Guild Summit: Mac users better really want it...

[Morthis]

It's not a race. No one has to win anything... there are already over 300 million iOS devices sold and in the hands of consumers.

 

That's far, far too big of a market for software developers to ignore - any of them.

 

And you know what all of these developers are doing? Specifically the game developers? They're creating games. Without Direct X. Without dev kits from Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft. They have a larger potential audience than all of them.

 

And do you know where these games can ALSO run? Mac OS X. Next-gen MMOs? iOS.

 

Except that games for phones are in an entirely different league than those for PC or Console, and always will be. This has basically nothing to do with games like SW:TOR, which are not designed, and will never be designed, for phones.

 

Apple is coming around the corner and the big players in the game industry aren't even aware of it.

 

Yeah man, the giant companies with an army of people paid specifically to figure this stuff out haven't seen it, but you the lone guy has figured it all out. Where would this world be without you?

 

As a side note, Google will never get it together... Android will always be a science experiment, not a consumer experience anywhere close to iOS.

 

This depends on what someone is looking for. I don't buy a phone for some sort of transcending experience, it's a friggin phone. The reason Google's Android is doing so well, despite starting so many years later, is because many users want freedom with their phones, which Android is willing to give them, unlike Apple where you're lucky you don't have to fill out 12 forms just to get the right to answer a phone call on your phone. Meanwhile instead of recognizing this, Jobs spent his time raging about the betrayal of Google.

 

It's funny that Apple first took off with a 1984 commercial and has since become the closest representation of an Orwellian universe in electronic gadgets.

 

But anyway, enough derailing, good luck with the Mac version for SW:TOR and all that.

[Lethality]

Except that games for phones are in an entirely different league than those for PC or Console, and always will be. This has basically nothing to do with games like SW:TOR, which are not designed, and will never be designed, for phones.

 

It has everything to do with games like SW:TOR. The next generation of games will be mobile and social, and need to run on hardware that is not a PC nor Windows. That destination is iOS and by proxy, Mac OS X.

 

You are thinking backwards, not looking forwards, just like all of also-ran competitors to Apple.

 

 

 

Yeah man, the giant companies with an army of people paid specifically to figure this stuff out haven't seen it, but you the lone guy has figured it all out. Where would this world be without you?

 

If you only knew half of the story.

 

 

 

 

 

This depends on what someone is looking for. I don't buy a phone for some sort of transcending experience, it's a friggin phone.

 

Take your head out of the sand, and don't be one of those ignorant consumers. Steve Ballmer once said the iPhone was "just a phone without a keyboard..." Brilliant, that sure set up Microsoft for the win! Demand more from your purchases, don't just settle like everyone has been for years. The revolution is absolutely upon us.

 

 

The reason Google's Android is doing so well, despite starting so many years later, is because many users want freedom with their phones, which Android is willing to give them, unlike Apple where you're lucky you don't have to fill out 12 forms just to get the right to answer a phone call on your phone. Meanwhile instead of recognizing this, Jobs spent his time raging about the betrayal of Google.

 

Android isn't doing well for any reason other than the same reason Kleenex is doing well. Google lacks a focused experience, there's a disparity among versions among devices, and are attracting only the Wal-Mart set or techs who are afraid of Apple because it weakens their job security.

 

I'm telling you now, the future is on the horizon and it isn't PC or Windows gaming.

[jedistreen]

To those of you who say "tell _____ to get a real computer" or "buy a PC if you want to play games" it's not that simple.

 

I'm an artist. I busted out a good chunk of money for my imac and another good chunk for the art programs I want to run on it. I also play SW:TOR on this thing.

 

reason being, I don't really want to shell out 600-1500 dollars for a gaming computer just so I can play a game. It will run on bootcamp (or parallels) just fine (on low settings) but it won't run anywhere near as well as it will on a PC. More and more people are using macs now, and optimizing it for one isn't exactly a poor investment.

 

Bottom line: some people only want one computer or don't have enough money to buy one for games. They also don't feel like getting an entire computer just to play one game is a good investment of time and money.

