Expertise - As seen from both sides of the fence. It is broken.

[PostalTwinkie]

I am not going to get into the math behind Expertise, I don't care, it has been done enough. This is simply my observation from playing since early access, taking two characters to 50 with a decent spread of time between them.

 

My first character to 50 was my Juggernaut, I hit 50 about mid January, and through WZ's managed to gear myself in full Champion gear. Being part of the early crowd to obtain my gear I at first didn't pay much attention to the Expertise argument, and how much of an advantage it is. Eventually I decided I would try and see what everyone was talking about, and rolled another character. The choice being the Agent to Operative route, even though they were nerfed heavily.

 

During the leveling of my Operative I spent a great deal of time in WZ's. I capped my Mercenary Commendations, fully geared myself in PvP gear several times, as well as companions. With the exception of a level 42 rifle, there is no Expertise on these items, just generally decent stats. At level 50 I completely upgraded my gear with items I had purchased during my level from the GTN, with commendations, etc. Generally getting about the best you can have outside of the PvP/PvE Tier sets.

 

Upon hitting 50 and being about as well geared as I could be for a "Fresh 50" I started the 50 bracket. It is hard to explain what it was like, I don't think frustrating is accurate enough, depressing I suppose is the word. The sudden plummet in damage I dealt to these geared characters was a slap in the face. I was seeing some crits down in the triple digits, only to have the returning hit to crit for upwards of 4,000. Overall survivability immediately became something along the lines of zero, to a few seconds if lucky. I went from dealing 200,000+ damage in a WZ to under 75,000. Due to the lack of damage dealt and how quickly I died upon revealing myself.

 

I was lucky enough to get into a 1 v 1 with another Operative, he of course being fully PvP geared. The disparity between damage coming and going between us was insulting. I am generally OK with gear providing an edge in combat, that is the point of getting better gear. But when gear gives a clear decisive win to the other, it just feels wrong. Especially when keeping in mind that my Operative hit 50 with about the best gear you can have out side of the Tier 1/2/3, I spent a great deal of time setting that up. Most new players are not going to be able or know to take that step. They are going to be using items they randomly found, or quest rewards. Not gear obtained through meticulous planning. Which really means the experience for them will be even worse than what I had.

 

It is just really sad, and slightly depressing, to experience what these new guys are talking about. It isn't something that they are making up, the gab between the new and older isn't a gap, more of a canyon. It is simply amazing switching between my Juggernaut and my Operative and seeing how drastically different play is, all because of one stat.

 

Night and day....it needs to be resolved.

[Derian]

I am not going to get into the math behind Expertise, I don't care, it has been done enough. This is simply my observation from playing since early access, taking two characters to 50 with a decent spread of time between them.

 

My first character to 50 was my Juggernaut, I hit 50 about mid January, and through WZ's managed to gear myself in full Champion gear. Being part of the early crowd to obtain my gear I at first didn't pay much attention to the Expertise argument, and how much of an advantage it is. Eventually I decided I would try and see what everyone was talking about, and rolled another character. The choice being the Agent to Operative route, even though they were nerfed heavily.

 

During the leveling of my Operative I spent a great deal of time in WZ's. I capped my Mercenary Commendations, fully geared myself in PvP gear several times, as well as companions. With the exception of a level 42 rifle, there is no Expertise on these items, just generally decent stats. At level 50 I completely upgraded my gear with items I had purchased during my level from the GTN, with commendations, etc. Generally getting about the best you can have outside of the PvP/PvE Tier sets.

 

Upon hitting 50 and being about as well geared as I could be for a "Fresh 50" I started the 50 bracket. It is hard to explain what it was like, I don't think frustrating is accurate enough, depressing I suppose is the word. The sudden plummet in damage I dealt to these geared characters was a slap in the face. I was seeing some crits down in the triple digits, only to have the returning hit to crit for upwards of 4,000. Overall survivability immediately became something along the lines of zero, to a few seconds if lucky. I went from dealing 200,000+ damage in a WZ to under 75,000. Due to the lack of damage dealt and how quickly I died upon revealing myself.

 

I was lucky enough to get into a 1 v 1 with another Operative, he of course being fully PvP geared. The disparity between damage coming and going between us was insulting. I am generally OK with gear providing an edge in combat, that is the point of getting better gear. But when gear gives a clear decisive win to the other, it just feels wrong. Especially when keeping in mind that my Operative hit 50 with about the best gear you can have out side of the Tier 1/2/3, I spent a great deal of time setting that up. Most new players are not going to be able or know to take that step. They are going to be using items they randomly found, or quest rewards. Not gear obtained through meticulous planning. Which really means the experience for them will be even worse than what I had.

