Guild Summit: Mac users better really want it...

[Lethality]

That would completely blow the "ubiquity of MS" argument out of the water. I hope 'sooner'.

 

It's already blown... other than the enterprise, Windows is facing a rough road... with the inroads Apple has made, not to mention Google...

 

Your days are numbered, PC gamers. Mark my words.

[astrocanis]

Okay here's the truth...

 

Mac users bought a status symbol. Period. End of discussion. You bought a logo.

 

A PC can do everything a Mac can do at a 1/3 of a price. You bought an over priced status symbol to make yourself feel good about who you are. The other 90% of us with PC's just laugh at you. Then you come on a gaming forum and whine about not having the game programmed in OSX for you? If you can waste that much money on a Mac, then you can afford to buy a Windows OEM license.

 

 

Hell, the Mac population is so small, even the Russians won't write viruses for them. That's why there are no viruses for Macs, there's no profit in it. Not that the operating system is so robust, it isn't. There's no profit in it, the amount of Macs out there is too small to make any money at it.

 

 

So... Feel good about you purchase. If you've got that much money to waste, you're doing well.

 

No, I didn't. I purchased capability and was, thankfully, able to afford it.

 

Most Windows users have the shades drawn. Tell you what, go play in a computer lab and see if you walk out with your "Windows Uber Alles" sunglasses intact. A bigger pain in the patoot has never been introduced. For all its "You don't need much admin on Windows" shtick, it takes more time for us to manage our Windows servers than any 10 of our Unix/Linux boxes. Which is why my entire company is going to Macs - not because they are necessarily better than Linux (which flavor, by the way? That's the problem with Linux.) but because we can STANDARDIZE on a superior O/S.

 

In our trials, again in the lab, trouble tickets were reduced by 65% when using Macs vs our Dells and Lenovos. SIXTY-FIVE PERCENT. That means the help desk could actually focus more on, I don't know, helping their customer base.

 

If you are going to be a fanboi, I would suggest doing it with something deserving of your trust. Not something you are merely "used to".

[macumba]

 

Your days are numbered, PC gamers. Mark my words.

 

why should someone "escape" microsoft just to run to the next best commercial OS.

I want swtor for linux !!

 

I really fail to see why people pay more money for the same hardware just to have an os that runs nothing. (except maybe blizzard games)

 

I think mac will return to where it came from (its little niche)

 

time will tell ;-)

[Kennkra]

Personal hand BUILD PC > MAC

 

You cant argue with that.

 

My pc is faster than any of your macs and probably it cost lest

 

8gb corsair vengance low timings (one of the best cuality RAM's out there)

asus z68 m8v (one of the best cuality Motherboards out there)

2x HD 6970 2gb CF (Reference VGA's tested by AMD with dual bios and 2gb vram)

Wester digital 2x 500gb caviar black HD's (same brand of macs)

Intel i5 2500k @ 4.5ghz @ 1.2v

 

Half my hardware are the same that apple uses for their macs. But mine cost half of what apple selling it.

 

And you know, WD and Intel dont make special HD's or CPUs for mac, they use exactly the same. So does NVIDIA, there are all build in 3rd party factorys. And all RMA's go backs to the factory to be refurbished and into a mac xD

[JustTed]

There is so much misinformation in this thread...

 

Here are some hard facts:

 

Malware

 

There are no Mac OS X viruses. There are a few trojans that work under Mac OS X running around, but they all require the user to be fairly stupid and not paying attention to even work. And even when they do, they can't do anything harmful to the OS.

 

Hard facts, huh? Macs sure have a lot of virus scanners available for a system totally immune (LOL) to viruses.

 

Mac fan boys are hilarious. Next tell me they don't crash either.

[justahdude]

you know you dont HAVE to use windows 7 for boot camp right?! and are you SERIOUSLY telling me as a mac user you dont know ANYONE who can help you set up a bootcamp partition so you can run SWTOR? Dont get me wrong i like mac i REALLY do. but there is a reason you bought a mac and not a pc. if you REALLY want to get Swtor to run on a mac without windows you can. there are numerous ways you can do it. it is NOT the developers responsibility to write software for another platform because lets be completely honest here. there is only one company that has the market for such a thing, and they didnt have a mac version right out of the door either. in fact it wasnt until they had 6 million plus subscribers that they really even thought about a mac version. swtor barely has 2 million subs.