[ounkeo]

It's not a race. No one has to win anything... there are already over 300 million iOS devices sold and in the hands of consumers.

 

That's far, far too big of a market for software developers to ignore - any of them.

 

And you know what all of these developers are doing? Specifically the game developers? They're creating games. Without Direct X. Without dev kits from Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft. They have a larger potential audience than all of them.

 

And do you know where these games can ALSO run? Mac OS X. Next-gen MMOs? iOS.

 

Apple is coming around the corner and the big players in the game industry aren't even aware of it.

 

As a side note, Google will never get it together... Android will always be a science experiment, not a consumer experience anywhere close to iOS.

 

what you are suggesting is quite mind bogglingly out there. Mobile game dev and PC and even console development are completely different things. the subject being the same doesnt make it the same market or development the same.

 

Let me know how well you'll be plaing lotro or swtor on your ios devices when even the Mac can barely handle it. You are completely confusing different markets to support your own point that this is why game developers should support mac gaming.

 

I could explain it more but I won't simply because anyone who can't understand the difference isn't going to listen to reason; just as noone listened to reason when anandtech said the PC games better.

 

You're trying to argue that because Honda Civis sell in the multi millions that F1 Racing should support Honda Civic racing and let them drive with the F1 race cars.

 

Ok, while you play your mobile games thinking how awesome and sophisticated and epic it is, I'll continue to play games like SWTOR and LOTRO and Skyrim. The next vector of attack will be "Why won't devs create SWTOR for my iPad and iPod touch!! We're gamers tooooo...".

Edited March 8, 2012 by ounkeo

[RuQu]

what you are suggesting is quite mind bogglingly out there. Mobile game dev and PC and even console development are completely different things. the subject being the same doesnt make it the same market or development the same.

 

Let me know how well you'll be plaing lotro or swtor on your ios devices when even the Mac can barely handle it. You are completely confusing different markets to support your own point that this is why game developers should support mac gaming.

 

I could explain it more but I won't simply because anyone who can't understand the difference isn't going to listen to reason; just as noone listened to reason when anandtech said the PC games better.

 

You're trying to argue that because Honda Civis sell in the multi millions that F1 Racing should support Honda Civic racing and let them drive with the F1 race cars.

 

Ok, while you play your mobile games thinking how awesome and sophisticated and epic it is, I'll continue to play games like SWTOR and LOTRO and Skyrim. The next vector of attack will be "Why won't devs create SWTOR for my iPad and iPod touch!! We're gamers tooooo...".

 

The fact that he is irrationally pro-Mac doesn't make the case that the opposite stupidly extreme position is correct. No, the next Blizzard MMO wont be for the iPad, but your claims of people demanding iPhone versions or Macs struggling with current games are just as laughably incorrect.

 

I have never encountered a problem with any game playing via Boot Camp on a Mac, so the hardware does just fine. It is entirely a lack of OSX support on the part of the Developers.

 

I play SWTOR with all of the settings max and get 60fps+, and when they release the high rez textures in Patch 1.2, I will turn those on as well, and my Mac will do just fine...and its a laptop.

[ounkeo]

To those of you who say "tell _____ to get a real computer" or "buy a PC if you want to play games" it's not that simple.

 

I'm an artist. I busted out a good chunk of money for my imac and another good chunk for the art programs I want to run on it. I also play SW:TOR on this thing.

 

reason being, I don't really want to shell out 600-1500 dollars for a gaming computer just so I can play a game. It will run on bootcamp (or parallels) just fine (on low settings) but it won't run anywhere near as well as it will on a PC. More and more people are using macs now, and optimizing it for one isn't exactly a poor investment.

 

Bottom line: some people only want one computer or don't have enough money to buy one for games. They also don't feel like getting an entire computer just to play one game is a good investment of time and money.

 

I hear what you are saying but it's hard to sympathise simply because when you make a purchase you weighed the pros and cons of what you could and could not do with it and went with the more expensive option.

 

PC's are just as capable of art and design as the Macs. The programs are the same and available to both excdept for more specific programs, which you could probably find an equivlent of either way.

 

You wouldn't buy a vespa and expect it to participate in motocross anymore than you should be buying a mac expecting it to play games.

