Why Thermal Detonator is heat heavy

[Jabbb]

I'm seeing a lot of responses to non 31 pyros (8 8 25 deep burn) that seem to think that pyro is not heat heavy and don't understand why you would abandon it.

 

The reason 25 pyro specs are viable over 31 is two fold:

 

 

1) You gain more crit and aim increasing the dmg of all of your abilities across the board

 

2) TD uses a lot of heat compared to abilities other than IM (Which you shouldnt use without Thermal sensor override/at a range)

 

 

So why does Thermal Detonator use so much heat? It's 16 heat just like flame burst and rocket punch right?

 

Well, Flame burst (FB) and Rocket Punch (RP) use 16 heat on use but each give a 30% chance of a free railshot which costs 0 heat and also refunds 8 heat

 

since it takes a GCD it spends 1.5 seconds not doing anything else which at 5 heat per second results in a refund of 7.5 heat, for a total of 15.5 heat refund.

 

Thus Flame burst has an effective heat cost of: 11.35 heat

Rocket Punch has an effective heat cost of: 9.025 heat

while TD remains at an effective heat cost of 16 heat

 

This is the real advantage at forgoing Thermal detonator the difference between it and a FB is 5 heat which can push you into non 5heat/second regen and force autoattacks to keep heat down.

[Wolfninjajedi]

It also has the word "Thermal" in it...which has associated itself with heat. Edited March 2, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[theangryllama]

Ummm TD takes a GCD to throw as well so its still the same 'effective heat' as the other 2.

 

You would always use RP over TD.

 

You would always use TD if you are in not in range for FB.

 

If your in FB range it then comes down to personal preference. Same heat cost and your trading either 30% chance for a rail shot proc vs almost 2x the damage (if it crits it will double due to the 30% extra on crits).

 

All depends on how lucky you feel really doesnt it

Edited March 2, 2012 by theangryllama

[Varicite]

I'm seeing a lot of responses to non 31 pyros (8 8 25 deep burn) that seem to think that pyro is not heat heavy and don't understand why you would abandon it.

 

The reason 25 pyro specs are viable over 31 is two fold:

 

 

1) You gain more crit and aim increasing the dmg of all of your abilities across the board

 

2) TD uses a lot of heat compared to abilities other than IM (Which you shouldnt use without Thermal sensor override/at a range)

 

 

So why does Thermal Detonator use so much heat? It's 16 heat just like flame burst and rocket punch right?

 

Well, Flame burst (FB) and Rocket Punch (RP) use 16 heat on use but each give a 30% chance of a free railshot which costs 0 heat and also refunds 8 heat

 

since it takes a GCD it spends 1.5 seconds not doing anything else which at 5 heat per second results in a refund of 7.5 heat, for a total of 15.5 heat refund.

 

Thus Flame burst has an effective heat cost of: 11.35 heat

Rocket Punch has an effective heat cost of: 9.025 heat

while TD remains at an effective heat cost of 16 heat

 

This is the real advantage at forgoing Thermal detonator the difference between it and a FB is 5 heat which can push you into non 5heat/second regen and force autoattacks to keep heat down.

 

I just find that an extra 1-2k every 15 seconds (IF it crits, also mitigated by armor) is not worth giving up the utility found in other trees.

 

You can get the majority of benefit from the Pyro tree by going 25 in.

 

ED + RS will still give you a small burst, if you need it.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Varicite

[Jabbb]

Ummm TD takes a GCD to throw as well so its still the same 'effective heat' as the other 2.

 

You would always use RP over TD.

 

You would always use TD if you are in not in range for FB.

 

If your in FB range it then comes down to personal preference. Same heat cost and your trading either 30% chance for a rail shot proc vs almost 2x the damage (if it crits it will double due to the 30% extra on crits).

 

All depends on how lucky you feel really doesnt it

 

I'm talking about the GCD used by the railshot, not the GCD used by FB/TD so no its not the same effective heat.

 

I did not include the heat lost during the Thermal detonator or Flame burst as they would cancel out.

[AetherMcLoud]

For PVE, sure TD is probably not worth it.

For PVP though TD is massive burst.

[exphryl]

I'm seeing a lot of responses to non 31 pyros (8 8 25 deep burn) that seem to think that pyro is not heat heavy and don't understand why you would abandon it.

 

The reason 25 pyro specs are viable over 31 is two fold:

 

Viable yes. Over 31 is your opinion.

