ajbryant Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 So SWTOR has been out for a couple of months now and I was wondering what everyone thought of the claim that was made before the game launched that bioware "reinvented" the role of the tank in PvP. Personally I feel like making taunts do something useful isn't really that inventive and not really a good trade off for the fact that I feel less "tanky" than in any other game I've played. I have a lvl 50 vanguard, a lvl 35 guardian, and a lvl 31 shadow all tank spec'd. I'm usually in the top 1/4 of the warzone board with all of them so I while I won't claim to be amazing I'm not complete crap. None of them really make me think tank in the same way that other games have. I've played EQ II, Aion, Guild Wars , CoH, Champions, lineage II, AoC, and at least 1 or 2 more who's names are escaping me and I've tanked in all of them. SWTOR is the game I feel the most "squishy" in PvP for a tank. I realize that feeling I'm more squishy isn't really an empirical way of gathering data but as there is no combat log in SWTOR it's pretty much the best I've got. Personally I'm not convinced that giving taunts a purpose really reinvents anything or even makes for a good mechanic. AoC's collision system was more original and while that game had it's fair share of problems I felt they did more with tanks. Anyways this isn't supposed to be a nerf or buff something thread just me asking what everyone thinks about tanking in SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Anyways this isn't supposed to be a nerf or buff something thread just me asking what everyone thinks about tanking in SWTOR. No, they did not reinvent the tank in PvP. In this game tanks dont actually "tank" anything, we are debuffers, which is an entirely different role (at least in a proper system where you have debuffers). Edit: Actually, i went too far with we dont tank anything, with cooldowns up my Jugg does take the piss for a very limited time, but its absolutely nothing compared to one of the games you listed - CoH. Now in that game tanks were tanks in PvP. Edited March 5, 2012 by AKfourtyseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Ha ha, what? They seriously claimed that? Best PvP Team in the Business™ indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashbrother Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I don't know about the whole "reinventing" thing, but making taunt useful in pvp is an incredibly good idea. The only problem is that tanking stats are mostly meaningless in pvp, but that can be solved by recategorizing skills considered tech into melee/ranged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabaal Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I don't remember them claiming that but they did make them sound like they would be very similar to tanks in Warhammer Online. Apart from having the skill guard they are nothing alike, guard doesn't even work the same as the damage from it can't be reduced through mitigation or avoidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hulkweazel Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Tanking needs fixing. First, from what I understand, doesn't provide proper damage mitigation due to how Guard works. Second, shields/blocking/absorbtion is pretty useless. Finally, While they did make "tanking" useful, I hardly think it qualifies as tanking, since on my level 50 PT all I do is spam taunts every chance I get. Very little skill involved but I can still rack up medals by doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brokor Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Taunt is identical to warhammer online. so is guard. identical. this is to be expected since all swtor did is import designers from warhammer online and mythic. however there are lots of differences that made tanks much worse here than warhammer. 1)Shields. in warhammer you could shield every single attack in the game.even spells. even siege engines. even guard dmg. literally if you managed to achieve a nice shield rate (like i had on my chosen) you took no dmg from infront of you. i guarded my healer and took zero dmg from the guard, thus actually mitigating 50% of the dmg on him, instead of just being a sponge for his dmg. shield was mitigation. in this game shield is bonus endurance. 2) collission size. you could block people and prevent them from cornering your healers. 3)protecting the entire team. warhammer tanks had buffs and auras that protected the entire team. tanks here have zero buffs for their group apart from the generic class buffs. 4)counter-attacks. tanks had skills that allowed them to "reflect"dmg back to the attacker (most of those were also group buffs). thus they made attacking them/their group not worthwhile since you took dmg. 5)debuff/heal reducers. in swtor tanks cannot do anything to a well played healer apart from interrupt every 12 secs. in warhammer they removed HoT's, they applied healing debuffs (similar to marauders/sentinels here) so that they could wear down healers easier. playing as a pure tank in swtor is not worthwhile. however if you dont go pure tank your dps can be comparable to dps specs and you still gain good survivability . you cannot go the cc/debuff/protect route alone, you dotn contribute enough. i tried it on my assassin tank and it was bad. now i am on full dps gear on a tank spec and i do top or top2 dmg in warzones(when solo queued) and got rly good survivability and spamming taunt and guard lets me protect my healers/dps a bit. so for all the tanks out there, find a build that suits you and try to do some dmg. seeing BM juggernauts in voidstar do 80k dmg when i do 400k and i protect