[Lethality]

what you are suggesting is quite mind bogglingly out there. Mobile game dev and PC and even console development are completely different things. the subject being the same doesnt make it the same market or development the same.

 

Let me know how well you'll be plaing lotro or swtor on your ios devices when even the Mac can barely handle it. You are completely confusing different markets to support your own point that this is why game developers should support mac gaming.

 

I could explain it more but I won't simply because anyone who can't understand the difference isn't going to listen to reason; just as noone listened to reason when anandtech said the PC games better.

 

You're trying to argue that because Honda Civis sell in the multi millions that F1 Racing should support Honda Civic racing and let them drive with the F1 race cars.

 

Ok, while you play your mobile games thinking how awesome and sophisticated and epic it is, I'll continue to play games like SWTOR and LOTRO and Skyrim. The next vector of attack will be "Why won't devs create SWTOR for my iPad and iPod touch!! We're gamers tooooo...".

 

You simply don't even understand what I am saying. Forget what you think you know about games, and development and user interface/ux... it's all changing.

 

There are so many iOS devices out there, that are not only attracting existing software developers but creating new ones, the snowball effect is happening in reverse. The iOS is a subset of Mac OS X. These developers all now have the capability and the code base to deploy on Mac OS X (which will carry a name similar to iOS in the future.)

 

Windows/desktop computing for gaming will never be the same. It doesn't mean that an iPad is the best user experience for playing an MMO, but a desktop Mac would be. And since said future developers will nearly certainly be supporting iOS, and have their code base, they will support the Mac OS... even more as a base than they will Windows... because the situation is reversed. They would have to "port" to Windows from iOS. It may sound crazy, but I'm telling you, the sea change is just over the horizon.

 

As a side note, Mac hardware can handle anything that game developers throw at it, if the games exist in the first place. Also the trend toward accessibility (just like compressed audio, compressed video) requires much less hardware resources to play it. You can count on the same tilt toward accessibility in gaming, not more of a tilt toward sky-high system requirements. The market for ultra-high end PC desktop games is diminishing, and will be an ultra-niche very soon. Developers want everyone's eyeballs, not just gamers. Believe me.

[Lethality]

I hear what you are saying but it's hard to sympathise simply because when you make a purchase you weighed the pros and cons of what you could and could not do with it and went with the more expensive option.

 

PC's are just as capable of art and design as the Macs. The programs are the same and available to both excdept for more specific programs, which you could probably find an equivlent of either way.

 

You wouldn't buy a vespa and expect it to participate in motocross anymore than you should be buying a mac expecting it to play games.

 

Well, the fact is my Mac plays ever game I've ever cared to play, natively. So naturally I expected that TOR would follow the position of market leader Blizzard and support my platform for choice as well. It actually makes LESS sense that they didn't, when you list out all of the facts, such as explosive growth in the Mac market and the aforementioned competitive set.

[Lethality]

The fact that he is irrationally pro-Mac

 

I'll just take that as a vote of support

[Wolfeisberg]

You simply don't even understand what I am saying. Forget what you think you know about games, and development and user interface/ux... it's all changing.

 

There are so many iOS devices out there, that are not only attracting existing software developers but creating new ones, the snowball effect is happening in reverse. The iOS is a subset of Mac OS X. These developers all now have the capability and the code base to deploy on Mac OS X (which will carry a name similar to iOS in the future.)

 

Windows/desktop computing for gaming will never be the same. It doesn't mean that an iPad is the best user experience for playing an MMO, but a desktop Mac would be. And since said future developers will nearly certainly be supporting iOS, and have their code base, they will support the Mac OS... even more as a base than they will Windows... because the situation is reversed. They would have to "port" to Windows from iOS. It may sound crazy, but I'm telling you, the sea change is just over the horizon.

 

As a side note, Mac hardware can handle anything that game developers throw at it, if the games exist in the first place. Also the trend toward accessibility (just like compressed audio, compressed video) requires much less hardware resources to play it. You can count on the same tilt toward accessibility in gaming, not more of a tilt toward sky-high system requirements. The market for ultra-high end PC desktop games is diminishing, and will be an ultra-niche very soon. Developers want everyone's eyeballs, not just gamers. Believe me.

