No more color restrictions on crystals ?! Really ?

[AJediKnight]

Now perhaps we can discuss the mechanic in SWTOR isn't ideal for Force Users. A more accurate simulation would be to have the DS/LS score more gradually impact the crystal's performance. A Light V Jedi would have a large penalty for wielding a red crystal; he could still use it, but it wouldn't be as effective.

 

Nothing in the canon supports that.

 

I challenge you to answer my last post. If GL wanted Sith to use red-only, it could have been done with ease. He didn't do it, so he doesn't care. Since he's the father of all this, I suggest you heed the will of the loremaster, who quite clearly doesn't give a damn about this business.

[JCommando]

Where is the article for this??

[Tuscad]

Where is the article for this??

 

Here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=337245

[Sylriana]

I'd also add a crafting component to it...but that's just me. Personally crafted sabers would be more effective as well.

 

Entirely offtopic. But I really wish they'd done something more with saber construction. Yeah, Jedi get a nice little cutscene on Tython.. but to me it just feels sort of... dirty that with how much emphasis other SW media place on an individual jedi's lightsaber that there's a good chance people will just toss it away in a few levels in favor of some other lightsaber they found in a box in a gangster's hideout ( or something )... Also the fact that there's no aesthetic customization for your weapon, outside of digging around for cool looking drops.

[Cerion]

But Lucas didn't do that.

 

.

 

Of course Lucas didn't do that, because it's been established that making your own saber takes a considerable amount of time...there's also quite a bit of ritual behind it. It's not like building a snap together model, lol.

[Cerion]

Le sigh, fine. Here's what Uncle George has to say about it.

 

http://www.supershadow.com/george_lucas/interview/32.html

 

 

See, specifically --

 

How about a reputable source? Like, say, the dvd extras in which George says "Good guys use blue and green, bad guys red."

[Tuscad]

Of course Lucas didn't do that, because it's been established that making your own saber takes a considerable amount of time...there's also quite a bit of ritual behind it. It's not like building a snap together model, lol.

 

In the Novel Riptide Jaden Korr is able to change the color of a color crystal from Red to Yellow by "purifying" it with the force, Darth Vader should have been able to do something similar to make his blue crystal a red.

[Gratulor]

Where does it say? How about in Attack of the Clones where the entire Jedi army is wielding Green or Blue sabers? If it were personal choice, or common, you'd think some of them would have had red, dontcha think? But no.

 

There is something to be said about symbolism. The Sith created synthetic lightsabre crystals of a red colour and used them against the Jedi for thousands of years before the Clone Wars. It became associated with the dark side, and obviously, Jedi wouldn't be carrying a symbol of evil into battle. They could, surely, but why would they wish to use something historically associated with the Sith?

 

And why did Darth Vader switch to a red blade? I think it's quite obvious that after thousands of years of Sith using the colour, it's become a tradition. His master uses red, and so did Plaguis, Tenebrous and Zannah. Bane used both purple and red. And then back all the way to the time of the game and 300 years before it.

 

Edit: and why would a Jedi who is on the dark side suddenly have to use a red crystal? Kind of an obvious way to tell the council about their alignment, don't you think?

Edited March 2, 2012 by Gratulor

[AJediKnight]

Of course Lucas didn't do that, because it's been established that making your own saber takes a considerable amount of time...there's also quite a bit of ritual behind it. It's not like building a snap together model, lol.

 

Really? Cause my character in TOR throws one together in the span of about 15 seconds.

 

And even if you decide that isn't factual, then why couldn't Sidious hand Anakin a pile of saber parts and say 'have at it'...? Or, as Tuscad suggested, why couldn't Sidious just lone him a spare?

 

Please try to think -- as Doc Brown put it -- fourth dimensionally here. The only reason Sidious is limited to two lightsabers in Ep. III is because Lucas made it so. If Lucas wanted to provide Sidious with a third spare just so he could hand it to Anakin, it could have been done.

 

As was stated previously, you're reaching. And, as I said a while ago, the only proof I need to dispell this nonsense is that Vader continues to use blue long after he is clearly quite darksided. You have absolutely no answer for that because it is a part of the core canon, which you proclaim to so religiously adhere to.

 

It's as if you attempted to prove me wrong by quoting a Bible verse, so I ripped the book out of your hand and smacked you with it. It's over. You are disarmed, and your weapon is in my hand.

Edited March 2, 2012 by AJediKnight

[Uruare]

How about a reputable source? Like, say, the dvd extras in which George says "Good guys use blue and green, bad guys red."

