So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[Yutaa]

One single word: leaderboards

 

Apparently this word spells doom for everyone using your argument because no one has at any point in this thread even dropped a hint as to how leaderboards would not fill the role of enticement for PvPers. Leaderboards solves all your problems.

 

You hear that BW? Is seems like pretty universal agreement that Leaderboards fixes this mess.

 

And here is the answer:

"Oh wait so I spend 8 hours a day for 3 monthes and this stupid game still thinks I'm bad????!!!!! And somebody who just join it was able to beat me? Mom! Unsub me!"

Edited March 6, 2012 by Yutaa

[Laokoon]

Your lack of pvp experience is shown so brightly when you say something like this. Gear progression is actually kind of new in a competetive multiplayer environment.

 

Yeah, it has been said several times here, but I guess people need to keep hearing it.

 

To those of you who think gear progression is an old concept in competitive multiplayer games, could you please list the oldest game you can think of with gear progression in competitive multiplayer? Lets compare that to what games we can think of with competative multiplayer based on skill alone that came before it and see which is the "newer" idea.

[TetraCleric]

To be fair, WoW had pvp gear progression as far back as 2005. Thats 7 years, which is a pretty long time in the gaming industry.

[Yutaa]

To those of you who think gear progression is an old concept in competitive multiplayer games, could you please list the oldest game you can think of with gear progression in competitive multiplayer?

 

War?

Just kidding...

[Laokoon]

And here is the answer:

"Oh wait so I spend 8 hours a day for 3 monthes and this stupid game still thinks I'm bad????!!!!! And somebody who just join it was able to beat me? Mom! Unsub me!"

 

That is why every game that incorporates leader boards has stat tracking to take into account hings likes games played, not just win loss ratio.

 

Based on your argument, no one should be playing Halo ODST. Do you think people still play Halo ODST?

 

"Mom, I love this game, I need to keep XBL for ever, keep subbing me."

[Bovinity]

It makes me feel old to see people saying WoW is "old".

 

In many ways, WoW still feels like one of the new kids on the block to me. =(

[EternalFinality]

The actually fact you don't have to anything but target someone and press a button. If you had to aim there is some skill there. In mmo's you target and press button and hope the rolls go in your favor.

 

You cannot be serious. There are so many examples that blow away this trash definition I don't even need to list any.

 

To be fair, WoW had pvp gear progression as far back as 2005. Thats 7 years, which is a pretty long time in the gaming industry.

 

I've been playing multiplayer games since 1988. 7 years is not a long time at all.

[Blotter]

Yeah, it has been said several times here, but I guess people need to keep hearing it.

 

To those of you who think gear progression is an old concept in competitive multiplayer games, could you please list the oldest game you can think of with gear progression in competitive multiplayer? Lets compare that to what games we can think of with competative multiplayer based on skill alone that came before it and see which is the "newer" idea.

 

Exactly. I blame YouTube haha. Seriously. Every dipstick out there who thinks he's elite because he outgears almost everyone else runs to YouTube to post his pwnage video (not mention the hordes of kids who think they're posting pwnage videos but actually justplain stink). Then the class gets a prostate massage with the nerf bat. Watching POwertechs on YouTube survive and pwn 7 v 1 scenarios or post 650K dmg recently, I think it's a safe bet we know why BHs are getting their rectal exams very soon.

 

But the damage is done...it created a gaming culture where no longer did you have to prove your skill on a level playing field...no no...instead kill count and dmg/heals achieved on an uneven playing field lets some nerdy basement dwellers stroke their egos to assuage their low self-esteem. Sowhat do we get for it? Kids exploitig and cheating and hacking as much as possible because they've never been taught to actually value having skill or learn to have it. It's why we saw what happened with unintended mechanics on Ilum or people running aroudn killtrading to get to BM. Instead, they learned that gear = pwnage = pretending you have skill and nobody can claim otherwise because you just get to scream "scoreboard!" at them. It's pretty pitiful.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Blotter

[drduncan]

It makes me feel old to see people saying WoW is "old".

 

In many ways, WoW still feels like one of the new kids on the block to me. =(

 

me too... it has been encouraging at least on the realm my RL old friends and I are on in this game as far as the age of players go.

[TetraCleric]

I've been playing multiplayer games since 1988. 7 years is not a long time at all.