 

 

1) You gain more crit and aim increasing the dmg of all of your abilities across the board

 

It's a minimal amount of crit. Nothing to write home about. Especially with just two points. Hell, with 3 points i my full Rakata Gear it's not even a full % increase. Damage (Taking rail shot) at 3 points for me is adding 69 Damage to the attack. (My max self buffed Railshot in 3/3 is 2022, where as using a 31 TD Build it drops down to 1953)

 

2 Points (i.e an 8/8/25 build) would be even lower.

 

2) TD uses a lot of heat compared to abilities other than IM (Which you shouldnt use without Thermal sensor override/at a range)

 

No, it doesn't. If it used the same heat as IM it would be somewhat plausible to your argument.

 

In general, the more I see you post about your spec and put down the 31 Pyro spec, the more I begin to realize you have zero knowledge of how to actually use TD.

 

It is NOT an ability you fit in to a rotation. It's an ability used to provide extra burst when you need it most. That's it. There is not a single other spec that provides nearly as much burst as TD. PvP is clearly not PvE where sustained damage rules, it's about killing your opponent quickly and bypassing most of his defenses. TD is most effectively used when you have fuel/relics available to maximize the damage potential.

 

It's also used in scenarios where grapple is on cooldown and you have an Inq/consular speeding away and you want to try to squeeze out a bit more damage before they are fully out of range. Seeing a 4K to 5k Crit halfway across the map makes me smile.

 

You are also under the assumption in your posts you will always get a railshot proc. They are nice, don't get me wrong. But they aren't a guarantee. So your "effective heat" is worthless if you don't get a single proc as you work your way up to full heat. In that single scenario replacing a single FB with TD would guess what, give you more damage.

Edited March 2, 2012 by exphryl

[Sykomyke]

Viable yes. Over 31 is your opinion.

 

 

 

It's a minimal amount of crit. Nothing to write home about. Especially with just two points. Hell, with 3 points i my full Rakata Gear it's not even a full % increase. Damage (Taking rail shot) at 3 points for me is adding 69 Damage to the attack. (My max self buffed Railshot in 3/3 is 2022, where as using a 31 TD Build it drops down to 1953)

 

2 Points (i.e an 8/8/25 build) would be even lower.

 

 

 

No, it doesn't. If it used the same heat as IM it would be somewhat plausible to your argument.

 

In general, the more I see you post about your spec and put down the 31 Pyro spec, the more I begin to realize you have zero knowledge of how to actually use TD.

 

It is NOT an ability you fit in to a rotation. It's an ability used to provide extra burst when you need it most. That's it. There is not a single other spec that provides nearly as much burst as TD. PvP is clearly not PvE where sustained damage rules, it's about killing your opponent quickly and bypassing most of his defenses. TD is most effectively used when you have fuel/relics available to maximize the damage potential.

 

It's also used in scenarios where grapple is on cooldown and you have an Inq/consular speeding away and you want to try to squeeze out a bit more damage before they are fully out of range. Seeing a 4K to 5k Crit halfway across the map makes me smile.

 

You are also under the assumption in your posts you will always get a railshot proc. They are nice, don't get me wrong. But they aren't a guarantee. So your "effective heat" is worthless if you don't get a single proc as you work your way up to full heat. In that single scenario replacing a single FB with TD would guess what, give you more damage.

 

 

You know. I'm going to paraphrase the latest episode of the Walking Dead for you here:

 

"You're right, but you ever think of using a lighter touch?...You were correct in all the situations, but your delivery leaves something to be desired."

 

In short: there's no need to come off as snarky to the OP. He's stating his opinion, there's no need for you to bite his head off because he believes that overall generating less heat is more effective form of PvP to him.

[exphryl]

 

In short: there's no need to come off as snarky to the OP. He's stating his opinion, there's no need for you to bite his head off because he believes that overall generating less heat is more effective form of PvP to him.

 

You may call it snarky, I call it this is the third thread he's started on this build of his in some capacity....(I.e stating TD builds are horrible)

 

I am also for opinions. But opinions stated as fact are two different things.

 

And I am merely offering counter arguments to the post

Edited March 2, 2012 by exphryl

[Eroex]

I just find that an extra 1-2k every 15 seconds (IF it crits, also mitigated by armor) is not worth giving up the utility found in other trees.

 

You can get the majority of benefit from the Pyro tree by going 25 in.

 

ED + RS will still give you a small burst, if you need it.