 

so yeah in the mean time, you can shell out a couple of hundred for a OS like EVERYBODY else (the PC users dont get Windows for free either). you can stick it to the man and pirate it, or you can figure out how to make it work.

[Lethality]

you know you dont HAVE to use windows 7 for boot camp right?! and are you SERIOUSLY telling me as a mac user you dont know ANYONE who can help you set up a bootcamp partition so you can run SWTOR? Dont get me wrong i like mac i REALLY do. but there is a reason you bought a mac and not a pc. if you REALLY want to get Swtor to run on a mac without windows you can. there are numerous ways you can do it. it is NOT the developers responsibility to write software for another platform because lets be completely honest here. there is only one company that has the market for such a thing, and they didnt have a mac version right out of the door either. in fact it wasnt until they had 6 million plus subscribers that they really even thought about a mac version. swtor barely has 2 million subs.

 

so yeah in the mean time, you can shell out a couple of hundred for a OS like EVERYBODY else (the PC users dont get Windows for free either). you can stick it to the man and pirate it, or you can figure out how to make it work.

 

No one cares about TOR that much, hate to break it to you...

 

Also, Blizzard creates every title for the Mac.

 

WoW was released on the same day, on the same discs, in the same box as the Windows version.

 

Come back when you have something other than misinformation and defensive posture, because you know the Mac revolution is upon you.

[ChicksDigHarleys]

I'm quite certain they said way, way before release that they had no intentions of making a native Mac OS client for this game.

 

However, as the pop continues to drop, I'm sure they'll reconsider.

[Lethality]

I'm quite certain they said way, way before release that they had no intentions of making a native Mac OS client for this game.

 

However, as the pop continues to drop, I'm sure they'll reconsider.

 

They never, ever said that as you very well know.

 

And this is the recent news you need to pay attention to:

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/01/02/bioware-mac-version-of-star-wars-the-old-republic-is-something/

 

It's coming.

 

But yes, it should help the drop in subscribers significantly.

[ChicksDigHarleys]

They never, ever said that as you very well know.

 

And this is the recent news you need to pay attention to:

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/01/02/bioware-mac-version-of-star-wars-the-old-republic-is-something/

 

It's coming.

 

But yes, it should help the drop in subscribers significantly.

 

LOL devs have been saying they're looking into things that will never come to fruition since I've been playing MMOs.

 

Your sig is kind of pointless, since anyone that can show support for a Mac native version already bought the game, played it with bootcamp or w/e, and is a current subscriber...including you. BioWare will make a native Mac version if/when they determine it is profitable. It's pretty funny that you think you know how profitable a Mac version of this game will be better than EA/BW does. Do you think they haven't made one just to spite Mac users or something?

[Biytor]

No, I didn't. I purchased capability and was, thankfully, able to afford it.

 

Most Windows users have the shades drawn. Tell you what, go play in a computer lab and see if you walk out with your "Windows Uber Alles" sunglasses intact. A bigger pain in the patoot has never been introduced. For all its "You don't need much admin on Windows" shtick, it takes more time for us to manage our Windows servers than any 10 of our Unix/Linux boxes. Which is why my entire company is going to Macs - not because they are necessarily better than Linux (which flavor, by the way? That's the problem with Linux.) but because we can STANDARDIZE on a superior O/S.

 

In our trials, again in the lab, trouble tickets were reduced by 65% when using Macs vs our Dells and Lenovos. SIXTY-FIVE PERCENT. That means the help desk could actually focus more on, I don't know, helping their customer base.

 

If you are going to be a fanboi, I would suggest doing it with something deserving of your trust. Not something you are merely "used to".

 

 

Whoever said I was a fan of Windows? Oh yeah, that would be you...

 

Still does not address the fact that you are whining about the game not being programmed in OSX and the fact you overspent for a slick case and fancy logo. Then have to buy a Windows OEM license on top of your overprice computer.