 

Of course it is. How long did you play those multiplayer games for? Do they even still have servers up?

 

I don't want to discredit any game you've played, or anything like that, but in the gaming world, 7 years is a long time.

[Crowleyz]

Why do you need advantages beyond skill in competitive PvP?

 

You can refer to my being a bad player all you want, doesn't insult me the slightest. But the constant strive for better equipment is still the main past-time of pretty much any MMO. I'm not saying that's the only fun to be had, because of course it isn't. But it is still a very important factor, and I don't see how they expect to benefit from removing that other than attempting to establish the game as a novelty, or a gimmick if you will.

 

Which might attract short-term fans, but long time customers? Doubt it. And disagree with me all you like, we'll see how long you last.

[drduncan]

You can refer to my being a bad player all you want, doesn't insult me the slightest. But the constant strive for better equipment is still the main past-time of pretty much any MMO. I'm not saying that's the only fun to be had, because of course it isn't. But it is still a very important factor, and I don't see how they expect to benefit from removing that other than attempting to establish the game as a novelty, or a gimmick if you will.

 

Which might attract short-term fans, but long time customers? Doubt it. And disagree with me all you like, we'll see how long you last.

 

Didn't you unsub and leave?

 

To address your point, you really have no grounds to make that statement since there were tons of games....kings in their day... that did not have a pvp grind. Just because it is in WoW do people make that asumption...especially if they have no knowledge or experience of pvp in earlier games that were just as successful in their time.

[Blotter]

All I see/imagine when some tool calls themselves a "hardcore" abotu one of these video games is Molly Shannon doing her Mary Katherine Gallagher character self-proclaiming herself a "SoopahStahhhh."

[Laokoon]

You can refer to my being a bad player all you want, doesn't insult me the slightest. But the constant strive for better equipment is still the main past-time of pretty much any MMO. I'm not saying that's the only fun to be had, because of course it isn't. But it is still a very important factor, and I don't see how they expect to benefit from removing that other than attempting to establish the game as a novelty, or a gimmick if you will.

 

Which might attract short-term fans, but long time customers? Doubt it. And disagree with me all you like, we'll see how long you last.

 

You are correct. MMOs do need gear progression. But you are conflating PvE and PvP into one idea of an MMO. PvE in an MMO requires gear progression. PvP with gear progression 1) creates a gear gap that discourages new players from playing thus killing the game and 2) makes an unequal playing field that only appeals to people who do not want to have a contest of skill. Since a majority of people want a skill based competition not a gear based competition, this idea is not a great one.

[TetraCleric]

You can refer to my being a bad player all you want, doesn't insult me the slightest. But the constant strive for better equipment is still the main past-time of pretty much any MMO. I'm not saying that's the only fun to be had, because of course it isn't. But it is still a very important factor, and I don't see how they expect to benefit from removing that other than attempting to establish the game as a novelty, or a gimmick if you will.

 

Which might attract short-term fans, but long time customers? Doubt it. And disagree with me all you like, we'll see how long you last.

 

But you still have to put in time to get gear for PvP. It's not like gear is free. Sure, you don't need a specific rating, or Valor rank to get it, but you still have to put in time. It's also important to note that this tier is strictly for the pre-season. You have no idea how the progression will be handled in season one. You don't even have an idea of what gear will cost come 1.2.

 

To be competitive in ranked, you need BM gear, or at the very least Champion. Then you can progress to War Hero (or BM then WH). Season one will have new gear, so now you need to progress to get that.

 

I don't see why there needs to be a ranked progression, when ranked progression is about skill, not gear disparity.

[Nicain]

You are correct. MMOs do need gear progression. But you are conflating PvE and PvP into one idea of an MMO. PvE in an MMO requires gear progression. PvP with gear progression 1) creates a gear gap that discourages new players from playing thus killing the game and 2) makes an unequal playing field that only appeals to people who do not want to have a contest of skill. Since a majority of people want a skill based competition not a gear based competition, this idea is not a great one.

 

So it's ok for gear progression in PVE, so you can use the gear to not die to MOBs, but gear progression in PVP shouldn't exists because you don't want to die to players.

 

Oh, ok I understand completely now.....

