Same gender relationships clarifications?

[ProfessorCaprion]

I apologize for being blunt, but MMOs rarely give the, "Yes, we're working on this." type of update. It's just not something you see frequently for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that companies don't want to make shallow promises if the project gets shuffled to some degree. If they have an update, they'll give it. If they don't have an update, they'll usually stay silent. It's just how it is.

 

I think the actual issue is that BioWare is doing just that, with this game, in the weekly Q&A threads, just not on this particular topic.

[Lashknife]

I think the actual issue is that BioWare is doing just that, with this game, in the weekly Q&A threads, just not on this particular topic.

 

I can understand the frustration there. I have my own vested interests in other parts of the game that have remained without commentary. The only thing to do is keep asking every week. On the plus side, there may be information at the upcoming guild summit, pending the people going actually ask.

[Kioma]

Again, I do support SGRAs. I do want this thread (and the others!) to stay visible so Bioware knows where to best put the update when they have one. However, I (in the wonderful nature of opinion) do not believe that making demands will help the situation at all, and will likely result in the customer becoming even more frustrated. If you feel otherwise, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I certainly do not wish to escalate this into an argument and potentially cause it to become derailed, locked, or any variation that results in it dropping down the pages.

 

Therein lies the problem. This thread is, in part, about asking for more information. We're asking for more information and at the same time discussing how we want to see the feature implemented.

 

Now, there's only so much talk we can produce on the feature's implementation (though we do still come out with some hum-dingers from time to time) so the only other way to keep this thread legitimately visible (as opposed to posting 'bump' in it every ten minutes) is to keep asking.

 

And, of course, we're still asking because we still want to know. There are a lot of possibilities we've come up with that would change the nature of this inclusion quite significantly, and would like feedback from the developers on that.

 

I see your point, and commend your ability to state it calmly. But irrespective of whether Bioware (or MMO companies in general) is inclined to answer us or not, we still have questions, and keep coming up with more.

 

So... we keep asking. Some with more patience and courtesy than others, and I know I've been on both sides of the patient/impatient fence.

 

Again, I see your point. I agree and disagree with aspects of it but frankly I'm tired of people arguing with one another and would just like to get back to discussing implementation. So whilst I see your point I'd also like to ask for a bit of leniency before you start throwing terms around like 'entitled'. It'll only get people's backs up and then all of a sudden we have several pages of unhelpful arguments to contend with.

 

Bioware has stated several times before that they're happy to have people continue asking, and so we are. Discussions of whether we should or not don't help anyone.

[sparklecat]

I think the actual issue is that BioWare is doing just that, with this game, in the weekly Q&A threads, just not on this particular topic.

 

Yeah, this. It's not about getting it implemented asap, it's about our questions being ignored when they're perfectly willing to give unspecific comments on other features, including ones that aren't blocking people from playing their games.

 

 

I recognize you see it as side content, Lashknife, but to people who are here primarily or exclusively for the roleplaying, who feel that they can't play their characters without more information such as "will I be able to go back and romance this companion if I've already run through all their conversations by the time SGRAs are in?", this is pretty important.

[Lashknife]

Therein lies the problem. This thread is, in part, about asking for more information. We're asking for more information and at the same time discussing how we want to see the feature implemented.

 

Now, there's only so much talk we can produce on the feature's implementation (though we do still come out with some hum-dingers from time to time) so the only other way to keep this thread legitimately visible (as opposed to posting 'bump' in it every ten minutes) is to keep asking.

 

And, of course, we're still asking because we still want to know. There are a lot of possibilities we've come up with that would change the nature of this inclusion quite significantly, and would like feedback from the developers on that.

 

I see your point, and commend your ability to state it calmly. But irrespective of whether Bioware (or MMO companies in general) is inclined to answer us or not, we still have questions, and keep coming up with more.

 

So... we keep asking. Some with more patience and courtesy than others, and I know I've been on both sides of the patient/impatient fence.