 

BTW... 75% of those trouble tickets can be eliminated by training the end users in the proper operation of the system. IT people have the mindset that PC's are so common that everyone knows how to use them, while Macs require training to use properly.

[Gerandar]

Actually, the Mac does everything and more that a PC does.

 

It's all about the available software... if you're a fool and you want to spend $1200 on a computer for gaming when a $200 Xbox will work - get a PC. If you want a computer for what they were intended for PLUS some gaming... get a Mac. Period.

 

There are, literally, million of WoW players who do so from a Mac. The Mac market is huge. And growing.

 

The poster I'm quoting as uneducated and as misinformed as I've seen.

 

Yeah a mac does everything a PC can do and a PC can do everything a mac can do. the different's is the price tag I can buy a mac or save money and buy a even more powerful PC.

 

Macs have never been worth the price tag. the only good thing to come from apple is its MP3 players and the Iphone.

[RuQu]

I find it telling that the most ardent anti-Mac responses are from people who read my OP where I make it clear I play this game on Boot Camp and somehow come away from that with the idea that I either don't play the game and want to, don't have Windows, or don't know how to setup Boot Camp.

 

Correlation does not imply causation, but there is a strong correlation between the most rabid of the anti-Mac responders and a serious lack of reading comprehension skills.

 

I have a Mac, running Windows via Boot Camp.

 

This discussion has never been, and never will be, about top-end gaming rigs, since SWTOR doesn't require one.

 

This isn't about the choice of computers you buy. Anyone who would buy a new computer just to play SWTOR already is playing. Anyone who would by Windows for Boot Camp just to play SWTOR has already done so.

 

That market is saturated. Some of the people will stay. Some will leave. There are very few in that market who are available to be recruited for the first time.

 

That means they need to branch out, and the remaining market is people who don't run top end rigs. This is why they are throwing so many resources at getting SWTOR usable for low-end rigs. But, strangely, they aren't making any public effort to go Mac. Considering the percentage of the college population who uses them, and who are a prime demographic for recruiting into MMOs, this decision is really quite inexplicable.

[Lethality]

LOL devs have been saying they're looking into things that will never come to fruition since I've been playing MMOs.

 

Your sig is kind of pointless, since anyone that can show support for a Mac native version already bought the game, played it with bootcamp or w/e, and is a current subscriber...including you. BioWare will make a native Mac version if/when they determine it is profitable. It's pretty funny that you think you know how profitable a Mac version of this game will be better than EA/BW does. Do you think they haven't made one just to spite Mac users or something?

 

It's a guaranteed return on investment for an otherwise underperforming game.

 

Read the article - it's coming.

 

Don't get so defensive just because I'm right.

[Lethality]

Yeah a mac does everything a PC can do and a PC can do everything a mac can do. the different's is the price tag I can buy a mac or save money and buy a even more powerful PC.

 

Macs have never been worth the price tag. the only good thing to come from apple is its MP3 players and the Iphone.

 

The price affects only your purchase decision, not mine.

[RuQu]

Personal hand BUILD PC > MAC

 

You cant argue with that.

 

My pc is faster than any of your macs and probably it cost lest

 

8gb corsair vengance low timings (one of the best cuality RAM's out there)

asus z68 m8v (one of the best cuality Motherboards out there)

2x HD 6970 2gb CF (Reference VGA's tested by AMD with dual bios and 2gb vram)

Wester digital 2x 500gb caviar black HD's (same brand of macs)

Intel i5 2500k @ 4.5ghz @ 1.2v

 

Half my hardware are the same that apple uses for their macs. But mine cost half of what apple selling it.

 

And you know, WD and Intel dont make special HD's or CPUs for mac, they use exactly the same. So does NVIDIA, there are all build in 3rd party factorys. And all RMA's go backs to the factory to be refurbished and into a mac xD

 

Perhaps I can't argue with the price per performance...

 

But I can point out that it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[ChicksDigHarleys]

It's a guaranteed return on investment for an otherwise underperforming game.

 

Read the article - it's coming.

 

Don't get so defensive just because I'm right.