for more is really pitiful(i mention voidstar since there is not an objective that should prevent you from doing dmg like protecting a node or carrying a ball) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Don't think they ever made that claim. Warhammer did the whole tanking in PVP thing. It worked quite well, and SWTOR does pinch a few of those ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalliadies Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) In PvP MOST classes bypass the majority of your armor rating. Through debuffs and penetration, or internal/elemental damage In PvP MOST classes best attacks are not effected by shielding The only tools useful to a tank are absorb shields (spec’d force scream) and straight damage reduction (most are very limited) Tanky DPS or a fighter would be more accurate. To be tanks in PvP our shields need to work against more than just snipers Edited March 5, 2012 by Kalliadies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 In PvP MOST classes bypass the majority of your armor rating. Through debuffs and penetration, or internal/elemental damage In PvP MOST classes best attacks are not effected by shielding The only tools useful to a tank are absorb shields (spec’d force scream) and straight damage reduction (most are very limited) Tanky DPS or a fighter would be more accurate. To be tanks in PvP our shields need to work No. Most classes do not bypass armor. The vast majority of all classes' abilities (including sorcs and mercs) are mitigated by armor the same as white melee attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbryant Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Don't think they ever made that claim. Warhammer did the whole tanking in PVP thing. It worked quite well, and SWTOR does pinch a few of those ideas. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=SWTOR+claims+reinvents+tanking+in+pvp I can't say for sure that it originated with the SWTOR design team but it was mentioned quite often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalliadies Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) No. Most classes do not bypass armor. The vast majority of all classes' abilities (including sorcs and mercs) are mitigated by armor the same as white melee attacks. Mercs get; (while "mostly" bypassing shields completely). 35% percent passive pentration 20% from debuff 30% optional on rail shot depending on spec or they can go for more of an elemental approach Snipers get: (while "moslty" being affected by shields) 20% armor debuff 20% on ambush or they can take an internal approach Juggernaughts 20% armour debuff Maruder 100% amrour penetration internal damage Sorcs not effected by shielding Powertech mostly elemental 60% pen on rail shot 30% on rail shot etc etc etc. Not to mention the debuffs stack Everyone has an entire spec/ way of playing that bypasses armour. Tanks dont rely on armor in PvP Edited March 5, 2012 by Kalliadies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Mercs get; (while "mostly" bypassing shields completely). 35% percent passive pentration 20% from debuff 30% optional on rail shot depending on spec or they can go for more of an elemental approach Snipers get: (while "moslty" being affected by shields) 20% armor debuff 20% on ambush or they can take an internal approach Juggernaughts 20% armour debuff Maruder 100% amrour penetration Sorcs not effected by shielding etc etc etc. Not to mention the debuffs stack Everyone has an entire spec/ way of playing that bypasses armour. Tanks dont rely on armor in PvP 20% armor penetration on snipers is negligible - every class has a way of bypassing a small amount of armor. Sniper damage on tanks is poor. Nearly all sorc damage is mitigated by armor so they simply don't bypass armor at all. Other classes only have armor penetration on some attacks. Tanks do rely on armor in PVP and gain a huge amount of survivability from it, if they know what they are doing. They don't rely on shields. The only class that truely ignores most armor is powertech. The rest have trouble against high armor targets. Edited March 5, 2012 by Redmarx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferyClark Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) 20% armor penetration on snipers is negligible - every class has a way of bypassing a small amount of armor. Sniper damage on tanks is poor. Nearly all sorc damage is mitigated by armor so they simply don't bypass armor at all. Other classes only have armor penetration on some attacks. Tanks do rely on armor in PVP and gain a huge amount of survivability from it, if they know what they are doing. They don't rely on shields. The only class that truely ignores most armor is powertech. The rest have trouble against high armor targets. That's the problem... you're generically talking "tank" when you need to qualify it... right now a Guardian tank is worthless in pvp, but a Shadow tank is viable. Shadows have higher total mitigation than Guardians, despite the "heavy" armor; plus ranged attacks, but that's a different issue... Edited March 5, 2012 by JefferyClark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evuke Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) if by re-invents it means destroyed then yes, it did a good job of that by making all crit damage and all yellow damge ignore all armor/defense/mitigation/shields/etc making tanks worthless in pvp....which is why everyone who rolled tanks has switched to dps spec and swapped the shield for a power gen/focus/etc Edited March 5, 2012 by Evuke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 if by re-invents it means destroyed then yes, it did a good job of that by making all