 

Again, I see your point. I agree and disagree with aspects of it but frankly I'm tired of people arguing with one another and would just like to get back to discussing implementation. So whilst I see your point I'd also like to ask for a bit of leniency before you start throwing terms around like 'entitled'. It'll only get people's backs up and then all of a sudden we have several pages of unhelpful arguments to contend with.

 

Bioware has stated several times before that they're happy to have people continue asking, and so we are. Discussions of whether we should or not don't help anyone.

 

Yeah, this. It's not about getting it implemented asap, it's about our questions being ignored when they're perfectly willing to give unspecific comments on other features, including ones that aren't blocking people from playing their games.

 

 

I recognize you see it as side content, Lashknife, but to people who are here primarily or exclusively for the roleplaying, who feel that they can't play their characters without more information such as "will I be able to go back and romance this companion if I've already run through all their conversations by the time SGRAs are in?", this is pretty important.

 

 

I accept that and apologize for the way I worded it. I do support the asking of such questions, as they need to be asked and should, ideally, be addressed. It is the act of demanding answers, particularly in the form of, "Answer or I quit." type commentary that were the crux of my original post.

[Kioma]

I accept that and apologize for the way I worded it. I do support the asking of such questions, as they need to be asked and should, ideally, be addressed. It is the act of demanding answers, particularly in the form of, "Answer or I quit." type commentary that were the crux of my original post.

 

Ahh, gotcha. That clears that up, then.

 

Personally I think nobody should be playing a game they don't enjoy, for whatever reason they don't enjoy it, but I do see your point on how that can look if not phrased carefully.

[MusedMoose]

Okay. Been wanting to post about this for quite a while, and I just spent 20 minutes looking through previous versions of this thread to find the relevant quotes - thank you, Uluain, for posting them here. So here goes and I hope this ends up being worth it.

 

I wanted to address both the long-standing silence from BioWare on this topic and how people feel about it, mostly how people feel like we're being ignored. I don't think we're being deliberately ignored, and one of the quotes from Stephen Reid on this topic is why. To quote:

 

"However, one of the amazing things about MMOs is that over time we can get to add things that are exciting and interesting to smaller audiences. Normally, that's not something that's addressed too far ahead of time. In this case, we felt the addition was warranted and should be addressed early."

 

I'd like to focus on the last two lines from Mr. Reid. As we all know, people have brought up a ton of things they'd like to see in the game, and BioWare has largely been silent on whether such things will be implemented. For example, people have been asking for free-form space combat and/or space PvP since the beta, and to the best of my knowledge, we have no word on that. BioWare seems to be holding back on addressing any issues until they can say that they're working on it, even if they can't give an ETA.

 

However, the issue of SGRs was addressed back in beta, with Mr. Reid's word that SGRs would be implemented as post-launch content. As he stated, normally they wouldn't address something "too far ahead of time", but they specifically felt this issue "should be addressed early". I think it's safe to say that they wanted their players to know that yes, they would be getting what they expected from relationships in a BioWare game.

 

I don't think this excuses the complete lack of info since then, but I do think it explains it. With the sheer number of people working on this game, I think it's safe to say there are tons of different things being worked on simultaneously. I understand why BioWare doesn't want to talk about features that haven't had enough work done on them to be confirmed, as we all know that players get disappointed when they hear about a feature that never sees the light of day. SGRs got a bit of special treatment by being brought up and confirmed so long before they were ready.

 

It's my guess that SGRs are still in progress and we haven't heard anything yet because they're not at the point where BioWare would normally confirm their addition. I'd like to remind everyone that Uluain did receive a personally written response from Customer Service confirming that SGRs are currently being worked on (see the last post on the page), and I think it's safe to say that's something CS would not have been allowed to say without approval from higher-up. This is why I think it's not a case of them ignoring us, but a policy of them not making further statements about content that's not ready to be discussed/revealed.

