genesiser Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) When you think about it, they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the names of difficulty levels of operations and it gives people a false sense of accomplishment when completing some of these modes. "Normal" mode is essentially the difficulty of wow's looking for raid difficulty. In other words, it's nothing more than an introduction to the raid and it's easy. A pug of decently geared players with barely any coordination can complete them. "Hard" mode is basically the normal difficulty. That is to say that you need good gear and a competent group of players to complete it. It requires general team play and a bit of planning if you want to win. "Nightmare" mode is the hard mode of raiding, or at least supposed to be. You need really good gear and a solid team to win. The problem I see with the current naming of difficulty levels is it gives players a false sense of accomplishment when they complete say, normal mode. It's why every time people step into a raid and complete it with ease, they complain that swtors raiding is too easy. It happened when the game came out and it will continue to happen with each new raid that comes out. With the name normal mode, it implies that they have completed a raid that is tuned to be a challenge and completing it means you beat something. However, in reality it's nothing more than an introduction to the raid and beating it doesn't really mean much. Perhaps in the future they should change the names of their raids. Something like normal is now called easy mode, hard mode is now normal mode, nightmare - well they can keep that if they wish, just up the difficulty because it's the final raid challenge of the current tier and it should be very hard so that only the best teams can beat it. I think this would go a long way in changing the psyche of players that start in on raiding. If they beat the current normal mode, they get the impression that they've completed something that's some what challenging. But in reality it's nothing more than an introduction to raiding. And really, who would be satisfied with just beating easy mode? It would give an incentive to move up to higher difficulties. Edited March 2, 2012 by genesiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmiles Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Insanely difficult mode... you get DC'd as soon as you enter the instance... every time... if you manage to actually kill anything, your account gets flagged for using a cheat and you are banned for 60 days. That make you feel better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyKyrenS Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Super Insane Mega Death Mode: Upon death, you lose ownership of the game and have to supply a new product to continue to play. Cannot be appealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 When you think about it, they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the names of difficulty levels of operations and it gives people a false sense of accomplishment when completing some of these modes. "Normal" mode is essentially the difficulty of wow's looking for raid difficulty. In other words, it's nothing more than an introduction to the raid and it's easy. A pug of decently geared players with barely any coordination can complete them. "Hard" mode is basically the normal difficulty. That is to say that you need good gear and a competent group of players to complete it. It requires general team play and a bit of planning if you want to win. "Nightmare" mode is the hard mode of raiding, or at least supposed to be. You need really good gear and a solid team to win. The problem I see with the current naming of difficulty levels is it gives players a false sense of accomplishment when they complete say, normal mode. With the name normal mode, it implies that they have completed a raid that is tuned to be a challenge and completing it means you beat something. However, in reality it's nothing more than an introduction to the raid and beating it doesn't really mean much. Perhaps in the future they should change the names of their raids. Something like normal is now called easy mode, hard mode is now normal mode, nightmare - well they can keep that if they wish, just up the difficulty because it's the final raid challenge of the current tier and it should be very hard so that only the best teams can beat it. I think this would go a long way in changing the psyche of players that start in on raiding. If they beat the current normal mode, they get the impression that they've completed something that's some what challenging. But in reality it's nothing more than an introduction to raiding. And really, who would be satisfied with just beating easy mode? It would give an incentive to move up to higher difficulties. why compare it to WoW this isn't wow also only about 5% max of the playerbase will raid anyway so I doubt they'd change much about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbowsin Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 So basically what you are saying is that you are uber leet hardcore raider and anyone who finds normal or hard mode ops challenging are noobs. Why not call them all for what they really are, easy. Since they are nothing more than gear checks we will change 'normal mode' to 'those with little time easy mode', 'hard mode' will now become 'those with average time easy mode' and 'nightmare mode' will become 'those with way too much time that they feel the need to justify the time spent by believing they are better than everyone else easy mode'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CogitoErgo Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Why worry about what other people feel they accomplished when they raid, and worry about what YOU feel you accomplished when YOU raid. This is really an argument in semantics and silly to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genesiser Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) So basically what you are saying is that you are uber leet hardcore raider and anyone who finds normal or hard mode ops challenging are noobs. Why not call them all for what they really are, easy. Since they are nothing more than gear checks we will change 'normal mode' to 'those with little time easy mode', 'hard mode' will now become 'those with average time easy mode' and 'nightmare mode' will become 'those with way too much time that they feel the need to justify the time spent by believing they are better than everyone else easy mode'. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. About a month ago people were completing the normal mode raids with very little effort. They were complaining it was so easy and that raids shouldn't be that easy. If the first set of raiding was called easy mode or introductory mode you wouldn't have that happen. The whole point of the first difficulty level is specifically designed to not be hard so pretty much any pug can complete it. Seeing as that's the case, it should be named as such. When the next set of raids come out you are going to see the same thing happen. People will say, "We completed the new raid in one night on normal mode." Is that a stigma the game really wants to have? That their raids are a joke? I don't think so. That's why changing the name would go a long way on impressions people get with raiding. Edited March 2, 2012 by genesiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSchmo Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 First thing I think when I accomplish something, "boy I wish it was named different so I feel better about finishing it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunablade Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Why not call them all for what they really are, easy. Since they are nothing more than gear checks .. Sadly this is not far from truth about how current TOR PVE endgame looks like atm. Edited March 2, 2012 by Lunablade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CogitoErgo Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 No, that's not what I'm saying at all. About a month ago people were completing the normal mode raids with very little effort. They were complaining it was so easy and that raids shouldn't be that easy. If the first set of raiding was called easy mode or introductory mode you wouldn't have that happen. The whole point of the first difficulty level is specifically designed to not be hard so pretty much any pug can complete it. Seeing as that's the case, it should be named as such. When the next set of raids come out you are going to see the same thing happen. People will say, "We completed the new raid in one night on normal mode." Is that a stigma the game really wants to have? That their raids are a joke? I don't think so. That's why changing the name would go a long way on impressions people get with raiding. So is the problem that they're named the wrong things or is the problem that the raids are too easy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbowsin Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 No, that's not what I'm saying at all. That's good. the first difficulty level is specifically designed to not be hard so pretty much any pug can complete it. Seeing as that's the case, it should be named as such. Hence why the first difficulty level, "normal" is not called "hard". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain_b Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 OP- You are so cool. Where can I sign up for your newsletter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genesiser Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) That's good. Hence why the first difficulty level, "normal" is not called "hard". While true, it's not called hard for a reason, do you actually think if people completed say "easy" mode they would come onto the forums or go on other websites and complain that the new raid was easy? That's my whole point. Word gets out that raiding in swtor is a joke because it's so easy. The problem is people are completing easy mode when it's called normal mode and they think they are completing something that is intended to be a little difficult when in reality they are just getting through the introduction phase of the new raid. You can go on a number of websites and people say normal mode ops are easier than hard mode flash points. Perhaps if it was called easy mode they wouldn't have a problem with that. However currently, people find it laughable that a normal mode raid is easier than normal group content. Edited March 2, 2012 by genesiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longport Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Bioware is just creating a new paradigm where casual raiders can experience end-game content. So you can make the more hardcore raiders happy by calling the first level of difficulty "easy." The problem is that such a term would be insulting to the casuals (who represent a FAR larger portion of the player-base) while also trivializing their accomplishment. Or you can keep the "normal" moniker which makes casuals happy with what they've done while the worst that it does for hardcore raiders is make them post comments on forums criticizing the difficulty of raids...when there are two raid levels of difficulty above the normal level to challenge them. Which is smarter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genesiser Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Bioware is just creating a new paradigm where casual raiders can experience end-game content. So you can make the more hardcore raiders happy by calling the first level of difficulty "easy." The problem is that such a term would be insulting to the casuals (who represent a FAR larger portion of the player-base) while also trivializing their accomplishment. Or you can keep the "normal" moniker which makes casuals happy with what they've done while the worst that it does for hardcore raiders is make them post comments on forums criticizing the difficulty of raids...when there are two raid levels of difficulty above the normal level to challenge them. Which is smarter? I don't agree with the statement that it would insult casuals. Think about it, if you rent a game and you know full well that you have no intention of playing it hard core to get all the achievements and you just want to experience the content of the game, do you get insulted that the developers of the game had the gull to name the lowest difficulty setting easy or beginner? It's the same thing here, the "normal" mode is to allow people to experience said raid without much of a challenge. People play that mode and see it's called normal and think that it's the intended difficulty level of the operation when in fact, it's the lowest level of difficulty so people can experience it. Since they think it's the intended difficulty because of the name, they then go out and complain how the raids are far too easy and the swtor raid design team doesn't know how to design a raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longport Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 People play that mode and see it's called normal and think that it's the intended difficulty level of the operation when in fact, it's the lowest level of difficulty so people can experience it. Since they think it's the intended difficulty because of the name, they then go out and complain how the raids are far too easy and the swtor raid design team doesn't know how to design a raid. If a raider can see the names "hard" and "nightmare" and goes into an operation on normal mode and concludes that TOR raiding has nothing to offer them, then they just aren't taking a moment to simply think. Changing the name for semantics' sake won't help these people. The vocal minority that you've noted on the various forums don't even represent even a fraction of hardcore raiders. Both hardcore and casual raiders who have done any research at all on operations have to see the three difficulty levels of operations and know what they entail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Bioware is just creating