 

Mac will never become a "gaming" machine for as long as it stays a closed system. When it comes to non casual games (Angry Birds, and the miriad of Ipad/Phone apps), the biggest amount of consumers tend to be gamers who upgrade their computers on a regular basis, and not buying new computers. Currently with Macs, they are basically throw away computers, and gamers do not want that, they want to be able to buy upgrades as wanted/needed without having to buy a whole new computer.

 

I don't doubt that casual games we see on Ipad/Phones are huge buisness, and that is why we see even developers like Bioware making games for those things as well, but they also didn't stop making games for consoles and the PC because there is still a huge market for that.

 

Gamers will never adopt a closed system for gaming, never, and Apple will need to change that if they ever want to be taken seriously for gaming.

 

What Apple needs to do is simply sell their operating system, just like how Windows sells their operating system. When they do that, then I have no doubt that Apples OS would be taken seriously and be a major competitor.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Wolfeisberg

[Toxen]

What Apple needs to do is simply sell their operating system, just like how Windows sells their operating system. When they do that, then I have no doubt that Apples OS would be taken seriously and be a major competitor.

 

They tried that once, and it REALLY did not work out well for them.

[Wolfeisberg]

They tried that once, and it REALLY did not work out well for them.

 

When did they try that? Cause everything is different now, especially for Apple, they have much more exposure and popularity now because of the Ipod, Ipad, Iphones. So I do believe they are in better shape to make their OS work on various hardware configurations, and actually be a worth while competitor to Windows if they sell the OS alone.

[Jett-Rinn]

They tried that once, and it REALLY did not work out well for them.

 

And if you listen to the rumors there is going to be a freeware version of windows in the not too distant future.

[Morthis]

There are so many iOS devices out there, that are not only attracting existing software developers but creating new ones, the snowball effect is happening in reverse. The iOS is a subset of Mac OS X. These developers all now have the capability and the code base to deploy on Mac OS X (which will carry a name similar to iOS in the future.)

 

Windows/desktop computing for gaming will never be the same. It doesn't mean that an iPad is the best user experience for playing an MMO, but a desktop Mac would be. And since said future developers will nearly certainly be supporting iOS, and have their code base, they will support the Mac OS... even more as a base than they will Windows... because the situation is reversed. They would have to "port" to Windows from iOS. It may sound crazy, but I'm telling you, the sea change is just over the horizon.

 

I'm guessing you have absolutely no idea how games development actually works, if you think there's any sort of overlap between programming for an Iphone and a desktop. There really isn't. The only overlap you could claim is the same overlap between all programming, basic programming knowledge and being able to turn a concept into logical code. Heck, they're entirely different fields. When a company looks for some senior programmer or the likes for their video game, they do not look for people who design games on a phone, they don't care, those people may have plenty of experience too, but none of it is relevant. The only overlap here is basic programming experience, nothing more.

 

You seem to be working under the impression that Mac iOS and OSX use entirely different programming languages than PC's do, which is completely not the case. The programming languages are the same. Libraries and API's used are different, but those are mostly system specific. Programming for a phone will not help you any further in that regard if you moved on to OSX. Even if iOS was the only operating system for phones, and the gaming market for it was huge, there would still be zero overlap between the two, and desktop games would keep being designed for Windows based machines, not Macs. The dream world you live in, where OSX will overtake Windows as the most popular PC platform for games just is not realistic. Apple makes absolutely no attempts to support gaming at all, so why on earth would games move there? Software wise, Macs are downright terrible for games development.

 

As a side note, Mac hardware can handle anything that game developers throw at it, if the games exist in the first place. Also the trend toward accessibility (just like compressed audio, compressed video) requires much less hardware resources to play it. You can count on the same tilt toward accessibility in gaming, not more of a tilt toward sky-high system requirements. The market for ultra-high end PC desktop games is diminishing, and will be an ultra-niche very soon. Developers want everyone's eyeballs, not just gamers. Believe me.