 

My thermal det crits for 5k+ regularly in raids.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The rest of the post doesnt really apply to the quote

 

We have the bosses armor at 0% for pretty close to 100% of the fight. (obviously after they applied from mercs and jug tank)

 

if 2 mercs

+2 snipers

+1 jug tank

0% boss armor

 

 

Why wouldn't you spec out of prototype cylinders, puncture and hot iron and pick up automated defenses (makes like every other IM free), burnout, 9% aim and TD? The devs based the damage for TD, FB, and IM on armor reduction being a factor, when its not TD does a huge amount of damage.

 

Given that, show why this spec isn't worth it.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMZfhrbzGhrs.1

 

 

Don't bring any BS nonsense like it being a DPS loss to stack the armor debuff or something equally stupid like the last post I talked about this in.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=311970&page=2

Edited March 2, 2012 by Eroex

[Agooz]

My thermal det crits for 5k+ regularly in raids.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The rest of the post doesnt really apply to the quote

 

We have the bosses armor at 0% for pretty close to 100% of the fight. (obviously after they applied from mercs and jug tank)

 

if 2 mercs

+2 snipers

+1 jug tank

0% boss armor

 

 

Why wouldn't you spec out of prototype cylinders, puncture and hot iron and pick up automated defenses (makes like every other IM free), burnout, 9% aim and TD? The devs based the damage for TD, FB, and IM on armor reduction being a factor, when its not TD does a huge amount of damage.

 

Given that, show why this spec isn't worth it.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMZfhrbzGhrs.1

 

 

Don't bring any BS nonsense like it being a DPS loss to stack the armor debuff or something equally stupid like the last post I talked about this in.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=311970&page=2

 

With all due respect, the 0 armor on Bosses argument is getting very old. When the game content becomes predominantly 16man raids, and have 2 snipers, 2 mercs, 1 jugg as a given, then I'll listen.

 

But when the vast majority of PTs' time is spent running HM FPs, 8man raids, dailies, a little PvP on the side why in the world would they consider speccing out of the railshots armor penetration?

[Eroex]

With all due respect, the 0 armor on Bosses argument is getting very old. When the game content becomes predominantly 16man raids, and have 2 snipers, 2 mercs, 1 jugg as a given, then I'll listen.

 

So your only complaint is that your raid isn't set up to do max DPS?

 

It doesn't have to be the raid set up I listed all it has to have is the correct number of armor debuffs. Even if you only have 4 debuffs the spec would still be a DPS increase.

 

 

But when the vast majority of PTs' time is spent running HM FPs, 8man raids, dailies, a little PvP on the side why in the world would they consider speccing out of the railshots armor penetration?

 

What does this have to do with doing max DPS in a raid situation? Seems like you wont respec because you want to do more DPS while doing dailies or not respecing from a PVP spec to raid. Sounds like a casual attitude that has no place commenting on doing max DPS in raid situations.

[Jabbb]

You may call it snarky, I call it this is the third thread he's started on this build of his in some capacity....(I.e stating TD builds are horrible)

 

I am also for opinions. But opinions stated as fact are two different things.

 

And I am merely offering counter arguments to the post

 

I have never stated TD builds are "horrible" just that there is an argument for not using TD. This is the argument.

[Hoyter]

Okay I am not that experienced in the world of BH or PT but I can say this, if you lack the ability to be flexible with your toon in pvp it doesn't matter what rotation you have because in the end you'll just get shanked by a stealth class. Edited March 2, 2012 by Hoyter

[Varicite]

My thermal det crits for 5k+ regularly in raids.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The rest of the post doesnt really apply to the quote

 

We have the bosses armor at 0% for pretty close to 100% of the fight. (obviously after they applied from mercs and jug tank)

 

if 2 mercs

+2 snipers

+1 jug tank

0% boss armor

 

 

Why wouldn't you spec out of prototype cylinders, puncture and hot iron and pick up automated defenses (makes like every other IM free), burnout, 9% aim and TD? The devs based the damage for TD, FB, and IM on armor reduction being a factor, when its not TD does a huge amount of damage.

 

Given that, show why this spec isn't worth it.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMZfhrbzGhrs.1

 

 

Don't bring any BS nonsense like it being a DPS loss to stack the armor debuff or something equally stupid like the last post I talked about this in.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=311970&page=2

 

I really only PvP. I would definitely run a 4/6/31 build for PvE if I were serious about my dps, however.

 

My TD only crits 3.5-4k~, while Explosive Dart crits somewhere around 2-2.5k~ in PvP. 1.5-2k extra damage every 15 seconds isn't going to kill anyone, but getting in an extra interrupt, or clutch Grapple can make a lot of difference, imo. Not to mention that I can literally interrupt 2x for every single TD cd, so I feel like I get more mileage out of being more of a hybrid.