 

Finally, with the guild summit coming up, I think we're going to hear something about SGRs coming from that. It's logically impossible for BioWare not to know that this is an issue their players want to hear about; our presence on the Q&A threads confirms that. And seeing as how it is such an important issue for a lot of players, I think there's an incredibly good chance that someone will bring it up at the guild summit. What news we get will, of course, depend on what BioWare is willing to say, but it's a lot harder to not answer someone's question when they're in the room with you.

 

I also think it's possible that BioWare has been holding back info on this because they're waiting to release the news at the guild summit; with all the other info that's supposedly going to be coming out, letting info about SGRs come out (no pun intended) as well would make far too much sense.

 

...and that's it. If this helps make the situation better for even one person, I'll consider this time well spent.

Edited March 4, 2012 by MusedMoose

[IsThisForever]

Honestly the optimistic part of me hopes that the reason we haven't had our question answered in any of the Q&A posts is because it IS too big and important an issue to be dealt with in that context (it's mostly tiny little details that get covered there, from what I can tell). The guild summit, especially the section for roleplayers, seems like a better place to talk about it. Fingers crossed for some good news soon Edited March 4, 2012 by IsThisForever

[MamaSok]

Honestly the optimistic part of me hopes that the reason we haven't had our question answered in any of the Q&A posts is because it IS too big and important issue to be dealt with in that context (it's mostly tiny little details that get covered there, from what I can tell). The guild summit, especially the section for roleplayers, seems like a better place to talk about it. Fingers crossed for some good news soon

 

I'm staying hopeful that something will be said, really anything at all and I would be very happy!

[MusedMoose]

Honestly the optimistic part of me hopes that the reason we haven't had our question answered in any of the Q&A posts is because it IS too big and important issue to be dealt with in that context (it's mostly tiny little details that get covered there, from what I can tell). The guild summit, especially the section for roleplayers, seems like a better place to talk about it. Fingers crossed for some good news soon

I hadn't thought of that, but that's an excellent point. There are a lot of issues that come up with SGRs - the fact that this thread is on its fourth incarnation proves that. BioWare addressing it as a brief bit in a Q&A column would probably lead to a huge headache on the boards. Being able to fully present it at the guild summit would be a better idea, if only for PR reasons.

 

Also: off-topic, but I love your signature. My Sith Inquisitor sometimes rides elevators up and down more than necessary just because her lekku fly up when the elevator goes down.

[Nozybidaj]

I just do not understand the reasoning of quiting over "If I do not get my way" . This isn't game breaking and you know because this is Bioware it is coming .

 

Why shouldn't people quit? This is for many people a game breaking issue and we have no idea if or when it is coming.

 

Why is this the only issue on the forum people think should just "shut up and wait forever"? It's ridiculous actually. What if PvP was completely broken and unplayable and BW said, yeah we'll fix it someday, then said absolutely nothing for 6 months? I would think people that like to PvP would be rioting and quitting by that point too.

 

The fact the mods even allow that kind of thing in this thread is a little baffling to me. No one has the right to come into this thread and tell us our wants are unimportant. Maybe they are to you, fine, then leave and go find a topic you do think is important. Otherwise you are just trolling and flame baiting.

 

Fact is, Bioware has handled this issue about as poorly as it could be from the start, first by not putting the content into the game for launch, on to their ignoring the issues and ignoring the fans concerned about the content. I'm actually surprised there are still as many supporters around as there are and that more haven't already quit the game. That will probably start to change soon though, I think most people are finally getting fed up with the treatment we have received so far.

[Lurkz]

Honestly the optimistic part of me hopes that the reason we haven't had our question answered in any of the Q&A posts is because it IS too big and important issue to be dealt with in that context (it's mostly tiny little details that get covered there, from what I can tell). The guild summit, especially the section for roleplayers, seems like a better place to talk about it. Fingers crossed for some good news soon

 

I hadn't thought of that, but that's an excellent point. There are a lot of issues that come up with SGRs - the fact that this thread is on its fourth incarnation proves that. BioWare addressing it as a brief bit in a Q&A column would probably lead to a huge headache on the boards. Being able to fully present it at the guild summit would be a better idea, if only for PR reasons.