 

It is just really sad, and slightly depressing, to experience what these new guys are talking about. It isn't something that they are making up, the gab between the new and older isn't a gap, more of a canyon. It is simply amazing switching between my Juggernaut and my Operative and seeing how drastically different play is, all because of one stat.

 

Night and day....it needs to be resolved.

 

They already said expertise is getting a nerf

[xxdragonragexx]

I don't get it. Expertise has nothing to do with battlemaster against fresh 50s.

Do you think fresh 50s can compete against fully geared rakata players?

If we take out expertise, do you think fresh 50s can compete against fully geared battlemasters? Learn your game before spouting nonsense in the boards.

[PostalTwinkie]

They already said expertise is getting a nerf

 

Oh, I missed that. Link with additional info? I am interested in seeing how much....

[Astarica]

I hit level 50 on my alt and have a full set of Centurion gear minus BP + 2 Champion Relic + Champion offhead from just commendations in 3 days. I started with 1000/1000 + an extra bag, and done daily/weekly but otherwise only PvP enough to buy 3 more bags. I have ~500 Expertise for a 10% mod versus 12.6% for 703 (max Expertise in the game).

 

Now I still get stomped by BM level guys in this alt since the gear is still a lot better than Centurion but it's not because of that 2% difference in Expertise.

[AMKSED]

Then you're bad.

[PostalTwinkie]

Oh, I missed that. Link with additional info? I am interested in seeing how much....

 

I don't get it. Expertise has nothing to do with battlemaster against fresh 50s.

Do you think fresh 50s can compete against fully geared rakata players?

If we take out expertise, do you think fresh 50s can compete against fully geared battlemasters? Learn your game before spouting nonsense in the boards.

 

It is funny you mention Rakata. As I played against people geared in Rakata, and there is a drastic difference between fighting someone in Rakata vs BM. But as the person above you stated, it seems they are nerfing Expertise. But of course if it didn't mean or do anything, that wouldn't be happening hu?

 

Then you're bad.

 

You are right, I am not that great, which drives my point home even further. The fact that just by having my Champion get on one character I can run around slapping the **** out of people, staying alive, doing damage. But when I am without that gear, get exploded nearly instantly and do about as much damage as a NERF bat.

Edited March 5, 2012 by PostalTwinkie

[xxdragonragexx]

It is funny you mention Rakata. As I played against people geared in Rakata, and there is a drastic difference between fighting someone in Rakata vs BM. But as the person above you stated, it seems they are nerfing Expertise. But of course if it didn't mean or do anything, that wouldn't be happening hu?

 

I heard santa clause exists too.

[PostalTwinkie]

I heard santa clause exists too.

 

/thread

 

That logic wins all!

 

Because Rakata gear increases the damage AND healing you do, as well as reducing incoming damage by a %.

 

If you will excuse me, I am going to go tell Santa what I want for Christmas this year.

[nschlan]

/thread

 

That logic wins all!

 

Because Rakata gear increases the damage AND healing you do, as well as reducing incoming damage by a %.

 

If you will excuse me, I am going to go tell Santa what I want for Christmas this year.

 

Rakata actually does more damage and healing because of the major differences in stats (my guild and I have tested this extensively, not going to go into specifics like the math and post match numbers as it's 2 a.m.). Only thing it helps with is survivability.

Edited March 5, 2012 by nschlan

[CupieFoxtail]

It is funny you mention Rakata. As I played against people geared in Rakata, and there is a drastic difference between fighting someone in Rakata vs BM

 

I think he meant PvE

A fresh level 50er will do very poorly compared to someone in rakata

It's just the nature of gear progression in an MMO

Luckily,they made the upswing to full expertise gear the shortest I've ever seen in an MMO

Edited March 5, 2012 by CupieFoxtail

[Derian]

It's in the QAs somewhere I'm not gonna dig to find it sorry

[xxdragonragexx]

/thread

 

That logic wins all!

 

Because Rakata gear increases the damage AND healing you do, as well as reducing incoming damage by a %.

 

If you will excuse me, I am going to go tell Santa what I want for Christmas this year.

 

I'm referring to you believing the expertise is going to be nerfed or you believing that it will be. They will have to create new pve gear first before they can play around with expertise.

 

Rakata does give more damage than battlemaster gear. Rakata gear bonus is also a lot better than BM gear. It gives better health, dmg, healing. But expertise still gives the best mitigation.

[Invictusthetaru]

If you've PvP'ed way more than someone else you should have something to show for it.

[AKfourtyseven]

They will have to create new pve gear first before they can play around with expertise.

 

 

A new tier of gear was confirmed in one of the dev chat statements. he also mentioned they were going to make the stat itemisation better on that tier.

 

So, when t4 hits, if the expertise curve remains as it is now, using some t4 PvE will almost definitely be better than pure t4 PvP, for PvP since it will be even easier to hit 550/600 and then stack a bunch of more useful stats.

