So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[Tenryou]

There are more than one definition to hard core from urban dicitonary:

 

hard core

having an intense (often excessive) interest in or enthusiasm for some particular activity, pastime or hobby

 

Mine was actually from Webster's but yeah that is also another. But it doesn't really strike me as relevant considering the amount of "I quit /unsub because of such and such" people I see on the boards. If we use that definition, a "true" hardcore pvper is someone who pvps for the thrill of pvp. Not someone who pvps for gear. Should there be an incentive? Hell yeah. Should that incentive be a reason you remain at the so-called "top of the heap?" No. True hardcore pvpers should WANT the field even so they can PROVE they're still the best. Gear progression in this game at the moment is just grinding, which is not hard or indicative of skill.

[TetraCleric]

I think we are missing the point of entire thread..

1. Is it fair that players who chose the route of PVP in this game have to be on the same playing field as someone who just started to PVP..in terms of gear??

2. You cannot have been PVP'ing all this time and expect to get invites to Nightmare mode based on your fresh LVL 50 gear...and they dont lower or equalize OPS for that?

3. So why should new PVP'ers be able to get a curve to be able to compete with others who have done nothing to PVP...

Read all the fresh 50 WZ QQ's..I just hit 50 and im dying so fast..Flip that to PVE..but they didnt do nothing to equalize that...

 

Gear isn't being handed out for free. You do realize this right? You still have to run a lot of warzones, normal or ranked, to be able to buy the gear in the first place.

 

And again, the whole point is competition.

[ohnam]

Lol wow

 

If what you say is true,(practice makes you better) then why do you also need a rocket launcher to shoot at the archer just because you are already more "practiced".

 

Because this game is truly based off stats. Its a mmo, do we actually aim at someone? No we tab target/click on them and press a button. The thing I practice is I find out what I can do to counter other people stats or roles.

 

I practice strategies and builds. I min/max, I experiment what I have to have or what skill I need to use to counter someone else's "rolls".

[Bantua]

Mine was actually from Webster's but yeah that is also another. But it doesn't really strike me as relevant considering the amount of "I quit /unsub because of such and such" people I see on the boards. If we use that definition, a "true" hardcore pvper is someone who pvps for the thrill of pvp. Not someone who pvps for gear. Should there be an incentive? Hell yeah. Should that incentive be a reason you remain at the so-called "top of the heap?" No. True hardcore pvpers should WANT the field even so they can PROVE they're still the best. Gear progression in this game at the moment is just grinding, which is not hard or indicative of skill.

 

LOL..Im out of analogies...Last one..You are top exec at your firm..worked Hard to get there..put in the hours..so kid who just Graduated yesterday just took the exact same position as you did..or did it in half the time...How do you feel? Same with this game. Fresh PVP'ers should not be afforded the gear and 3xValor update and should just work their way up like other b4 them...

[Yutaa]

Once you put enough hours into them its no fun. I like to make my toon better. In those other games as soon as I log off I have to start from scratch again.

 

False. Its still fun. And you are becoming better player when you play. And no unless you do some personal brainwash you didn't start from stratch.

 

Example - starcraft. I didn't start from "bronze" every time I login.

 

Single player games are no fun since the content is static and never changes while people strategies in mmo evolve over time.

 

Hm..chess. Is it static? Did chess strategies evovle over time? Do you still want that extra bishop?

 

Ok I got it, "fair play" conception is just not for you.

[ohnam]

Dice rolling constrained by player made choices.

 

The quality of those choices is a skill.

 

Skill is knowing when and where to roll the dice,

within the context of MMORPGs

 

..

 

o-o and Blood Bowl.

 

Skill is not 'Winning due to weighting RNG rolls in your favour'

rather, it is winning through decisions born of careful consideration and timely execution.

 

Again, within the context of this most MMORPGs

 

Very true but also I need to be able to have greater stats to beat scissors when I'm paper.

[Sinisterz]

 

 

 

"Hardcore" would be Battle Master on multiple toons in this game. Otherwise, you are only a casual player.

 

If you are endlessly running around on one toon, you are kind of missing the point. In a game like this one, "Hardcore" would be an expert at multiple pvp play styles.

 

 

 

Hardcore has nothing to do with multiple toons. If you are happy with the 1 character you enjoy why does it matter how many toons you have?

[ohnam]

False. Its still fun. And you are becoming better player when you play. And no unless you do some personal brainwash you didn't start from stratch.

 

Example - starcraft. I didn't start from "bronze" every time I login.

 

 

 

Hm..chess. Is it static? Did chess strategies evovle over time? Do you still want that extra bishop?

 

Ok I got it, "fair play" conception is just not for you.

 

There is no fair play when by default there is a rock, paper, scissors design. Class imbalance from the designers can only be overcome by stats.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ohnam

[TetraCleric]

Very true but also I need to be able to have greater stats to beat scissors when I'm paper.

 

The entire point of rock, paper, scissors paradigms in MMO's is that paper is not supposed to beat scissors due to gear. Paper beats scissors due to skill, or not at all. Maximize on your opponents mistakes, or you don't beat them.