 

 

I'll concern myself with source-checking when I'm up for a peer review on something that matters.

 

This deserved about 20 seconds worth of googling and finding an interview germane to the topic. You want better, hire a research agency. As it stands...honestly, this is as anal-retentive a topic to get bent out of shape over as which is the right way to eat a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.

 

 

It makes no difference. They're colors. In a game. That you play.

 

Beyond that...*shrug*

[AJediKnight]

Edit: and why would a Jedi who is on the dark side suddenly have to use a red crystal? Kind of an obvious way to tell the council about their alignment, don't you think?

 

YES!

 

In a story-based MMO, one would think this would be a HUGE issue!

 

 

The entire time my Jedi is going darksided, she's trying to hide the fact that she's doing evil things. If red automatically meant darkside, as people have argued, wouldn't me whipping one out constantly kind of give my lies away?

 

I mean, you cannot have it both ways... if the red sabers mean something, then no Jedi can use one in TOR -- the story doesn't allow for the angst it would cause. However, if the crystals mean nothing (and that is how the Jedi in TOR seem to act), then the current system is stupid and pointless.

Edited March 2, 2012 by AJediKnight

[Cerion]

The part that's reaching is where you see something implicit ( the color of crystal that most sith and jedi in the films use ) and derive an explicit rule from it based on that observation alone ( even going so far as to outright ignore or dismiss counter-examples. ).

 

I haven't dismissed counter examples. What I have done is point out that these are exceptions to the rule. Because, in fact, there is a rule, an aesthetic rule and a storytelling rule. Playing against that rule makes those characters unique.

 

Removing restrictions does not promote uniqueness.

 

Let me see if I can clarify something that has gotten lost in this debate. I am against REMOVING the restrictions; I'm not against off-color usage per se. Right now people CAN use off-color crystals within the restrictions of the game. I've already said elsewhere that I myself have a Sith Warrior who is a Revenite who wields red and blue blades. He's able to do this because I've made the choice not to upgrade my red crystal. If I remove it, I won't be able to replace it with another red crystal. I think that's awesome, and fine. I'll gladly take the stat hit, the road less travelled, to be unique.

 

That decision is more in keeping with canon. Incentivizing the over arching aesthetic of Star Wars, but allowing for uniqueness to peek through via choices and consequences.

 

If BW replaced the crystal alignment tiers with a diminishing returns on off-color usage, that would work as well. It would create a world with more unique looks as players weigh the cost/benefit of their actions.

[AJediKnight]

I haven't dismissed counter examples. What I have done is point out that these are exceptions to the rule. Because, in fact, there is a rule, an aesthetic rule and a storytelling rule.

 

It is no rule at all if the very evidence you point to proclaiming it as a rule features contrary cues that signal that no rule, in fact, exists.

 

It's as if you set out to author a study that proved that black holes aren't real, and you instead conclusively proved that they are.

 

You cannot selectively cherry-pick from the movies. Your argument is akin to screaming that Mace Windu's purple saber doesn't really exist because it's the only one we see in the films. Yet, the evidence is right there, for all to see.

Edited March 2, 2012 by AJediKnight

[Dayfax]

Rare crystals are fine as long as anyone can get them.

 

If anyone can get them, they are, by definition, not rare.

[AJediKnight]

If anyone can get them, they are, by definition, not rare.

 

That's not true. The capacity for anyone to attain a crystal should always be there. What is missing is the will, and, in some cases, the funding.

 

This is what MMOs are all about. There's a carrot on a stick, and it's dangling for everyone to take a bite out of. You need to display a little fortitude to crane your neck that far, though.

[Dayfax]

Edit: and why would a Jedi who is on the dark side suddenly have to use a red crystal? Kind of an obvious way to tell the council about their alignment, don't you think?

 

Same can be said for darkside corruption. You show up at the council looking pasty with a condition that looks like herpes married a flesh eating bacteria, and none of the wise old masters on the council stops and says, "Uh, dude? What the hell happened to your face?"

[Cerion]

Grievous wasn't a force user and whether the lightsabers were stolen or not is irrelevant as Palpatine could clearly wield them despite them having a blue blade. Palpatine also clearly had time to swap the color crystal from blue to red.

 

At what penalty though? We know that crafted sabers are always more effective than stolen. And on top of that, it's freakin Palpatine. If he can come back from the dead (albeit a clone), I'm sure at his power level, he can compensate for any negative impact. We've already been over the acknowledge fact that exceptions exist in the Star Wars universe.

 

Exceptions, that if imported unchecked into MMO, become commonplace, and thus pedestrian. Making the exception the rule is rather ludicrous.