 

The hardware can, sure. The software can't, because Apple won't let it. Why would a developer bother developing for a platform that is held in an iron grip by a company that doesn't care one bit about accommodating gamers.

[Toxen]

When did they try that? Cause everything is different now, especially for Apple, they have much more exposure and popularity now because of the Ipod, Ipad, Iphones. So I do believe they are in better shape to make their OS work on various hardware configurations, and actually be a worth while competitor to Windows if they sell the OS alone.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone

Particularly the part about the "Official Macintosh clone program"

[Tool_of_Society]

Can you people stop pretending that macs are anything but a PC with a special chip on the mobo so it can run an unhacked OSX?

 

When Apple dumped the RISC architecture and went with standard Intel CPUs they lost all rights to claiming superior hardware.

 

 

EDIT : BTW there are actually quite a few mac viruses and worms out there. The dude that claimed there were no worms or viruses is utterly ignorant of reality. It cracks me up when someone brings a mac in for me to fix and they act all surprised when I find a virus on it.

 

 

AS for hardware I can build a system more reliable then a mac for a lower price with better performance. The resale value of a mac is questionable as I know of no mac user who has seen anywhere near the resale value as declared by the people here. Anyone willing to pay 70% of retail for a several year old Mac is an idiot paying for a name.

 

The only place where I cannot touch a mac is with their macbook air laptops and that's because you cannot build a laptop as easily as you can a desktop and frankly macbook airs are pretty damned well built.

 

AS for mac's growing market share it's much easier to see 60% increase in market share when your share is only 10% then if your share was already 85%...

 

 

As for me I had a triple boot setup which involved win7 linux and OSx for some time but I then realized I could do everything in linux or win7 that I could do in OSx so the novelty wore off pretty quickly. I have nothing against macs I just don't see the reason to spend so much to get so little. I have some clients that MACs work great for because of space issues or other requirements that are better met by Apple.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tool_of_Society

[Toxen]

And if you listen to the rumors there is going to be a freeware version of windows in the not too distant future.

 

I'm sure that will go over as well as the freeware version of MS Office. You know, the one with 1/10 of the features, only comes on oem units, and if you delete it or restore your system you can't download it or get back ever again and have to purchase the full version.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Toxen

[Lethality]

I'm guessing you have absolutely no idea how games development actually works, if you think there's any sort of overlap between programming for an Iphone and a desktop. There really isn't. The only overlap you could claim is the same overlap between all programming, basic programming knowledge and being able to turn a concept into logical code. Heck, they're entirely different fields. When a company looks for some senior programmer or the likes for their video game, they do not look for people who design games on a phone, they don't care, those people may have plenty of experience too, but none of it is relevant. The only overlap here is basic programming experience, nothing more.

 

You seem to be working under the impression that Mac iOS and OSX use entirely different programming languages than PC's do, which is completely not the case. The programming languages are the same. Libraries and API's used are different, but those are mostly system specific. Programming for a phone will not help you any further in that regard if you moved on to OSX. Even if iOS was the only operating system for phones, and the gaming market for it was huge, there would still be zero overlap between the two, and desktop games would keep being designed for Windows based machines, not Macs. The dream world you live in, where OSX will overtake Windows as the most popular PC platform for games just is not realistic. Apple makes absolutely no attempts to support gaming at all, so why on earth would games move there? Software wise, Macs are downright terrible for games development.

 

The development environment and tools are shared for iOS and Mac OS X. The iOS _is_ Mac OS X. Is this sinking in for you yet?

 

Game software developers who want to sell software to millions of new customers will move there. They shouldn't have to have support beginning from Apple. The golden goose is there for the plucking. And the Mac will be the beneficiary of it.

 

Friend, it is you who do not understand the lay of the land here.

[Lethality]

EDIT : BTW there are actually quite a few mac viruses and worms out there. The dude that claimed there were no worms or viruses is utterly ignorant of reality. It cracks me up when someone brings a mac in for me to fix and they act all surprised when I find a virus on it.

 

Bring it. Link the active viruses for the Mac.

 

Start now.