crit damage and all yellow damge ignore all armor/defense/mitigation/shields/etc making tanks worthless in pvp ... Evuke, you're clueless. Yellow damage and crit damage do not ignore armor. Stop posting misinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Well, tanking in pvp is a great deal different in pvp than.... not having a tank. What other games really let you tank in pvp anyway? You sure can't do it in WoW. I rather like how the system works- but, they do need to make buffs/debuffs/targets clearer in the UI- right now it doesn't tell you much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalliadies Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) 20% armor penetration on snipers is negligible - every class has a way of bypassing a small amount of armor. Sniper damage on tanks is poor. By itself you're right, its not much. but they all add up. any class will get hit with this from 30 meters away at the start of a fight. it lasts 45 seconds. Tanks are going to pickup alot more armour debuffs than just one There are no shortage of debuffs Edited March 5, 2012 by Kalliadies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglemouse Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 playing as a pure tank in swtor is not worthwhile. however if you dont go pure tank your dps can be comparable to dps specs and you still gain good survivability . I agree with this I play a Tankasin and I respect to pure dps, but I use nearly full tank gear and use tank stance (BM stalker implants for crit however). This gives me the 150% increase from light armor, and I use a shield generator so I have good defense, shield rate and absorption. I gave up dark ward so -15% shield rate I think, but I have an artifact that adds a good amount if in a tough fight or if I carry the ball. However with the DPS build I get nearly all the advantages of pure dps minus the gear. So I hit rather hard and yet most things can't kill me. Don't try to solo a healer, but you will crush other tanks and many dps that think your a soft target in cloth and you can live though missile tracer spam. That said, no I don't feel like a tank in pvp and taunt my rack up some medals but I have never seen it turn a battle in my favor. In fact except for farming medals I don't use it (is 6 second of -15% damage even noticed?). Guard: I have to admit it really does help whoever you guard, but as pointed out you don't seem to have any reduction in damage from defense or anything so if they take 10k damage so do you and the persons you are guarding many times has poor armor making you have poor armor as well. As a melee type it's almost pointless to guard a healer because of the short range as they staying back out of the aoe. So who do you guard? Pure melee dps or other tanks, but really this just doubles the aoe damage you take. So after medals I no longer guard with the exception of a hutt ball runner at times. I guess if your a ranged tank things are better. Now if taunt forced them to target you for 6 second that would be sooo much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashbrother Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 My guardian's survivability is far better in my tank stance which gives me tons more armor, then when I'm not in it. More armor does help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalliadies Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) My guardian's survivability is far better in my tank stance which gives me tons more armor, then when I'm not in it. More armor does help. you also get straight damage reduction from that stance. damage reduction cant be taken away, armor can by some pretty large percentages Edited March 5, 2012 by Kalliadies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticoccus Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 They have done a GREAT job with taunt, allowing you to cash in on a couple of free medals every WC by just hitting everything that moves as soon as it's off CD and bleeding off 30% of their damage to others. Taunt is pretty much a must have skill for the toolbar of any class that can use it regardless of if they are a tank or not, you don't even have to fight, you just apply the debuff and stay away for free protection medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 No. Most classes do not bypass armor. The vast majority of all classes' abilities (including sorcs and mercs) are mitigated by armor the same as white melee attacks. Pretty much anything listed as elemental/internal will bypass armor. So most of my attacks as a PT. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bglodt Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 20% armor penetration on snipers is negligible - every class has a way of bypassing a small amount of armor. Sniper damage on tanks is poor. Nearly all sorc damage is mitigated by armor so they simply don't bypass armor at all. Other classes only have armor penetration on some attacks. Tanks do rely on armor in PVP and gain a huge amount of survivability from it, if they know what they are doing. They don't rely on shields. The only class that truely ignores most armor is powertech. The rest have trouble against high armor targets. Ummm no. Most sorc spells are force/elemental.... Force bypasses shields.... Elemental bypasses armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticoccus Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Pretty much anything listed as elemental/internal will bypass armor. So most of my attacks as a PT. : ) I only need two attacks that bypass armor to melt your face 1v1 anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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