 

Where did I say I'm against a Mac version? Oh yeah...I didn't.

 

I await your proof that it's a "guaranteed" ROI. If it's a guaranteed ROI, why isn't there one already?

 

If anyone is defensive, it's you. You seem to be the one that thinks it's some sort of personal slight that the game didn't launch with a Mac version.

[Lethality]

Where did I say I'm against a Mac version? Oh yeah...I didn't.

 

I await your proof that it's a "guaranteed" ROI. If it's a guaranteed ROI, why isn't there one already?

 

If anyone is defensive, it's you. You seem to be the one that thinks it's some sort of personal slight that the game didn't launch with a Mac version.

 

- poor management decisions early in the process

- poor choice of tech

- poor emergent market forecast and impact of simultaneous release

 

I've done all the math over the years in previous threads, and I know you were there for some of them.

 

If the game is great it's a no-brainer to make it for the Mac - guaranteed ROI.

[ChicksDigHarleys]

- poor management decisions early in the process

- poor choice of tech

- poor emergent market forecast and impact of simultaneous release

 

I've done all the math over the years in previous threads, and I know you were there for some of them.

 

If the game is great it's a no-brainer to make it for the Mac - guaranteed ROI.

 

What is your marketing expertise? Yeah, I saw your math in pre-release threads. It was all speculation and assumptions...no hard data. If it was a poor choice of tech (engine), then nothing has changed, and if anything, is a point *against* a Mac version.

 

I think if EA thought a Mac version was worth the investment, they would have ordered it. It's not like EA doesn't love money or something.

[ArkhamNative]

there is only one company that has the market for such a thing, and they didnt have a mac version right out of the door either.

I'm sorry to bring you this news, but your reputation for truth & honesty just took a major blow:

 

May 22, 2003: Blizzard updates FAQ to announce delivering WoW to PC/Mac simultaneously (link)

Jan 29, 2004: WoW Beta Sign-Up Begins; Mac Reqs Posted (link)

Nov 23, 2004: WoW ships for Mac & Windows (link)

 

Also, many other developers launch Mac+Windows simultaneously. Notably is Valve, which has publicly committed to releasing for Mac+Windows. John Carmack publicly apologized that the Mac version of RAGE wouldn't ship on release day (it shipped 4 months later with bonus content). Others do it on an ad-hoc basis, though the trend is increasing. Many other games port to Mac within months.

 

Despite the affordability of consoles and Boot Camp having been around for over 5 years, the Mac games market remains profitable, and is growing.

[RuQu]

How many Developers would be needed to port it to Mac? (I don't know).

 

How much would they get from a new customer who plays for a year? $60 for the box, plus $150 for a year's worth of subs. $210.

 

How much does a programmer make at Bioware? 50k? Certainly less than 100k. Let's say 50-75k a year. That is 238-357 Mac users per programmer to break even.

 

Then there is support. It takes 333-500 Mac users per programmer to cover the cost of maintaining the client, since the initial purchase is already done. Server maintenance, etc is not a significant additional cost since that is overhead already in place.

 

To be fair, there are some costs that are covered by the $15, but since they are returning a profit right now, those costs are being covered. The only additional cost, since they would be on the same servers, would be development and support of the client, and that can be assessed in terms of the sub price.

 

So how many programmers would it take? 5? 20? If I remember the Guild Summit livestream correctly they have 30 people dedicated to just making the game run better on low-end PCs. If they switched that entire unit to focusing on a Mac client, they could offset salaries of 75k for 30 people with only 10,700 subs. Salaries of 50k would only need 7, 140 subs.

 

I'm pretty sure the Mac market is bigger than that. Assume there are some unfactored costs in there (there certainly are in such a basic numbers run). With 2 million copies already sold to the PC market, and a low-ball estimate of 5% Mac market share, that is 100,000 copies of SWTOR. 100,000*$150 is $1.5million a year.

[nrevox]

I think the arguement of "which is better Mac or PC?" is pointless. That arguement will go on forever and most people have already dug in their heels for one camp or the other. The bottom line is that there is a huge chunk of computer market that owns Mac. I own a Mac and would love to see a Mac client for SWTOR. I don't have bootcamp and I am not paying for a Windows license just for 1 game, or ruining my Mac by partitioning it off. I will just have to use my old PC to chase Vette all over the galaxy until that changes. I still enjoy the game and will still play regardless.