 

This is what I'm hoping for personally. And is why I will be compulsively checking my computer tomorrow and watching the streaming videos (if possible amidst packing and such).

[JansanRuno]

Why shouldn't people quit? This is for many people a game breaking issue and we have no idea if or when it is coming.

 

Why is this the only issue on the forum people think should just "shut up and wait forever"? It's ridiculous actually. What if PvP was completely broken and unplayable and BW said, yeah we'll fix it someday, then said absolutely nothing for 6 months? I would think people that like to PvP would be rioting and quitting by that point too.

 

The fact the mods even allow that kind of thing in this thread is a little baffling to me. No one has the right to come into this thread and tell us our wants are unimportant. Maybe they are to you, fine, then leave and go find a topic you do think is important. Otherwise you are just trolling and flame baiting.

 

Fact is, Bioware has handled this issue about as poorly as it could be from the start, first by not putting the content into the game for launch, on to their ignoring the issues and ignoring the fans concerned about the content. I'm actually surprised there are still as many supporters around as there are and that more haven't already quit the game. That will probably start to change soon though, I think most people are finally getting fed up with the treatment we have received so far.

 

Why can't people come to this thread and tell you that they think your issue is not game breaking? They are allowed to post in all the other threads on the forums concerning chat bubbles, PVP, end game, the UI, games too easy, games too hard, you name it. There are people who think that all those issues are game breaking as well.

 

I do fully support the right of anyone to quit if they think their game-breaking issue is not being addressed.

[Kioma]

Flacco (Sniper, 16)

 

<snickers> A sniper named Flacco. That's just awesome.

 

I do fully support the right of anyone to quit if they think their game-breaking issue is not being addressed.

 

All argument aside, that's the crux of the matter. If it's personally game-breaking, and it's not being addressed, there's no reason not to quit. It's not as if they're going to stop people from rejoining later.

[emusan]

Why can't people come to this thread and tell you that they think your issue is not game breaking? They are allowed to post in all the other threads on the forums concerning chat bubbles, PVP, end game, the UI, games too easy, games too hard, you name it. There are people who think that all those issues are game breaking as well.

 

I do fully support the right of anyone to quit if they think their game-breaking issue is not being addressed.

 

People are allowed to post such things if they want, as long as they fall within the code of conduct and the topic. And people do come here to say that they think our issue is not game breaking, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to...

[Silthir]

People are allowed to post such things if they want, as long as they fall within the code of conduct and the topic. And people do come here to say that they think our issue is not game breaking, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to...

 

He meant why can people. Personally I don't believe that it should be allowed, because they're basically telling us that what we want isn't important.

[JansanRuno]

<snickers> A sniper named Flacco. That's just awesome.

 

 

 

All argument aside, that's the crux of the matter. If it's personally game-breaking, and it's not being addressed, there's no reason not to quit. It's not as if they're going to stop people from rejoining later.

 

Yeah. I thought Flacco was a cool sniper name.

 

On the topic, if they quit they lose their voice here on getting their change made. But to me that's an individual decision people can make. As you say, people can come back later if EA/BW fixes their personal game-breaking issue.

[JansanRuno]

He meant why can people. Personally I don't believe that it should be allowed, because they're basically telling us that what we want isn't important.

 

No I meant "can't". My response was to what I quoted where that person said that "no one has the right to come into this thread and tell them there issue is not important".

[sparklecat]

He meant why can people. Personally I don't believe that it should be allowed, because they're basically telling us that what we want isn't important.

 

I don't know, buddy, it goes both ways; if they can't tell us our desires aren't important, we can't tell them their desires to hide the gay via toggle aren't important, either (or... well. I'm sure they're very personally important, and that's absolutely their prerogative, but shouldn't be important to the developers). And the latter is basically the conclusion of most of the arguments I'm making on the subject.

[Suaine]

Yeah. I thought Flacco was a cool sniper name.