[Laokoon]

So it's ok for gear progression in PVE, so you can use the gear to not die to MOBs, but gear progression in PVP shouldn't exists because you don't want to die to players.

 

Oh, ok I understand completely now.....

 

Thank you so much for choosing to misread what I wrote!

 

Let me give it a try, tell me how I do? So you're saying that you are so unskilled at PvP that you have to have a gear advantage to even have a chance at playing and by playing on an even playing field in a competition of pure skill you would just rage quit because you can't handle it?

 

How did I do?

 

Edit: Please excuse the snark. Nicain chose to use a "straw-man argument" which is a logical no-no and really annoyed me, so I decided to play his game a use the same method. I should have risen above him rather than stoop to his level.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Laokoon

[Crowleyz]

It's also important to note that this tier is strictly for the pre-season. You have no idea how the progression will be handled in season one.

 

I completely agree with this, though the knowledge that all my current efforts being useless is not an encouraging one. Especially not one that will keep me around for the months until the proper season starts, whatever their plans are for it. If they continue on the trend they have currently started however(and I suspect they will), a big part of the reason for me is gone. Other might disagree with me, and that is ok. Though no matter how vigiliant you are in defending this system at the moment, I am quite sure that for a good 75%-90% of you this realization will also come, in time. Until then, I hope you enjoy yourself. I really do, no sarcasm intended. I like this game, it's fun to play and all that, but removing such an essential part of the game(to me at least) is not a good move at all.

 

People need something to work for, something to strive towards, other than just bragging rights. Believe it or not, there are certain individuals who genuinely do not care about such things.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Crowleyz

[tuxiewuxie]

so reading through this thread, the mentality of most of the "skilled" ungeared players here is that gear progression is ok for raiding, but not for pvp? LoL, it is too common in this game, self proclaimed "skillful" players owning noobs in 10-49 wz but once they hit 50 warzones and ilum, their lack of skill was exposed and they blamed pvp gear for ALL their losses and quit pvp and reroll alts. truth hurts.

[Zombifikation]

Root of your problem - You're speaking as if gear is the point of the game.

 

In fact, it's mostly what's wrong with these games.

 

Fun with your friends, or fun on your own (a new concept to the genre, but now valid) is the point of these games.

 

Not having fun - don't play. Want to be measured? Use the ranking system to feel that boost of e-peeny goodness. That's your achievement. I'm not one of those "the gear gap was impossible" people, but it's not like you need a greater advantage for already being better? That's the "elitist" community in these games coming out in the design, and I, for one, am glad it's dying.

 

If some FPS kid wants to come in and beat me, let him. I'll either school him in a whole new type of game, or bow to him respectfully when he wins. I don't need an advantage for having more playtime. Your brain is your advantage.

 

Well said. Real pvpers do it for the prestige, not the color and composition of some ****** pixels. Do all "Hardcore" players have to be elitist too?

[Amien]

The point of giving all of us access to the really nice gear, is so realistically we can all be on equal footing gear wise! Sure, the hardcores will still faceroll us because they are super good, but we at least will now stand a fighting chance

[Nicain]

so reading through this thread, the mentality of most of the "skilled" ungeared players here is that gear progression is ok for raiding, but not for pvp? LoL, it is too common in this game, self proclaimed "skillful" players owning noobs in 10-49 wz but once they hit 50 warzones and ilum, their lack of skill was exposed and they blamed pvp gear for ALL their losses and quit pvp and reroll alts. truth hurts.

 

 

This is it in a nutshell.

[Crowleyz]

Well if you people think minimal effort for good equipment will keep you involved in an MMO for a longer period of time, go ahead and try it. I guarantee you that without other things than bragging rights to stribe towards, you will get bored a lot faster than you expect.

[MMornard]

This is when people stop taking you seriously.

 

You mean because of the miserable English, right?

[MMornard]

I'm starting to see a patten in different people's replies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People, think for a moment. Do you only think of something as an achievement based on how many other people have it?

 

You know how much work or effort you put into it. Is that not enough? Or do you feel the need to lord it over others? That you feel others must be punished or put in as much "work" as you to achieve it?

 

Do a little introspection, because that's just sad. You're not playing for fun, you're playing for status. Once you identify this you can see why the rest of us who play for fun are on a different wavelength than you.

 

Well said.