 

But hey, it's all about playstyle. I am just more comfortable controlling the situation personally than hoping for a crit whenever my Explosive Fuel is on cd.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Varicite

[exphryl]

I really only PvP. I would definitely run a 4/6/31 build for PvE if I were serious about my dps, however.

 

My TD only crits 3.5-4k~, while Explosive Dart crits somewhere around 2-2.5k~ in PvP. 1.5-2k extra damage every 15 seconds isn't going to kill anyone, but getting in an extra interrupt, or clutch Grapple can make a lot of difference, imo.

 

TD isn't about that "extra damage every 15 seconds". Like I stated earlier even i rarely use as part of a rotation. It does however shine, when it's coupled with a full assault of all your other abilities for maximum burst. That's where it shows that extra 2k makes a huge impact. (Normally when you really want a healer dead and you have your relics/adrenal available)

Edited March 3, 2012 by exphryl

[Varicite]

TD isn't about that "extra damage every 15 seconds". Like I stated earlier even i rarely use as part of a rotation. It does however shine, when it's coupled with a full assault of all your other abilities for maximum burst. That's where it shows that extra 2k makes a huge impact. (Normally when you really want a healer dead and you have your relics/adrenal available)

 

Oh, I totally understand this.

 

I just don't feel that the extra 1.5-2k is the "gamebreaker" when it comes to needing to burst anyone down. The real "gamebreaker" is the 30% surge talent for Rail Shot combined w/ PPA, if you ask me, and this coupled w/ the utility from AP and decent awareness will have most classes pushing up daisies w/out too much trouble.

 

I have played predominately w/out TD (Run 'N Gun spec, AP, and now 2/12/26) and w/ my current spec, I honestly have had 0 problems killing anything outside of very good Commando healers, hard-hitting dps Shadows, and Watchman Sents if one of my stuns is on cd.

 

I have a good amount of experience in killing people at every gear level, and I just don't find the extra "oomph" from TD to be all that important generally. Anything that TD might kill, I was already pretty much guaranteed to kill anyway.

 

Edit: I guess I should say, TD is a great ability, and I certainly WOULD take it if I could grab both that and the Hitman talent, but alas I cannot. And Hitman is far more valuable in my experience, as one of my primary duties is killing enemy healers.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Varicite

[Agooz]

So your only complaint is that your raid isn't set up to do max DPS?

 

It doesn't have to be the raid set up I listed all it has to have is the correct number of armor debuffs. Even if you only have 4 debuffs the spec would still be a DPS increase.

 

 

 

 

What does this have to do with doing max DPS in a raid situation? Seems like you wont respec because you want to do more DPS while doing dailies or not respecing from a PVP spec to raid. Sounds like a casual attitude that has no place commenting on doing max DPS in raid situations.

 

I am sorry I thought I was being extremely clear, but apparently not to an elitest raider it seems.

I am definitely commenting on max dps, as so are you. The only difference is, your comment pertains to max dps on ONE specific condition (and still debatable), one that is hardly experienced by the majority of PTs. Mine on the other hand is more relevant to everyday gameplay of pretty much most PTs, even raid situation where the majority are running 8man raids. So if there is an attitude that has no place commenting, I would argue that would be yours. But again unlike you, I wouldnt suggest that.

[Eroex]

I am sorry I thought I was being extremely clear, but apparently not to an elitest raider it seems.

I am definitely commenting on max dps, as so are you. The only difference is, your comment pertains to max dps on ONE specific condition (and still debatable), one that is hardly experienced by the majority of PTs. Mine on the other hand is more relevant to everyday gameplay of pretty much most PTs, even raid situation where the majority are running 8man raids. So if there is an attitude that has no place commenting, I would argue that would be yours. But again unlike you, I wouldnt suggest that.

 

Look I was hardcore against TD being in my rotation at all because I ran a pyro spec without TD. Until I looked at the evidence that was shown on all the 3rd party sites then tried it myself. I've seen both sides and using the spec I'm suggesting vs not using it, I see no difference in the amount of time it takes to kill things in PVP, while questing, or 4 man flashpoints, but in raids it really shines. Almost all serious 3rd party site, supports TD being used.

 

You don't need a combat log to do the numbers there are people with far more time on their hands than you or me that record the data and run the numbers from the SCT.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Eroex