[Tuscad]

At what penalty though? We know that crafted sabers are always more effective than stolen. And on top of that, it's freakin Palpatine. If he can come back from the dead (albeit a clone), I'm sure at his power level, he can compensate for any negative impact. We've already been over the acknowledge fact that exceptions exist in the Star Wars universe.

 

Exceptions, that if imported unchecked into MMO, become commonplace, and thus pedestrian. Making the exception the rule is rather ludicrous.

 

 

And where has it ever been stated in the movies that a stolen lightsaber is less effective than a crafted lightsaber?

Edited March 2, 2012 by Tuscad

[Cerion]

In the Novel Riptide Jaden Korr is able to change the color of a color crystal from Red to Yellow by "purifying" it with the force, Darth Vader should have been able to do something similar to make his blue crystal a red.

 

Well, he didn't at the time...what does that prove? He eventually takes a red saber. If he could choose any color, and it was indeed a personal choice, why not greenish/hazel, the color of Pame's eyes, lol. Or pink, or black like his heart.

 

If it's all a choice, why aren't the stories rife with a rainbow saber colors, and unicorn tassels on their hilts, lol. They're not. The stories are punctuated with exceptions to the rule, a rule, without which the exceptions would have been meaningless and bland.

[Tuscad]

Well, he didn't at the time...what does that prove? He eventually takes a red saber. If he could choose any color, and it was indeed a personal choice, why not greenish/hazel, the color of Pame's eyes, lol. Or pink, or black like his heart.

 

If it's all a choice, why aren't the stories rife with a rainbow saber colors, and unicorn tassels on their hilts, lol. They're not. The stories are punctuated with exceptions to the rule, a rule, without which the exceptions would have been meaningless and bland.

 

Can you prove to me that any Star Wars character wanted their lightsaber to be rainbow colored? Unicorns don't exist in Star Wars by the way, so that is moot. You are now fishing.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Tuscad

[Cerion]

It is no rule at all if the very evidence you point to proclaiming it as a rule features contrary cues that signal that no rule, in fact, exists.

 

It's as if you set out to author a study that proved that black holes aren't real, and you instead conclusively proved that they are.

 

You cannot selectively cherry-pick from the movies. Your argument is akin to screaming that Mace Windu's purple saber doesn't really exist because it's the only one we see in the films. Yet, the evidence is right there, for all to see.

 

No. What I'm doing is using evidence from the EU that these exceptions exist. You're trying to say that exceptions PROVE the rule, which is a logical fallacy.

 

George Lucas, in his dvd commentary, even says that Good guys wield green/blue, bad guys wield red. He made an exception for Jackson. An EXCEPTION, which implies it's not normal. I don't know how more clear I can be.

[xxdragonragexx]

I'm pretty sure that the color of the crystal has nothing to do with your alignment to the force.

Lucas has stated that a long time ago.

 

He also said that they made the red color to be sith in the movies just to clearly define which guys are sith for the kiddies - Like literally less than 15 year old children.

[Cerion]

Edit: and why would a Jedi who is on the dark side suddenly have to use a red crystal? Kind of an obvious way to tell the council about their alignment, don't you think?

 

 

I've already addressed this issue elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here: Is this the first thing you've discovered in the Star Wars Universe that doesn't make sense, or the only one? LOL. Because, there are quite a few logical inconsistencies documented. That doesn't take away from the aesthetic, storytelling point of Good Guys: blue/green; bad guys: red.

[Dayfax]

That's not true. The capacity for anyone to attain a crystal should always be there. What is missing is the will, and, in some cases, the funding.[/Quote]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only barrier here is money, correct? That makes new crystals expensive, but not rare.

 

I've haven't followed along closely, but from the sound of it these items will be available to any level 10 bank toon with the right capital.

 

Rare would be Baron Rivendare's mount or Mimiron's Head: items that appear in game, available to specific levels of player, and are difficult to get through some form of gating (low drop rates, heroic modes).

 

This is what MMOs are all about. There's a carrot on a stick, and it's dangling for everyone to take a bite out of. You need to display a little fortitude to crane your neck that far, though.

 

Agreed. I guess I'm nit picking the way they're going about it. Given that credits are easy to come by in this game, I wish they made the crystals actually rare than commonplace.

 

PS: I've enjoyed reading your posts, so please excuse the pedantry of this reply.

[Erishumlol]

Red/Imps while blue - green/Pubs only, the rest can be used by both factions imo. Edited March 2, 2012 by Erishumlol