[Tool_of_Society]

Bring it. Link the active viruses for the Mac.

 

Start now.

Well the last problem I ran into was OSX.Iservic which made me facepalm because surely by now that shouldn't be possible. I didn't ask the dude how he got it but I did make sure to update his stuff because frankly he was WAAAAY behind on things. His mac didn't have internet access so I think he got it from installing some pirated programs.

 

What I've seen with Mac users is a similar problem I've seen with win7 users in that they get trained into clicking stuff without paying attention and they end up installing or authorizing a malevolent software package. The end result is something like the OSX/Flashback Trojan that has popped up occasionally.

 

 

EDIT : Did you see the bit about Macdefender hitting peru pretty hard?

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tool_of_Society

[Morthis]

The development environment and tools are shared for iOS and Mac OS X. The iOS _is_ Mac OS X. Is this sinking in for you yet?

 

Game software developers who want to sell software to millions of new customers will move there. They shouldn't have to have support beginning from Apple. The golden goose is there for the plucking. And the Mac will be the beneficiary of it.

 

Friend, it is you who do not understand the lay of the land here.

 

I don't know how anyone could claim developing for an Iphone is effectively the same as developing for a desktop using OSX. Night and day doesn't even begin to describe it. The only way I could see someone believing these two are at all related is incredibly levels of drinking Apple coolaid or just total and utter ignorance about software development. In your case, I think it may actually be both.

 

Just so we're clear, constantly repeating this is not going to make it any more real. You can keep embracing ignorance all you want, but sooner or later you're gonna have to realize your little dream world didn't come true.

[drmcnasty]

Get a pc? The gaming market for macs arnt exactly large...The resources to port it is not worth the effort, especially when there are options out there that work atm. If you bought a mac with the intention of playing games then you knew damn well you'd be purchasing bootcamp as well.

 

Regardless I still say get a damn pc as macs are overpriced garbage.

 

Macs are PC's dude.

 

 

OT: Just use WINE, apparently it works with this.

[ArkhamNative]

Mac will never become a "gaming" machine for as long as it stays a closed system. ... Gamers will never adopt a closed system for gaming, never, ....

 

Like the Xbox 360? or Playstation 3? There is no more closed system than consoles, and their games outsell Windows versions by over 10-to-1. DirectX is a closed API, too. The iPad has only been out 2 years and there are already about as many as either heavy console. Successful games sell in the millions on the iOS platform, attracting game developers by the thousands. Gamers don't hate closed systems at all.

[Tool_of_Society]

Like the Xbox 360? or Playstation 3? There is no more closed system than consoles, and their games outsell Windows versions by over 10-to-1. DirectX is a closed API, too. The iPad has only been out 2 years and there are already about as many as either heavy console. Successful games sell in the millions on the iOS platform, attracting game developers by the thousands. Gamers don't hate closed systems at all.

Uh probably because people buy an xbox or PS to uhhh play games?

 

Gaming is a loose definition in reality as angry birds and farmville can attest to.

[ArkhamNative]

I don't know how anyone could claim developing for an Iphone is effectively the same as developing for a desktop using OSX. ... You can keep embracing ignorance all you want, but sooner or later you're gonna have to realize your little dream world didn't come true.

 

As Lethality points out, Mac OS X and iOS are very closely related. Same language, same API, same underpinnings, same design patterns, ... Once you learn one, you are most of the way to knowing the other. And they also use the closely-related, and open, graphics API (OpenGL), sound API (OpenAL), etc.

 

You can already see the trend Lethality speaks of. For example: Angry Birds, available on Mac, of course, but what's telling is its Windows requirement: OpenGL 1.3 or later. Or Elder Sign: Omens: it launched on iPad, iPhone, Android, and Mac OS X -- no Windows version in sight.

 

And the iPad is continuing to grow. The new model next week surpasses maximum console resolution by over a million pixels, and will maintain that for probably 5-10 years. Last quarter Apple sold more iOS devices than the number of either Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 consoles sold, ever. Developers notice, gain expertise with iOS and OpenGL, and thus their DirectX chains are broken.

Edited March 8, 2012 by ArkhamNative