overpowered.

 

go do some forum searchs...multiple posts of 1.1m plus dps output. Youre not even covering half what good dps can do.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Bluetickone

[pathiss]

I have to say I disagree that healing is weak. I play sage and I find that I can survive one on one against pretty much any class, however if two or more people are on me I will eventually die, which is as it should be.

 

You don't have the tools to survive a maurader that knows how to play. I do agree that you can stay alive indefinitely against people that either dont interrupt or interrupt the wrong spells. The better dps aren'it interrupting your channel in the classic sense, they are using a knockback/pull ability on that and saving the interrupt/lockout for a castable. You wont keep yourself alive even standing in a puddle when those two heals get taken away from you.

[Arkerus]

If you have a tank with guard activated, you are practically invincible.

 

However, you can still heal effectively through one DPS but you will eventually die if you don't have a tank.

 

Working as intended.

 

Healers are not supposed to be unstoppable healing machines like they were in "that other game".

 

Players have to "die" for PvP to be enjoyable and competitive. If they don't it becomes a 4 healer snooze fest where no one ever gets killed.

[pathiss]

.

 

Had a healer (merc) today that was surrounded by 4 melees and had 1 ranged who I think was healing. Looked like he was at about 20% health, i.e. very dead, but I was able to throw up the guard and AOE taunt the melees, which gave him enough damage reduction to heal himself up to 100% and we were able to hold out long enough for our team to show up and clean them out.

 

What I'm saying here is that I don't think there's a problem with your healing or the damage you're taking on your own. I think it's a problem with whoever's not tanking properly.

 

A merc is infinitely easier to guard than a sorc. Trust me on that, its the whole reason I rerolled a merc. I do agree with you that a single dps cant kill even a sorc healer through guard nor should they, considering it is a 2 v 1 then. However, depending on the class ...they can still shut down that healer quite effectively by interrupting/ccing key spells.

[alanisUDL]

You don't have the tools to survive a maurader that knows how to play. I do agree that you can stay alive indefinitely against people that either dont interrupt or interrupt the wrong spells. The better dps aren'it interrupting your channel in the classic sense, they are using a knockback/pull ability on that and saving the interrupt/lockout for a castable. You wont keep yourself alive even standing in a puddle when those two heals get taken away from you.

 

Pretty much this. I have both a Sorc healer and Concealment Operative that are BM. On my operative, if the healer doesn't have a guard, he is going to die, even just by myself. The RNG of whether I crit, and what CDs the Healer has available will determine if it is a quick gib, or one that will cause him to only be able to heal himself for 15-20s before dying.

 

On my Sorc, if I have guard I am almost unkillable. Without Guard, similar geared Marauders and Operatives will be able to kill me, and how long I last just depends on my cooldowns.

[pathiss]

However, you can still heal effectively through one DPS but you will eventually die if you don't have a tank.

 

 

This is true for mercs, but not for sorcerers. A sorcerer cant stand up to a dps that has half a brain and interrupts. They dont have the survival tools that DPS sorcs do, and are actually probably the squishiest class/spec combo in the game. I can face tank any single dps indefinintely on my merc though when I am heal specced.

[Draeb]

I can agree with this, not because I'm a healer I'm actually the opposite. I seek out looking for healers as an assassin and Sage's or Sorc's they all take a bit of time to kill but, not too much time. However when it comes to Mercs, impossible atm for my lvl 27 'sin.

 

 

They should either boost the Sage's or Sorc's or bring Mercs in line with the rest.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Agree, and to make matters worse, the commando healer can only do this one time every minute with tech override, whereas gunnery can do it every time demo round is off cd.

 

8 mans of pure dps with the ability to communicate and call out targets is, imo, the best team build. There is something wrong with that and will have to be sorted in rated wzs. that said, I think you'll see a lot of hybrid sorc teams in rated wzs....lol

 

Also, people vastly overstate how important los is for healers. Every time you los you: (A) probably also los your own healers, (B) prevent yourself from healing. Only real difference between good/bad healers is dps'ing/cc'ing where appropriate, avoiding interrupts, proper rotations and cd use, and anticipating burst/focus on targets.

 

On a flat surface, 8 DPS might be the best, but that's not the case. Anything past 2.5 healers, preferably 2, is pointless as the fight just gets dragged out...but 8 DPS, no matter how coordinated, will get separated, and without heals will slowly whittle down. Unless you can get something like 8 Focus Guardians, jump implode, jump implode, jump, which with vent lag, piss poor targeting system, knockbacks, AoEs, immobilizes, slows, the other team can outlast.

 

And Hybrid Sorcs are arguable the most versatile of all the AC/specs. They provide large amounts of CC, good damage, and great overall flexibility in terms of positioning and sporadic heals. I've never called for a direct nerf to them, but I'd prefer if some of their CC had like an extra 50 resolve, especially the Hybrid specs, not the heal specs.

[FINALBOSS]

Last night in a WZ, I was beating on a guarded Sage for literally the entire game (I'm a Marauder). Interrupted everything, threw down my healing debuff, and I was only able to kill him once. Was fun inflating my stats though.

 

Either way, I took him out of the entire game. He was too worried about me to be able to heal any of his teammates.

[Scoobings]

Can you tell me what your friend's spec is? Because I have never crit for 5k with a railshot. Especially on a battlemaster.

 

You're at least a champion right? Or else this post would be silly.

[Halefthaut]

Its just a downright disappointing experience playing a healing Sorc as of late

 

Stopped reading there

 

 

@OP: you suck

[Chaosmagistrate]

Last night in a WZ, I was beating on a guarded Sage for literally the entire game (I'm a Marauder). Interrupted everything, threw down my healing debuff, and I was only able to kill him once. Was fun inflating my stats though.

 

Either way, I took him out of the entire game. He was too worried about me to be able to heal any of his teammates.

 

That's easily the saddest part of my day as Watchman. Is to get my 75k medal on one guy.

[Hethroin]

Can you tell me what your friend's spec is? Because I have never crit for 5k with a railshot. Especially on a battlemaster.

 

31 Assault (Pyro) can get upwards of 5k against mostly-PVE-Geared targets.

 

My stats (with standard buffs):

 

420 ranged damage bonus

~30% crit (+15% with HIB, 4pc Eliminator)

73% crit damage

 

Popping power stim and power relic at the same time you can get 4.5k crits with HiB against soft high-valor targets.

 

Standard (non-stim) crits are closer to 3.5k and around 2.5k against heavier targets. Keep in mind that this is white damage and is affected by deflects and shielding, though the spec does allow it to penetrate 90% of the target's armor.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Hethroin

[Kulthiron]

Can you tell me what your friend's spec is? Because I have never crit for 5k with a railshot. Especially on a battlemaster.

 

You're at least a champion right? Or else this post would be silly.

 

Someone else posted it, his railshot ignores 90% of your armor talented and is also resetable.

 

Err I am full Battlemaster so no one is outgearing me per say and thats causing the percived imbalance.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Kulthiron