 

On the topic, if they quit they lose their voice here on getting their change made. But to me that's an individual decision people can make. As you say, people can come back later if EA/BW fixes their personal game-breaking issue.

 

But if they stay they support a company that they feel does not support them or their views. I think with a topic as personal as this one can be, as tied to identity, it is not anyone's job here to be the voice of the community. Bioware hurts them, they have a responsibility to their own well-being long before they have a responsibility to effect change.

 

This particular topic isn't quite the same as a simple game mechanic. I think we can all agree that this is true based on the sheer amount of times the mods have to delete discussion in this thread for political, religious or moral arguments. I don't know how many people are leaving because of this and only this topic, but equating it with other game mechanics while trying to measure how much of an effect it is allowed to have on the person who decides to pay for the game is not entirely fair.

 

Say, I like crafting and selling things on the GTN. The fact that crafting is not what I thought it would be and the GTN is near useless makes me unsatisfied with the game. I want answers from Bioware about GTN improvements. Set aside that it is indeed a topic that they have spoken about, issues with ingame economy, while personally aggravating and game-breaking, are not quite the same as an issue that touches on the sense of self of the player.

 

The way same-gender relationships are portrayed in this game or any other - or the fact that they are not allowed to exist - have a profound effect on the player who sees him or herself represented. When women were finally able to play their own gender in video games it had a welcoming and liberating effect on the women gamer community - suddenly we felt not just like interlopers, but like we belonged.

 

And not having that feeling right now is why some people here feel it is right to leave over what is, mechanically, not that big an issue.

[Nozybidaj]

Why can't people come to this thread and tell you that they think your issue is not game breaking?

 

Because it is obviously trolling. It isn't on topic and is obvious flame baiting meant to do nothing but provoke reactions from people. That is pretty much the definition of trolling. Trolling isn't (supposed) to be allowed on the forum.

[Lashknife]

Because it is obviously trolling. It isn't on topic and is obvious flame baiting meant to do nothing but provoke reactions from people. That is pretty much the definition of trolling. Trolling isn't (supposed) to be allowed on the forum.

 

Mods can't do anything if the posts aren't flagged. They can only be reactive in this. That said, someone has the right to come in and disagree with the subject at hand. When it becomes more than that, then it's usually an issue.

 

It's OK to not like something and share your opinion on it. It's not OK when it becomes rude, insulting, or demeaning.

[JansanRuno]

But if they stay they support a company that they feel does not support them or their views. I think with a topic as personal as this one can be, as tied to identity, it is not anyone's job here to be the voice of the community. Bioware hurts them, they have a responsibility to their own well-being long before they have a responsibility to effect change.

 

As I said it is a personal decision. Stay or leave. Everyone has that option.

 

This particular topic isn't quite the same as a simple game mechanic. I think we can all agree that this is true based on the sheer amount of times the mods have to delete discussion in this thread for political, religious or moral arguments. I don't know how many people are leaving because of this and only this topic, but equating it with other game mechanics while trying to measure how much of an effect it is allowed to have on the person who decides to pay for the game is not entirely fair.

 

It is just a game mechanic like chat bubbles or the UI. Implying there is some "fairness" issue seems to be making it a social issue and it can't be a social issue because BW has stated that we can't discuss social issues. As a game mechanic the UI, or GTN affect many more people.

[Tsumedai]

Implying there is some "fairness" issue seems to be making it a social issue and it can't be a social issue because BW has stated that we can't discuss social issues.

 

Er...what? That doesn't follow at all.

[Nozybidaj]

Mods can't do anything if the posts aren't flagged.

 

They are, trust me.

 

That said, someone has the right to come in and disagree with the subject at hand.

 

1) No one has a right to anything here, it is Bioware's forum. There is no right to free speech here. When something is so obviously being posted as flame bat, Bioware has every right to remove it, I'd dare say responsibility to remove it if they actually want to promote constructive discussion on their forums.

 

2) Whether the content is important or not or whether content is offensive or not or whether the content should be in the game or not is not "the subject at hand". If folks want to discuss that go start your own thread.