[Morthis]

There's so many different things going on at once in this topic.

 

There's the back and forth fight of Mac vs PC, which includes all the typical arguments directly from Mac commercials (impossible to hack, doesn't crash, etc) that have basically zero impact on any end user with a clue because both systems can be exploited and neither is particularly likely to be exploited if you're just a home user who applies a little bit of common sense before downloading random things.

 

Then we have some Mac fans who are telling us that the age of the Mac is about to start, where all PC's are replaced by Macs and Mac becomes the primary gaming platform. This is happening right now, but I guess one of the biggest giants in the gaming industry didn't get the memo because not only did they design for PC first, they don't even have an ETA on the Mac version.

 

After that have math about how profitable it would be for EA to do this, because apparently it had never occurred to EA that they could sell copies to Mac users, so nobody over there had done this math yet. Thank god for the napkin math based on half a dozen assumptions, now they'll be able to develop a business strategy using that information.

 

Lastly we have PC users who stubbornly refuse to see any reason for Macs to exist at all and want Apple/Mac to just die off in an attitude that is just as snobbish and elitist as the one they accuse Mac users of having.

 

Weeee!

[RuQu]

There's so many different things going on at once in this topic.

 

There's the back and forth fight of Mac vs PC, which includes all the typical arguments directly from Mac commercials (impossible to hack, doesn't crash, etc) that have basically zero impact on any end user with a clue because both systems can be exploited and neither is particularly likely to be exploited if you're just a home user who applies a little bit of common sense before downloading random things.

 

Then we have some Mac fans who are telling us that the age of the Mac is about to start, where all PC's are replaced by Macs and Mac becomes the primary gaming platform. This is happening right now, but I guess one of the biggest giants in the gaming industry didn't get the memo because not only did they design for PC first, they don't even have an ETA on the Mac version.

 

After that have math about how profitable it would be for EA to do this, because apparently it had never occurred to EA that they could sell copies to Mac users, so nobody over there had done this math yet. Thank god for the napkin math based on half a dozen assumptions, now they'll be able to develop a business strategy using that information.

 

Lastly we have PC users who stubbornly refuse to see any reason for Macs to exist at all and want Apple/Mac to just die off in an attitude that is just as snobbish and elitist as the one they accuse Mac users of having.

 

Weeee!

 

Yup...that about sums it up. Who knew we'd have so much fun just from saying "If you want to recruit Grandma to play, some Grandma's use Macs and don't know/want to use a dual boot setup."

[astrocanis]

Whoever said I was a fan of Windows? Oh yeah, that would be you...

 

Still does not address the fact that you are whining about the game not being programmed in OSX and the fact you overspent for a slick case and fancy logo. Then have to buy a Windows OEM license on top of your overprice computer.

 

BTW... 75% of those trouble tickets can be eliminated by training the end users in the proper operation of the system. IT people have the mindset that PC's are so common that everyone knows how to use them, while Macs require training to use properly.

 

Actually, I'm not whining. I was simply arguing against Windows being superior because the hardware is cheaper.

 

And you feel qualified to discuss trouble tickets with me? Tell me, oh prince, what do those trouble tickets entail? You have no idea what I do, where I do it, or who the "user" community consists of. You simply rattle off boilerplate to denigrate my position.

 

You are right that I would prefer not to have to buy a Windows license. In fact, I use a PC as well as a Mac. I simply prefer the technical and technological underpinnings and interop capabilities of the Mac more. If someone came out with the Pumfluckenstunk system that blew the doors off of Windows, OSX or UNIX, I'd probably tout it as well.

 

You are declaring yourself a Windows fan. I don't have to and you don't have to state it. But by your willingness to simply attempt to outshout those who disagree with your "chosen one", you make yourself obvious.

 

Every tool has its place. Windows architecture has a shaky foundation. They need to fix it. But that's expensive and they are losing the race, so they probably won't.