 

That said, a discussion on the legitimacy of RPS in a competitive PvP environment is for another thread.

[Scudmungus]

Very true but also I need to be able to have greater stats to beat scissors when I'm paper.

 

Perhaps we should let our rock take scissors while we go for their rock or keep their paper busy?

 

I realise you want an edge.

 

And unless that edge is born from our skills as players,

then we cannot make claims of skills - and winning becomes

something less - drinks all round, buy two for the gear as thanks.

 

If we want to take scissors, we need to play better than scissors.

 

If we play our best and scissors plays to a magically-equatable equal,

then hey, we chose paper, they chose scissors - lets go wail on rock.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Scudmungus

[Beyaco]

From Wikipedia: "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"

 

If you would re-read my post that you originally replied to which prompted my Pac-man comment, you will see that I emphasized a need of story and narrative for something to be an RPG. Your response is that there are different roles people play in PvP therefore it is a role-playing game. That is not sufficient. In Couter Strike, some people act as snipers, some act as zergers, some act as defenders, some set traps, some run around like a crazy person. Those are different play styles that people can choose, and based on your comment of, you would say that simply because you can anyone can play any role means you are not role playing.

 

How about this: how about you provide what you believe the definition of a role-playing game is? I can't very well point out where I think you are incorrect if you never define the term we are discussing. Then we can see if 1) your definition makes sense 2) your definition applies to SWTOR and 3) your definition does not apply to games you would not consider to be RPGs. If your definition does all of those things, then it is an appropriate definition, otherwise it requires revision. Until then I will use your two points that I restate below as your definition.

 

Since you don't like my Pac-Man analogy this one should be perfect for you: Battlefield 1942 (The XBLA and PC multiplayer war game). There are 4 classes, each class has different abilities and different strengths. The entire game revolves around capturing objectives and killing opposing players. There is no narrative or story provided past a player's general knowledge of the actual History of the conflicts. Based on your above distinction of needing 1) Different roles and 2) Not everyone can fill the same role, Battlefield 1942 is a RPG. I would lay heavy money on the fact that 99% of gamers who are familiar with both Battlefield 1942 and RPGs would unequivocally say there is not even the slightest chance that that game is an RPG.

 

Edit: BTW, by your definition that I extrapolated above, until you actually state one, Football is an RPG because different players have different roles and the players are not interchangeable.

 

Right, so, therefore, SWTOR's wz's should be cookie cutter like madden, bf3 and your favorite, pac-man!

 

You suggested that swtor's wz's have as much to do with role-playing as pac-man...really?

 

What this boils down to, is if you agree with gear progression from PvPing. I say there should be progression just like the rest of the game.

[Yutaa]

There is no fair play when by default there is a rock, paper, scissors design. Class imbalance from the designers can only be overcome by stats.

 

Lets fix that.

Oh wait...no lets make it worse by "gear progression".

 

Hey friend do you want to join us? Spend 100+ hours leveling 100+ hours "gearing" and you are welcome bro! Where are you going???

[Darth_Sookie]

You must be one of those players that never played on the Tournament realm, which actually makes you semi-hardcore.

 

Most people who played tournament realm had more than earned their way. You think there were many fresh level 80s who seriously signed up for tournament play? If they did it was just to have the forum title. And as you said, it's even on servers separated from the game world. Not at all the same thing.

[drduncan]

There is no fair play when by default there is a rock, paper, scissors design. Class imbalance from the designers can only be overcome by stats.

 

Now I've heard everything.

 

So you are saying that because class balance isn't perfect that we should just let gear balance off the hook?

 

Also to the person above talking about wow.... go back there if you need better equipment to prove your "skill"

[TetraCleric]

Right, so, therefore, SWTOR's wz's should be cookie cutter like madden, bf3 and your favorite, pac-man!

 

You suggested that swtor's wz's have as much to do with role-playing as pac-man...really?

 

What this boils down to, is if you agree with gear progression from PvPing. I say there should be progression just like the rest of the game.

 

There is gear progression from PvPing. Just not from rateds, which are meant to be pure competitive PvP.

[Laokoon]

I think we are missing the point of entire thread..

1. Is it fair that players who chose the route of PVP in this game have to be on the same playing field as someone who just started to PVP..in terms of gear??

2. You cannot have been PVP'ing all this time and expect to get invites to Nightmare mode based on your fresh LVL 50 gear...and they dont lower or equalize OPS for that?

3. So why should new PVP'ers be able to get a curve to be able to compete with others who have done nothing to PVP...

Read all the fresh 50 WZ QQ's..I just hit 50 and im dying so fast..Flip that to PVE..but they didnt do nothing to equalize that...

 

1) Regarding Gear? Yes, it is fair. Regarding ranking? Absolutely not. People who have PvPed a long time should be better PvP players, better at their class and their skills in a match. They should be higher rated in a rating system and matched with people who have equal skills. Gear should not factor into this.