[Lord_Karsk]

No matter what we argue about i think we can all agree on that bioware have no clue what they are doing when it comes to gear stats and looks.

[nschlan]

If you've PvP'ed way more than someone else you should have something to show for it.

 

No. Not at all. You should only get better gear for being better (but ideally there is NO gear grind and PvP is purely skill based)

[CupieFoxtail]

No. Not at all. You should only get better gear for being better

 

qft, once there's rated warzones

[xJACKTHERIPPERx]

The OP is yet another person who doesn't inderstand the extra stat bonuses you get alongside the expertise that makes battlemaster gear that much better. A full battlemaster warrior will have like 400 more str than a fresh 50 warrior. That MIGHT have a tiny bit to do with why they can kill fresh 50's faster.

It seems the OP is also one of those people who doesn't know how to play as a fresh 50. Here's a screenshot I took right when I hit 50, and then one exactly 20 mins after my first WZ at 50.

I didn't exactly throw down a lot of damage, but I had decent protection (not tank spec), a good amount of medals, and as always, what the scoreboard doesn't show, how much I assisted my team members.

http://i40.tinypic.com/10zzgw8.jpg

 

Fresh 50 WZ

 

Basically, I didn't do amazing, but I definitely wasn't on the bottom, and, as you can see, no PvP gear at all. Yes, the scoreboard could be hiding PvP implants and stuff, but it's not. It's hard to see, but you can see

Expertise: 0

 

Basically, expertise doesn't make a good player, just adjust your playstyle when you're a fresh 50. You're not gonna be awesome right away. Gear up a bit, then go be awesome.

[BulldogzLife]

Yeah like some people here have said, you can't hit 50 and expect to do all that great right away. If you were smart and had 1k/1k comms, along with a pre-purchased bag, you should have 6 bags with which to get comms out of. That nets you about 2 pieces of centurion and 42 champion comms, not to mention if you're lucky and get an item inside a bag. Then just grind it out for a couple days and pick up a few more pieces, and it should be a lot more even.

 

The other thing is, playing an Operative. It's the squishiest class there is, especially with no expertise. You rely on bursting people down, but against players with champion sets you won't be doing much dmg, on top of the mostly rediculous nerfs the Operative class has suffered. Not that I'll complain, as I still do amazing in PvP with my mostly champion geared Operative, but that's much more a testiment to player skill.

[BendakStarkiller]

The difference in expertise between BM and champ is on average 2.1% with a cube.

 

If you cant even get the champ set with how the token system is now then you are hopeless.

 

 

This entire thread comes down to.

 

"Lets nerf expertise and make others because im too lazy to get full champ."

[astrolite]

What the OP is asking for is to subvert the ENTIRE purpose of expertise. To keep PvE gear out of PvP.

 

You can go picket Bioware to have some crappy pre-Centurion craftable set because you're too lazy to pvp for 2 weeks.

[rzrknight]

Expertise is NOT getting more nerf and neither is the PvP gear.

 

You low new lvl 50 are not worth the air you breath in a wz , FACT.

 

Still the BM gear is meant to compete with the rakata gear , which let me break the news for you who know NOTHING about the endgame , is alrdy stronger than the BM set.

 

Now , yeah keep nerfing the BM gear , we will go get the rakata and use it in wzs , then guys you will see what a true trashing is all about.

Edited March 5, 2012 by rzrknight

[snaplemouton]

No matter what we argue about i think we can all agree on that bioware have no clue what they are doing when it comes to gear stats and looks.

 

Nobody have any idea of what they would do when it comes to gear stats and looks because whatever an MMO can give to players, the forum will still be filled with QQ, people asking nerfs, people saying other people should stop complaining, people that tell other to stop carring while obviously carring about the thread themselves as they would answer to anyone that quote them, people who believe everything is fine and people complain for nothing, trolls, people who gives good ideas but end up having their thread filled with the people mentionned in this paragraph, people that just love to answer to every single thread, people that tries to look cool by quoting random stuff from the internet, mods posting posts about other posts posters posted and to finish this long paragraph, people like me that post crap on the forum.

[Astarica]

A new tier of gear was confirmed in one of the dev chat statements. he also mentioned they were going to make the stat itemisation better on that tier.

 

So, when t4 hits, if the expertise curve remains as it is now, using some t4 PvE will almost definitely be better than pure t4 PvP, for PvP since it will be even easier to hit 550/600 and then stack a bunch of more useful stats.

 

There's actually no reason why the BM+1 tier can't just have the same expertise and just more other stats. Instead of 50 expertise 100 primary versus 0 expertise 120 primary, it can be 50 expertise 120 primary versus 0 expertise 145 primary.