a new paradigm where casual raiders can experience end-game content. So you can make the more hardcore raiders happy by calling the first level of difficulty "easy." The problem is that such a term would be insulting to the casuals (who represent a FAR larger portion of the player-base) while also trivializing their accomplishment. Or you can keep the "normal" moniker which makes casuals happy with what they've done while the worst that it does for hardcore raiders is make them post comments on forums criticizing the difficulty of raids...when there are two raid levels of difficulty above the normal level to challenge them. Which is smarter? Also, if you start the naming convention at "Easy" a lot of players wil, most likely,l simply skip it for "Normal" mode which can create a problem of under-geared groups wiping because the "Normal" mode isn't actually "Normal", it's a Hard Mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genesiser Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Also, if you start the naming convention at "Easy" a lot of players wil, most likely,l simply skip it for "Normal" mode which can create a problem of under-geared groups wiping because the "Normal" mode isn't actually "Normal", it's a Hard Mode. That was the theory with LFR in wow and people still ran LFR to get the beginning gear before jumping into the normal raid. Also, people knew full well before they entered it that it was easy mode. People don't pass up the chance to get easy loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) So basically what you are saying is that you are uber leet hardcore raider and anyone who finds normal or hard mode ops challenging are noobs. He may not be, but I am. My first time through EV normal I was so unimpressed. Nobody in the raid even came close to dying during an actual fight, and we just ran through it balls first without any need to stop and think about what we were doing. Edited March 2, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 While true, it's not called hard for a reason, do you actually think if people completed say "easy" mode they would come onto the forums or go on other websites and complain that the new raid was easy? That's my whole point. Word gets out that raiding in swtor is a joke because it's so easy. The problem is people are completing easy mode when it's called normal mode and they think they are completing something that is intended to be a little difficult when in reality they are just getting through the introduction phase of the new raid. You can go on a number of websites and people say normal mode ops are easier than hard mode flash points. Perhaps if it was called easy mode they wouldn't have a problem with that. However currently, people find it laughable that a normal mode raid is easier than normal group content. SWTOR raiding is easy. Nightmare was completed the first or second week someone ever ran a group for it. You can complete normal, hard, and nightmare mode every week in a span of 3 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longport Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 He may not be, but I am. My first time through EV normal I was so unimpressed. Nobody in the raid even came close to dying during an actual fight, and we just ran through it balls first without any need to stop and think about what we were doing. And after playing that, for purposes of this thread, were you aware that there were two levels of difficulty above normal or did the naming of them confuse you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) And after playing that, for purposes of this thread, were you aware that there were two levels of difficulty above normal or did the naming of them confuse you? Yes, I was aware that there are 3 levels. It didn't confuse me, but hard mode was only marginally more difficult, and nightmare is more bugs than raid. Whatever they're named, they're all too easy. Edited March 2, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulmius Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Why worry about what other people feel they accomplished when they raid, and worry about what YOU feel you accomplished when YOU raid. This is really an argument in semantics and silly to boot. The idea that it's only "semantics" so it's no big deal is laughable at best. You ever hear the phrase, "Perception is reality"? Why do you think when people go on a date for the first time with someone they rarely show their true selves. They do it because they want the other person to perceive them a certain way. Perception can have a huge impact on how you see something. If you go to a party and you get super smashed and act like a total idiot, some people there may perceive you as a drunk and they won't want to have anything to do with you. Being perceived as a drunk has negative effects and the way people perceive you can have a major impact on you. When people see something labeled normal mode they don't initially think that it means it will be super easy and a walk in the park. However when completing the normal mode operation and have zero wipes and could have completed it with their eyes closed they get the perception that raiding in this game is a joke and the devs don't know what they are doing. However if they see the mode is easy or beginner difficulty they won't bat an eyelash when they run it and find out it's easy. Believe it or not, an mmorpg that has the perception that the raiding is super easy and is a joke can and does have a negative impact on the game. Sure, they completed the easy mode of the raid, but did they know it would be laughably easy when they started it when the mode was called normal? No, they didn't. That's why they complain raiding in this game is so easy, because of that simple "semantic" of calling it normal mode gives the perception that there would be some degree of challenge when in fact it's a complete joke in difficulty. The op is correct, they really need to change the name of the difficulties. In a genre where word of mouth can greatly impact the success or failure of a game, you don't want people to have a negative perception of raiding with people saying it's too easy and devs don't know how to design raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 That was the theory with LFR in wow and people still ran LFR to get the beginning gear before jumping into the normal raid. Also, people knew full well before they entered it that it was easy mode. People don't pass up the chance to get easy loot. I'm simply explaining a reason to use the current naming convention. What Blizzard did with WoW is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwamper Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 It's psychological. The easiest level of raids is called normal for the same reason drinks you buy in a movie theatre often start at 'regular' and not 'small'. Also, I 100% believe they could have a difficulty mode called "Utterly Impossible" and people would still sign up to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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