 

2) There is a fundamental difference between PvP and PvE that makes comparing the two based on gear a bad analogy. When it is a player versus another player, the fight should be and is almost always a competition of skill. When a player fights the environment, there is some skill involved (tactics actually come into play in Ops and some HM runs, but nowhere else in PvE) but it mostly a gear contest: is your gear high enough level for the content you are doing? Why do you want to apply the PvE mindset to PvP play? The two are two separate play styles, don't try to make them the same: they are different.

 

3) New PvPer certainly should not be able to get a curve to compete with others who have done nothing but PvP. You are correct there. People who have done nothing but PvP should be highly rated based on skill, have much better skills in battle than PvEers, and thusly get matched up against other PvPers who PvP alot based on similar rankings.

 

Would you rather be known as the MOST SKILLED PvPer on the server or as the MOST GEARED PvPer on the server? Gear is nice, I won't deny. Skill, however, is more respected. There is a difference.

[ohnam]

Lets fix that.

Oh wait...no lets make it worse by "gear progression".

 

Hey friend do you want to join us? Spend 100+ hours leveling 100+ hours "gearing" and you are welcome bro! Where are you going???

 

We make them do it for end game raiding, why does it matter for pvp?

Edited March 6, 2012 by ohnam

[TetraCleric]

Most people who played tournament realm had more than earned their way. You think there were many fresh level 80s who seriously signed up for tournament play? If they did it was just to have the forum title. And as you said, it's even on servers separated from the game world. Not at all the same thing.

 

Of course it's the same thing. Rated PvP in WoW, on the servers, was casual. And will stay casual. It was a glorified practice "realm" for tournament play. Tournament play took place with 0 gear disparity because it was supposed to be competitive. That is the approach Bioware wants to take.

 

You just want the e-peen, without ever having to actually go up against people that will wipe the floor with you.

[Yutaa]

We do it for pve, why does it matter for pvp?

 

You mean I can do some competitive PVP without spending 100+ hours leveling and 100+ hours gearing? You are right!!! I can do that...in GW2.

 

But not in SWTOR.

[EternalFinality]

We make them do it for end game raiding, why does it matter for pvp?

 

Because PvE and PvP are completely different. Or they should be. Some games can't seem to figure it out.

Edited March 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[ohnam]

1) Regarding Gear? Yes, it is fair. Regarding ranking? Absolutely not. People who have PvPed a long time should be better PvP players, better at their class and their skills in a match. They should be higher rated in a rating system and matched with people who have equal skills. Gear should not factor into this.

 

2) There is a fundamental difference between PvP and PvE that makes comparing the two based on gear a bad analogy. When it is a player versus another player, the fight should be and is almost always a competition of skill. When a player fights the environment, there is some skill involved (tactics actually come into play in Ops and some HM runs, but nowhere else in PvE) but it mostly a gear contest: is your gear high enough level for the content you are doing? Why do you want to apply the PvE mindset to PvP play? The two are two separate play styles, don't try to make them the same: they are different.

 

3) New PvPer certainly should not be able to get a curve to compete with others who have done nothing but PvP. You are correct there. People who have done nothing but PvP should be highly rated based on skill, have much better skills in battle than PvEers, and thusly get matched up against other PvPers who PvP alot based on similar rankings.

 

Would you rather be known as the MOST SKILLED PvPer on the server or as the MOST GEARED PvPer on the server? Gear is nice, I won't deny. Skill, however, is more respected. There is a difference.

 

How do we quantify skill in mmo's when its all dice rolls and rock paper scissors? Certain players will be stronger just from the sheer fact that choice this ac at level 10 and another person chose another ac. If they are of equal gear and skill the person who chose the right class in this encounter wins.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ohnam

[TetraCleric]

I PvP to fight against a challenging dynamic player, not static AI. But, I can't reliably beat the challenging dynamic player, so I need a crutch to assist me.

 

That's all I keep seeing from people that "need" gear progression from rateds.

[TetraCleric]

How do we quantify skill in mmo's when its all dice rolls and rock paper scissors? Certain players will be stronger just from the sheer fact that choice this ac at level 10 and another person chose another ac. If they are of equal gear and skill the person who chose the right class in this encounter wins.

 

Oh so you do understand the design philosophy of a RPS based class system.

[ohnam]

I PvP to fight against a challenging dynamic player, not static AI. But, I can't reliably beat the challenging dynamic player, so I need a crutch to assist me.

 

That's all I keep seeing from people that "need" gear progression from rateds.

 

I don't need a crutch but I need progression if i want to play a mmo. Why are we changing how mmo's work? I don't care if its gear or new abilities I want new toys to play with. Thats how d&d worked and mmo's are digital copies of d&d.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ohnam

[EternalFinality]

How do we quantify skill in mmo's when its all dice rolls and rock paper scissors?

 

Knowing who to target, when to target them, what abilities to use at the right time, when to run, when to focus, when to fight to the death, when to make a run on the objectives, which objectives to prioritize.

 

Skill. None of that is related to your gear.